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What's funny about INTP guys is that they want you to be clingy (if you weren't they'd flip out). But they will never reciprocate the kind of behavior they expect from you.

In some ways, it seems sexist, at times.
It's not that we want clingyness, it is that we may prefer that course of action because it proves you actually care and puts half of our doubts to rest. It is insecurity on our part. If we cannot see you care, we are left to speculate you really don't and have an alternative motive. And the reasoning we don't reciprocate is rather obvious. We are us.
 

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It's not that we want clingyness, it is that we may prefer that course of action because it proves you actually care and puts half of our doubts to rest. It is insecurity on our part. If we cannot see you care, we are left to speculate you really don't and have an alternative motive. And the reasoning we don't reciprocate is rather obvious. We are us.
That doesn't fly in relationship land.

You're going to have some really rude wake up calls if you think it will.
 

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It's not that we want clingyness, it is that we may prefer that course of action because it proves you actually care and puts half of our doubts to rest. It is insecurity on our part. If we cannot see you care, we are left to speculate you really don't and have an alternative motive. And the reasoning we don't reciprocate is rather obvious. We are us.
I'm dittoing @nadjasix on this one. As I mentioned on another thread, if you can't step outside of your comfort zone a bit for the person you love, what good is love? It's an inherently vulnerable position for both parties, and it's unfair to put all of that insecurity and vulnerability on a patner's shoulders when you expect her to ease your own.

I'm not saying YOU do this personally; I'm just responding to your argument.
 

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That doesn't fly in relationship land.

You're going to have some really rude wake up calls if you think it will.
By reciprocate, I was referring to the intensity of the previous action (the clinginess). INTPs have their own way of showing affection...it just isn't as intense (at least for me).
 

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By reciprocate, I was referring to the intensity of the previous action (the clinginess). INTPs have their own way of showing affection...it just isn't as intense (at least for me).
What ends up happening, at least for me, is that it becomes patently obvious that I like the guy way more than he likes me, because he is on my mind and I let him know it. So I decide to end things before I can hurt myself by hoping he will ever bother to care, then I find out months later that he was devastated because he was totally in love with me. I can't blame myself for that since he never showed it. It was like he WANTED me to be more on the hook; it's a power thing. It's happened to me several times and I wish it hadn't because they were great guys I really could have forged a serious long-term relationship with, if they had just been willing to show me they noticed my existence when I wasn't right in front of them. And naked.
 

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By reciprocate, I was referring to the intensity of the previous action (the clinginess). INTPs have their own way of showing affection...it just isn't as intense (at least for me).
*opens up the escape hatch*

this might be a good place to segue into the miscommunication some intp may have... exhibiting and dealing with romantic gestures.

Whether they're emotionally and socially stunted or simply unaware how much those little (and sometimes big) gestures make a difference... where I ends and where we begins... discovering the balance between mutual boundaries and expectations.
 

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Want to have relationship. How do?
You must be more specific, sir. With a PerC member or with someone local to you? They can't help you unless you drill it down to the bottom bottom bottom-most detail.
 

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What's funny about INTP guys is that they want you to be clingy (if you weren't they'd flip out). But they will never reciprocate the kind of behavior they expect from you.

In some ways, it seems sexist, at times.
Clingy women? No, no, no!

I like to go do things by myself. That means taking a day-long road-trip (or maybe several days) without her so I can get away and think without interaction or distractions.
 

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If we don't talk much or give you all the attention you seek, it does not mean that we aren't interested. If we aren't interested, you'd definitely know. I can't speak for the rest but I suck at pretending to be interested in a relationship.
See, that to me is ambiguous. Not talking much and not paying attention, to me, are signs of lack of interest. And from the threads I've seen spawn up, this appears to be the major issue, how to tell regular interested I'm-not-paying-attention-to-you to the kind caused by lack of interest. Can anyone shade this out for me, please?
@Marimeli: I will do my best. Disclaimer: I speak from personal experience and little else, so trust me at your own risk.


First of all, we INTPs are not naturally inclined to pay attention to other people. When we are thinking about something (which we almost always are), we will have a tendency to focus on that something and whatever tangents come up. We could sit in a room for hours and not notice almost any aspect of our surroundings, including the people.

This changes somewhat when we are interested in someone. Then,
1) the tangents mentioned above will often lead to them, and
2) They become the subject of our thoughts much more frequently.

So, if you notice an INTP paying attention to you, it is likely the case that they are interested in you for some reason. It could be that they like you, or it could be something else (for example, something you said piped their curiosity), but the former will tend to be the case for longer periods of time.

Having said that, even if we like you (and are consequently paying attention to you), we often lack the experience necessary to properly make use of these observations, especially when it comes to body language / emotional queues / etc. And even if we do come to the right conclusions, were are lightly to not trust them, due to aforementioned lack of experience. This means two things for you:
1) Subtle doesn't really work with INTPs. Subtle hard for us to pick up, and even when we do pick it up, hard for us to put significant faith in, so we both prefer and are much better at straightforward interactions.
2) Just because an INTP is not picking up "obvious" things about you does not mean they are not paying attention. Often, it means that these things are not as obvious to the INTP, and they think that if you wanted them to know something, you would tell them (and from their perspective, the way you are communicating it doesn't count).


So although paying attention is very much a measure of interest for INTPs, you might not always be aware that we are paying attention to you. And certainly, we can be paying attention to you without "give[ing] you all the attention you seek", which is what Ishan Jalan mentions in the passage you quote him on.




I've never felt like INTPs were emotionless. But I have known some who were sort of in a bubble. Maybe they can tend to forget that the things they say or do have emotional consequences for others in ways that the sme things might not for them, like the example above with the shirt. Like people shouldn't fish for compliments, but in my experience when they DO start fishing it's because they don't feel like they're being noticed, right? So you an cut off some of those annoying behaviors in others by thinking ahead of them
You are completely right, though perhaps you underestimate the extent to which this is the case. It isn't so much that we forget that "things [we] say or do have emotional consequences for others"; it is that this often does not register AT ALL. You list yourself as an INFP, so that would make your first function Fi. This makes you keenly aware of what individual characteristics drive people in different directions, as can be seen from your post: "Like people shouldn't fish for compliments, but in my experience when they DO start fishing it's because they don't feel like they're being noticed, right? So you [can] cut off some of those annoying behaviors in others by thinking ahead of them".

See, the "thinking ahead of them" thing you mentioned is a natural solid Fi ability; putting yourself in someone else's shoes and seeing how they would feel about different things. WE DON'T DO THAT. Or rather, we can, but it takes considerable effort and focus, and it isn't something which comes naturally.

This, by the way, is a major problem for us in close relationships, both romantic and platonic. The people close to use perceive our behavior as not caring, when in fact it is not understanding. Though to be fair, tin many circumstances, that is bad enough.



That's my 2 cents. For the record, I'm quite curious as to whether it matches the experiences of other INTPs (and non INTPs, for that matter).
 

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@ Lozan:

That was a well-reasoned and thorough post, and I highly appreciate both the candor and the thoughfulness with which it was excuted. Subtlety has never been a strong suit of mine, so that has probably been what allowed me to have as many long-term relationships with INTPs as I have; I'm pretty much a "what you see is what you get" kind of girl. And I'm sort of new to the idea that putting yourself in someone else's shoes is a cognitive function ability; I have always thought it was sort of a matter of common courtesy that we always try to instill in children: "do unto others," "walk a mile in someone else's moccasins," "how would you feel if..." and the like. So of course when someone shows a (perceived) complete lack of interest in how I might feel about or be affected by something, I naturally would chalk it up to lack of interest.

One thing I WILL say for the record is that INTPs can remember the strangest things that might mean something to a partner. It might not be the thing that constantly bothers you that you wish they would anticipate, but it might be that one time you went to a park and you were delighted by the ducks on the pond and waxing poetic about the shapes of the ripples on the water, and they might bring you a calendar of ducks and water scenes like eight months later for Christmas. Er... that's a made-up completely hypoethetical story. And I think regardless, this is yet ANOTHER example of why open communication is absolutely essential to any relationship--ESPECIALLY when it is not comfortable for you to engage in it (simply because it's something that has to be developed for a relationship to work).

Thank you again ;)
 

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@Marimeli: I will do my best. Disclaimer: I speak from personal experience and little else, so trust me at your own risk.


First of all, we INTPs are not naturally inclined to pay attention to other people. When we are thinking about something (which we almost always are), we will have a tendency to focus on that something and whatever tangents come up. We could sit in a room for hours and not notice almost any aspect of our surroundings, including the people.

This changes somewhat when we are interested in someone. Then,
1) the tangents mentioned above will often lead to them, and
2) They become the subject of our thoughts much more frequently.

So, if you notice an INTP paying attention to you, it is likely the case that they are interested in you for some reason. It could be that they like you, or it could be something else (for example, something you said piped their curiosity), but the former will tend to be the case for longer periods of time.

Having said that, even if we like you (and are consequently paying attention to you), we often lack the experience necessary to properly make use of these observations, especially when it comes to body language / emotional queues / etc. And even if we do come to the right conclusions, were are lightly to not trust them, due to aforementioned lack of experience. This means two things for you:
1) Subtle doesn't really work with INTPs. Subtle hard for us to pick up, and even when we do pick it up, hard for us to put significant faith in, so we both prefer and are much better at straightforward interactions.
2) Just because an INTP is not picking up "obvious" things about you does not mean they are not paying attention. Often, it means that these things are not as obvious to the INTP, and they think that if you wanted them to know something, you would tell them (and from their perspective, the way you are communicating it doesn't count).


So although paying attention is very much a measure of interest for INTPs, you might not always be aware that we are paying attention to you. And certainly, we can be paying attention to you without "give[ing] you all the attention you seek", which is what Ishan Jalan mentions in the passage you quote him on.






You are completely right, though perhaps you underestimate the extent to which this is the case. It isn't so much that we forget that "things [we] say or do have emotional consequences for others"; it is that this often does not register AT ALL. You list yourself as an INFP, so that would make your first function Fi. This makes you keenly aware of what individual characteristics drive people in different directions, as can be seen from your post: "Like people shouldn't fish for compliments, but in my experience when they DO start fishing it's because they don't feel like they're being noticed, right? So you [can] cut off some of those annoying behaviors in others by thinking ahead of them".

See, the "thinking ahead of them" thing you mentioned is a natural solid Fi ability; putting yourself in someone else's shoes and seeing how they would feel about different things. WE DON'T DO THAT. Or rather, we can, but it takes considerable effort and focus, and it isn't something which comes naturally.

This, by the way, is a major problem for us in close relationships, both romantic and platonic. The people close to use perceive our behavior as not caring, when in fact it is not understanding. Though to be fair, tin many circumstances, that is bad enough.



That's my 2 cents. For the record, I'm quite curious as to whether it matches the experiences of other INTPs (and non INTPs, for that matter).


This has got to be the best explanation I have ever read for this issue. I mean, people come on this forum and bitch about the lack of interest thing all the time and it has never really been dissected so much to where I can actually understand.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
What's funny about INTP guys is that they want you to be clingy (if you weren't they'd flip out). But they will never reciprocate the kind of behavior they expect from you.

In some ways, it seems sexist, at times.
Gawd. After I broke up with one of them, I said to him "well it must be a relief not to have me doting on you and doing things for you all the time." Well, it was uncharacteristic of me but I just really loved him, but he acted both like he wanted it, but also pissy when I would do it. Only after we broke up did he miss it, and say he couldn't live without it. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu~
 

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What's funny about INTP guys is that they want you to be clingy (if you weren't they'd flip out). But they will never reciprocate the kind of behavior they expect from you.

In some ways, it seems sexist, at times.
I actually kind of relate to this. I have wanted girlfriends to be clingy. Actually, I can be pretty clingy, and am usually the more clingy in the pair, but the last time it started out with me being clingy and ended with me wanting her undivided attention but being myself sort of reluctant to satisfy her wants of my undivided attention. Yeah, that was unfair of me. Not quite sure why it happened, because I'm nearly always the more demonstrative one.

I can't do relationships these days... It... freaks me out.
 

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Gawd. After I broke up with one of them, I said to him "well it must be a relief not to have me doting on you and doing things for you all the time." Well, it was uncharacteristic of me but I just really loved him, but he acted both like he wanted it, but also pissy when I would do it. Only after we broke up did he miss it, and say he couldn't live without it. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu~
Omg yes. :)
 

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What's funny about INTP guys is that they want you to be clingy (if you weren't they'd flip out). But they will never reciprocate the kind of behavior they expect from you.

In some ways, it seems sexist, at times.
Really? Thanks for the heads up. Since I haven't been in a relationship yet in life, I may yet find a way to avoid making such an unusual mistake. That is if I can actually get into a relationship.
 

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I actually kind of relate to this. I have wanted girlfriends to be clingy. Actually, I can be pretty clingy, and am usually the more clingy in the pair, but the last time it started out with me being clingy and ended with me wanting her undivided attention but being myself sort of reluctant to satisfy her wants of my undivided attention. Yeah, that was unfair of me. Not quite sure why it happened, because I'm nearly always the more demonstrative one.

I can't do relationships these days... It... freaks me out.
My feelings exactly. So, when I read about INTPs being overly aloof, I doubt my Type.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
Ahh.. and not to mention the only hearing complaints/negativity when anything was the least bit imperfect, but never a compliment/any positiveness when I'd gotten things incredibly wonderfully damn-near-perfect. Does wonders for the self-esteem!
 
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