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Discussion Starter #1
So to those of you who've been in an enjoyable infj/estp relationship what was it like starting up?

Most of the gals I've gone for were INFJ's. Typically what happens is they tend to watch me from far away. Suddenly I find myself watching them as well. Then we tend to have distant staring matches across the room. This tends to become a problem because the initial trend for our relationship is avoiding each other and staring, and seems to only make the ice thicker.

Anyway after I get past that awkward stage we start awkwardly talking to one another, and I have to come up with 5 million topics of conversation that will all be run through in a matter of seconds but for some reason I won't be completely disheartened.

Eventually we start having actual conversation.

Then at some point the INFJ opens up pandora's box and starts revealing her true self. This is usually the point where I freak the hell out and run away. INFJ's tend to have inner worlds that are just incredibly deep and emotional. For some reason it feels like I"m standing on the edge of a cliff. I know no physical harm will come to me but there is a part of me that's just not comfortable with following through with the plunge.

So what tended to happen in my high school days was that we'd have a sort of elastic hot/cold interaction (or just me, rather) where I would freak out and run away. Then I'd be like, "but she's so cool" the next day and feel bad that I stopped talking to her. Then I'll go back and do it over again.

So far this method of courting hasn't worked out very well for obvious reasons. But what I'm more concerned with is the feelings of discomfort that I have. Its taken me a while but I've had to really open up to them to let them into my life.

When an INFJ overdoes the bubbliness I tend to freak out a little bit. Sometimes I get turned off. The reason for this is mostly because I'm not openning up to it.

I'm curious to know if there is something on your end that is much the same? Some sort of initial discomfort that you've had to get over, or some sort of behavior in ESTP's that turns you off only because you're not openning up yourself to it?

So is there a reciprocal feeling of letting down your boundaries? If so, could you describe it for me?
 

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Fu Dominant
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One of my previous SOs was an ESTP and reacted in the same way as you. :laughing: Pandora's box, eh?

Anyway, I had to get used to how physical she was. She always wanted to be right next to me, or always doing something with me. My natural state is on a more mental/emotional level. It took some getting used to in order to being more interactive and expressive.

Fortunately, physical touch is one of my highest love languages, so it wasn't THAT freaky. Just put me out of my element for a little while. In some ways, I'd say I opened up the equivalent to the ESTP's Pandora's box from my perspective when I hugged her the first time, lol. :tongue: It was like I let a tiger out from her cage without any idea that she was a tiger.
 

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I've had relationships with three ESTPs- two platonic and one romantic. The romantic one failed, but was very enjoyable right up until he left me...the other two have had ups and downs. I would say my friendship with the female ESTP is by far the most successful, but since we were coworkers and friends, and not romantic partners, I think that doesn't quite apply to your question. (?)

I definitely see that issue in myself with all three of the people, although it manifested in different ways.
With my ex-boyfriend, specifically, I never did fully let down my guard with him, because he intimidated me. I felt like he didn't really want to see me, because he would think I was boring and unadventurous (both of which, by the way, he decided were true, prompting him to get bored and leave).
I would say the common issue I have had with ESTPs in the beginning stages of each of the relationships is an all around feeling of intimidation. I generally feel as though I have to live up to an expectation in order to please or impress them, or they will disapprove of me. With my female ESTP friend, as soon as I saw through her rough exterior and learned to just stand up for myself when she was "too" rough, I became much more at ease with her, and wasn't intimidated by her anymore.
It's paradoxical, though, because in order for me to open up and let my guard down, I have to feel safe, and if I am intimidated, I don't feel safe...and so I continue to act as though I am inferior, which causes me to be treated as if I am inferior, which makes me feel intimidated, which makes me less likely to let me guard down...and so on. :)
 

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I thought it was an ESTP that I was involved with once before... turns out he was an ESFJ that projected a certain image. :mellow:
 

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It appears that you are quite fascinated with INFJs. However, it seems that for you we are akin to being like a drug, you want more of us because of the good feeling that you get, but at the same time we're not really good/right for you because somehow we evoke this "side effect" - that is, making you feel intimidated and thus run away. As it is, I've only arrived at this conclusion basing on what you have given on your post.
 

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I have been romantically involved with an ESTP and I'm not sure if I know others. I might know one, who is a girl - was doing a course assignment with her and her friend. She seemed wary of me first and not overly social - but she's extremely good at handling people and socially interacting with them. I approached her because it felt easy as she's friendly. Liked her from the start because she has a rather 'rowdy' sense of humour and can really make me laugh hard.

But anyway about the romantic relationship. For me it started in a strange way because we had been talking online first (and he came off as ENTP online btw) and kind of developed this friendship of sorts first. Texting and just sharing etc. Then he came to meet me and things happened because we were both extremely attracted to each other. Like this... Couldn't literally keep hands off of each other.

We got into a relationship which was a fail in many ways - many of the issues mentioned above, I was intimated by his "confrontationalness". I didn't share my fears nor did I share my whole self with him. Neither of us did. That was the biggest problem. Now later that I've actually confronted him it feels really good - I've never felt that fighting passionately with someone could feel as good. But it's about what was said - I need to feel safe and confrontation makes me feel unsafe usually - but as I've done with him more and more I've realised it kind of strengthens the bond? That's how HE IS when he feels comfortable with someone, being able to be forceful and expecting the same from me for instance.

The conflict always gets resolved but clears a lot of air as well. But first need to get to that point.

The relationship had really good things in it. He is an extremely passionate person and liberal but still had the same core values as me. We had a lot of fun together. Goofing off and physically great. Emotional connection was amazing. Internally he is just as fucked up as I am though so it's a litte funny he is 'supposedly' so rational and acts all rational even though he has a thousand motivations and little complexities about every single thing and very rich emotional inner life, it's hard to explain. The thrill is the complexity, ESTPs are JUST like INFJs turned inside out, if not worse.
 

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From recent experience:

I was usually completely unintimidated by ESTPs. I would usually give your type this look of 'wtf are you trying to do buddy'. The lack of intimidation was, I believe, from the belief that neither of us are interested in each other for something more (in whatever form). I could speak candidly with ESTPs. I was never concerned with impressing them.

The weird part is, it's this candidness that attracts you guys. It's like you don't expect it from the INFJ package (I think you often mistake us for ISFJs or INFPs from the outside).

To make a long story short, one of you guys started talking to me -- just casually and the conversations were very easy. So we started talking more. And then I noticed that the ESTP was sending me a lot of energy. Like, a lot. Like, I can't look at you in the eyes anymore because I am afraid of exposing my thoughts to you lot. It was ~ super ~ awkward for me. An INFJ who gets caught off guard is a confused little bird. I started overthinking every interaction. Pre-planning interactions and then it would all go out the window because the ESTP would grab hold of the conversation and derail anything I planned. I would oscillate between talking too much and not talking at all.

Hmm.. as far as behaviours that would turn me off. I want to know that the relationship I have with a person is unique. I don't like being thought of as a source of entertainment or someone you find cute or interesting but are not really interested in getting to know. I need to be sure that if I expose myself to you, you won't get scared and run off to a chick(s) who is better-looking and not so complicated. Because if that's what you want, there are plenty out there. So if you're out flirting with a bunch of other people and only running back to me when you have problem, I will friend-zone you pretty quickly. However, if you establish what you really think about me in advance, I will be comfortable with that.

Most important thing: Be honest with us. That's what we want more than anything. If you're too afraid to be honest, we won't know your intentions and we will assume we're reading too much into something. This makes us doubt our intuition and that's dangerous for us because then we feel lost.

What I am genuinely curious to know from an ESTP is .. what is it that we say/do that makes you think you want to get to know that person more? Because I noticed that what I liked about the ESTP was that he picked up on things about me that no one else gets. Like, even as simple as the clothes I would wear. So I assume, that the reverse must happen where an INFJ says or does something they consider completely innocuous, but to the ESTP it's something they connect with. I just haven't figured out what *it* is -- though it might really be something as abstract as our use of Ni, which is why by just holding a conversation you guys get all enamoured with us.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I don't want to speak for all ESTP's because others may say differently, but here goes nothin.

When I view INFJ's, they look like bookworms at first. Why? Well most of the INFJ's I've met were at school, make good grades, and wear clothing that is rather unextraordinary. What does this tell me? It means they're not very aggressive or high energy. Se. I'm searching for it and its very easy to see who has it and who doesn't. So if you don't wear clothing that tells me this, I'll skim right over you. I'm looking for an equal. I knew an INFJ that wore a superman T-shirt. That caught my eye immediately. So usually what happens is I don't notice them because they dress like plain uneventful people in my eyes. But once they catch my eye, I start getting curious. Usually what's happened is the INFJ would approach me out of nowhere after I've already rendered judgement so I'll continue to not even look at them even if they're talking to me. But what makes them stand out is when they do something that makes me realize they aren't as "bookwormish" as I once thought. I had one girl come up to me and say, "yup, looks like I'll be watching die hard by myself this christmas." I looked at her and laughed. When we parted ways I suddenly realized, "wait a minute, that girl was actually worth some attention. So then the next day I'll probably start paying more attention.

Now, besides acting like an ESTP, INFJ's make me feel like a superhero. The ego boost makes me feel invulnerable to both criticism and judgement.

How to look more attractive to an ESTP? I'll be blunt, so brace yourselves.

Look clean. Wear clothing that shows off your body. Look sleek, clean, natural. Present yourself as if you're an ESTP. Sometimes dresses covered in flowers make you look like you've been rolling around in the garden. Sometimes they look good. Usually they don't. That might just be me though. I'm actually going to make a thread and see if there is a general consensus on what ESTP's would prefer people to wear. Personally I like it when women dress sporty.



Quite frankly you don't have to have a nice body either. You can be overweight and I probably wouldn't care if you still imbued certain traits I was looking out for.

Its the difference between looking like a wierdo fortune teller (too many colors, too many things, too complex, all the colors muddle together):


and Se aware INFJ Ryan Gosling:


If it sounds shallow, well, yes it is. Unfortunately when I communicate to you I'm going to be looking at you fairly intensely during the conversation, and if your dress makes you look like you have growths, I'm gonna be a little wierded out, maybe even turned off. A woman that dresses in a way that says "F U" to my Se makes me feel dirty. Its almost as bad as not taking a shower.

And quite frankly once you get past that, you can talk about whatever the heck you want and reveal the fact that you're actually a gentle person. But we really want to see that strength in you. In some way shape or form you are a superhero, and that's what we're looking for. We're looking for someone who can bring a fist up in front of them and say, "BRING IT ON BITCH! I'M GONNA BREAK YOU DOWN AND SEND YOU TO YOUR MOTHER IN A BOX!" I find INFJ's are capable of expressing this kind of strength, but not in a direct way. Its more passive. "Pen is mightier than the sword" kinda thing. Lets see some quiet and intense PASSION!
 

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Fu Dominant
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Um... aren't INFJs known for wearing rather modest, elegant, simple clothing? I don't see why this would be an issue, unless perhaps my INFJ sisters are more exuberant in their dress or something. Kinda figured wild clothing was more the favor of my beloved ISFPs. Or maybe P types in general. I've known some INFPs with interesting fashion sense too.
 

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@Idan of Europa , thank you, but we know how to attract ESTPs if we want to. Normally we are just not interested in doing so.

However, I chuckled when you mentioned catching ESTPs attention with how you dress to get them interested in talking to you. As I mentioned in my post, the ESTP I knew complimented me on my outfit the day that I put absolutely no effort into getting ready for work. I grabbed what was clean and expressed my personality -- not the usual "workwear" outfit... and he noticed AND knew what I was going for. No one else notices. Ever. He was also surprised at my nonchalant usage of the word "douchebag".. because "girls like you don't normally talk like that...". It's like, what do you mean, girls like me?

Anyway, as @GoodOldDreamer mentionned, if you see a person wearing "too much"... they probably aren't INFJ. The love of details is more characteristic of Si. I'll repeat something I just posted in another thread:

We don't like wearing attention grabbing clothes because we just want to blend in. Think blues, blacks, minimal patterns (except, paradoxically, for plaid), cardigans. Actually, I can't stress this enough. Difference between INFP, ISFJ, etc, etc, and an INFJ.... we won't be wearing some goddamn fucking ugly pattern or flashy knitwear. We don't wear a lot of accessories. Seriously, pattern is used sparingly, and only as part of an overall "look" I am going for.

We aren't going to dress like an ESTP because we aren't ESTP. So next time you're about to pass someone over because they look boring, pay attention to what kind of boring. You might think it's boring, we call it sleek yet comfortable.

I'm not sure I could see myself wearing an all-white outfit like the one you posted. I would probably pick a blue one. White can get dirty and it's a bit flashy.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Alright well the photos werent there to say "only wear white" they were there to show the FEEL of what Im describing. Eh, I shouldnt have said anything.

And are you really going to ask me a question then argue with my answer?

What I am genuinely curious to know from an ESTP is .. what is it that we say/do that makes you think you want to get to know that person more?
 

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Alright well the photos werent there to say "only wear white" they were there to show the FEEL of what Im describing. Eh, I shouldnt have said anything.

And are you really going to ask me a question then argue with my answer?
You're the one trying to find INFJs. I understand the "feel" you were going for. I was just pointing out the sleek outfit would probably be in a darker colour. ;)

What I mean is that I wasn't really asking you what I should overtly do (ie. wear) to attract ESTPs. I wanted to know what we did perhaps more subconsciously (subvert) that attracted you guys. Not because I am interested in attracting more. Just out of curiosity. Which you answered, and I'm eternally grateful.
 

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oh, alrighty then. Yeah I guess I'd say its the "you're not who I thought you were" thing that I mentioned earlier.
 

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lol you wouldn't find me dead in a track suit.
i don't know why, but this type is my favorite type to have a stare off with. unless, i think they're attractive then i completely flip a shit and avoid eye contact at all costs.

i definitively notice clothes because Ni is all about remembering patterns. i'll remember his iowa state t shirt and matching hat and his really tight grey shirt.
 

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I've had romantic experiences with two ESTP males and one of my best friends is an ESTP female.

The romances did not work out very well. I always felt like I saw right through the first one and that he could never reach my soul. He was very grandiose in his approach to living life. The extravagent dates and gifts turned me off. I thought he was selfish, rude, and materialistic.

The second guy, I felt like he was always on the prowl for something interesting to pounce on. I never trusted him. It didn't get very far at all, and we've had great conversations in the years since then when we continued things as an occasional friendly acquaintance (he lives in a different country and takes me to dinner once a year or so when he's in town). It is intellectually very dynamic!

One of my closest girl friends right now is an ESTP. She is larger than life! So much fun to be around, and constant energy. She loves to provoke and tease people, and it is amusing to watch her treat men like they are dessert. :) We've been very good for each other, in terms of expanding the bounds of each others' personalities. I became more outgoing, practical, and easygoing as a result of the friendship. And she draws inspiration from me, in how I am decisive, clear about my ideals, and diplomatic.

We had a big clash about a year ago when I was complaining about an emotionally toxic situation at an organization I was volunteering with (major personality clash with some SJ types who were constantly fighting for control and choking the organization). She practically exploded on me, calling me a hyprocrite for not assertively taking these people on and standing up for what I believe, and that I always let things passively fester inside until the situation gets out of control. She basically yelled at me for being so conflict avoidant. I felt so bewildered. She always goes for impact! And she couldn't understand my passive angst. I thought about it a few days, decided she had a good point, but that I didn't like her bullying me about my way of doing things. I sent her a short email about this, to which she responded "Thanks, have a good weekend!" Afterwards, I knew she felt bad, but she doesn't expose her own emotions towards others, so we never discussed it again. I love her dearly as a friend, but sometimes I just have to smile and appreciate our extreme differences.
 

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Hmm... I'm not so certain of this Introverts should date Extroverts thing... especially almost opposites.

For me, extroverts...at least a lot of them drain me. Dating an extrovert, and I've done it... is a bit exhausting... They are usually always wanting to do "things" or inviting too many people of their friends over, lots of social gatherings. Where as I am fine with limited people...and just being around another introvert and not necessarily having to do "things." I enjoy another introverts company without the constant need to blab. I also enjoy quiet environments, and most extraverts I know aren't like this... often have tv on, music on, wanting to go to big crowded venues like big concerts, etc. None of that is my thing.

The only thing I could see having this be a good relationship would be say in a business. I think it would be good to have differing opinions. Some people to run sales/marketing/business end of things, etc.

Or having an extrovert amongst your group of friends that knows when things ARE going on, for the times when you actually want to go be social.

In a relationship I could see this with disagreeing on almost everything, which to me, isn't good.

I don't think ESTP would be as bad... but most ESTJ Women are HUGE turn offs to me... Think the business suit woman, corporate type, interested in big house, nice car, type A personalities... I steer clear of these tendencies in people, and they probably wouldn't like me either. I'm cool with that.
 

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Hrm...how do I make myself look to attract an ESTP?

Truth is, I don't. If someone is shallow enough to disregard me completely because I "look" boring, then I'm not interested in trying to win their good opinion or attention. It makes me think that conversing with someone like that would be like conversing with a hollowed out log - unextraordinary, and absolutely nothing below the surface.

But it was very thoughtful to give us all a lesson on how to be what ESTPs want. :laughing:
 

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I don't want to speak for all ESTP's because others may say differently, but here goes nothin.

When I view INFJ's, they look like bookworms at first. Why? Well most of the INFJ's I've met were at school, make good grades, and wear clothing that is rather unextraordinary. What does this tell me? It means they're not very aggressive or high energy. Se. I'm searching for it and its very easy to see who has it and who doesn't. So if you don't wear clothing that tells me this, I'll skim right over you. I'm looking for an equal. I knew an INFJ that wore a superman T-shirt. That caught my eye immediately. So usually what happens is I don't notice them because they dress like plain uneventful people in my eyes. But once they catch my eye, I start getting curious. Usually what's happened is the INFJ would approach me out of nowhere after I've already rendered judgement so I'll continue to not even look at them even if they're talking to me. But what makes them stand out is when they do something that makes me realize they aren't as "bookwormish" as I once thought. I had one girl come up to me and say, "yup, looks like I'll be watching die hard by myself this christmas." I looked at her and laughed. When we parted ways I suddenly realized, "wait a minute, that girl was actually worth some attention. So then the next day I'll probably start paying more attention.

Now, besides acting like an ESTP, INFJ's make me feel like a superhero. The ego boost makes me feel invulnerable to both criticism and judgement.

How to look more attractive to an ESTP? I'll be blunt, so brace yourselves.

Look clean. Wear clothing that shows off your body. Look sleek, clean, natural. Present yourself as if you're an ESTP. Sometimes dresses covered in flowers make you look like you've been rolling around in the garden. Sometimes they look good. Usually they don't. That might just be me though. I'm actually going to make a thread and see if there is a general consensus on what ESTP's would prefer people to wear. Personally I like it when women dress sporty.



Quite frankly you don't have to have a nice body either. You can be overweight and I probably wouldn't care if you still imbued certain traits I was looking out for.

Its the difference between looking like a wierdo fortune teller (too many colors, too many things, too complex, all the colors muddle together):


and Se aware INFJ Ryan Gosling:


If it sounds shallow, well, yes it is. Unfortunately when I communicate to you I'm going to be looking at you fairly intensely during the conversation, and if your dress makes you look like you have growths, I'm gonna be a little wierded out, maybe even turned off. A woman that dresses in a way that says "F U" to my Se makes me feel dirty. Its almost as bad as not taking a shower.

And quite frankly once you get past that, you can talk about whatever the heck you want and reveal the fact that you're actually a gentle person. But we really want to see that strength in you. In some way shape or form you are a superhero, and that's what we're looking for. We're looking for someone who can bring a fist up in front of them and say, "BRING IT ON BITCH! I'M GONNA BREAK YOU DOWN AND SEND YOU TO YOUR MOTHER IN A BOX!" I find INFJ's are capable of expressing this kind of strength, but not in a direct way. Its more passive. "Pen is mightier than the sword" kinda thing. Lets see some quiet and intense PASSION!
Thank you so much for posting that. I always wondered if I look blan to my sensor men. I dress down a lot, partially because I am in my intuitive la la land and also being introverted I don't like to draw attention. But I have always noticed that I don't look as good as these certain kind of other people, even though I am usually more polished than them, but I couldn't figure out what it was exactly, and those other people are usually extraverted and/or sensing. So your post got me thinking. I am very good at experiencing other people's personalities. I put on my sensor hat and put together a few of my outfits and I was like wow. You other INFJs should try this. I just thought about what sensors like to see. I put on this teal shirt with a summery, South American orange lipstick and these big African style woven yellow orange and turqoise hoops. It might sound loud, but it had just the right punch to it. I also did another outfit where I put this sparkly headband thing in my hair. I am going to do it more often. :) What do you think @Idan of Europa?
 

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Hrm...how do I make myself look to attract an ESTP?

Truth is, I don't. If someone is shallow enough to disregard me completely because I "look" boring, then I'm not interested in trying to win their good opinion or attention. It makes me think that conversing with someone like that would be like conversing with a hollowed out log - unextraordinary, and absolutely nothing below the surface.

But it was very thoughtful to give us all a lesson on how to be what ESTPs want. :laughing:
I understand that you might be tempted to be bothered by what he said, but you want to look good for your man for one, and for two, think of the times when you had a failed relationship and lets say that guy was a nine, you want the next guy to be a ten. That works the other way around too. Regardless though, when a woman stands out, thats when "all the boys come to the yard," no matter how mature they are and whatever else. I've seen it time and time again. They start off all composed and hard working, with their priorities in place, and next thing you know, they are falling all over theirself trying to get her.
 
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