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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello everyone,

I know its a long post,my apologies, and I am sure a lot of people wont read it, but I hope some of you might find it interesting :)

There is one topic which has been intriguing for some years now concerning social interaction in general. Lately, however, I have been trying to analyze more deeply the female perception of this topic.
To make my issue as clear as possible I would like to start of by telling you a little about myself. It might be a little boring, but I think it could be relevant.
I am 22 years old, male, studying at university. I grew up in a foreign country since the age of 3 and my parents tried to integrate me as much as possible: they send me to the local kindergarden and school. Around age (+/-)7- (+/-)18 I was never popular in school. Quite the contrary: I was very shy, introverted and mostly kept to myself (INTJ style I guess). But then eventually, maybe I started to find people who thought alike and I got on with them very well. The problem was that these people where allways outsiders too. So I did find friends, that was never really the problem as I liked to be to myself just fine, but I never was quite able to climb up the social ladder to the most "popular" people.
But eventually I ralized how many benfits one can reap from social popularity, and how important it is the mind and the soul. From this point onwards I started to analyze the people around me with more detail and started seeing a ton of behaviourial mechanisms, and I made it to my goal to copy and perfectualize these mechanisms*.
Note: from now on I will call the totality of these social mechanisms: "playing the game" or "just the game"

Now I am 22 and I think I have come very close to my goal
! (obviously there is still a ton of improovements to malke, but I can be socially succesfull now)

I would even dare to say that I can have a lot more social success than other Extraverted peple when it comes to social interactions, although I am INTJ and have a natural handycap.

Whilst analyzing people I noticed that there are certain individuals who are extremely skilled at making people like them (even if it is only superficially: who cares, i am not trying to find friends, I am trying to be popular!). One example would be a pretty girl in school: she will allways be popular and along her social carrer will learn how to play with her natural gift of beauty and will learn how to play the social game to close perfection. Or the popular guy in highscool, they will all intuitively learn how to manipulate people around them. Often it is said that they have a certain "aura" about them. Well we can quantify this "aura" and break it up into distinct behaviourial paterns.
Once one does that cosciously, one will gain the advantage to be able to gice signal at will! This will make you more dinamic, adabtable, and more powerfull. Why that? well because people who do it unconsiously can only do it when they really mean it and this includes a certain random factor, they simply cannot do it with anyone and everyone.
Someone who understands these mechanisms more consciously can, however, send the right signals at will and thus be popular within limitless groups, cultures, styles, gangs, whatever!

Finally comming to my issue. I talked with guys about the game and how they play it and I did meet the rare individual who was completely aware of how to play the game and manipulate people with it.
However, guys have a natuaral disadvantage when playing the game: They can manipulate guys, thats easy, and they can manipulate girls, which is harder. Why? because often girls pose much more of a challenge because it is socially inacceptable to "give yourself in" to a random guy just like that.
On the other hand, thats not the same wiht most guys: they are easily manipulated by a pretty girl, because they are more succeptible to manipulation targeting their libidinal instincts.
Now here my 2 questions:
First: Are there girls out there who have perfectualized the game and think that they know how to use it consciously in a controlled fashion? ( I have spoken to a lot of girsl who I thought new how to play the game, but none did it consciously)
Second: If there is someone answering the first question affirmativelly, do you play the game with other girsl too? and if yes, does it work just as well?


ONE LAST IMPORTANT THING: when I mean that I play the game it DOES NOT mean that I just copy the popular people and do what they do in order to become popular: I never humilated another person or treated them baldy just to gain favour in groups, I never needed to once I was at a certain stage of understanding of the game.

Hey guys, sorry for this mega long post! I am hoping for some interesting answes :tongue:





* When I talk about mechanisms I mean things like: bodylanguage (eye contact, smiles, laughs, where to put your hands, how to stand, how to sit, etc.), the whole game with loosing and gaining "face" in social interaction, the beahviourial characteristics of individuals on different stages of the social/group hierarchy, etc.
 

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If I had more than ten posts, I would link you to one of the recent XKCD comics that mocks "The Game".

I personally believe that the goal of climbing up a social ladder is bullshit, and in the end it is just another means to an end (happiness or success) - a means that us INTJs aren't very good at carrying out. We'd be better off finding success or happiness through methods other than the manipulation of people.

While here in the INTJ forum, you won't get many females who will post about their ability to manipulate others, I believe if you were to somehow draw a truthful response from the "normies" (ESFXs), you would find that few people think of social interaction and manipulation as a "game". Most ESFXs can't see what they're doing and what system is at work, but instead they see their immediate goal.

An EXTP is better as recognizing their own ability to manipulate others as a "game" or a system, rather than as their natural talents or lifestyle.
 

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Most people, men and women, socialize without being aware of all the things that are going on. You are analizing all the unwritten rules and patterns and because you´re so aware of them, you think other people also are aware of them. You may think you know that you're more knowledgeable on the subject than others, but the reality is that most people don't have a clue about what's going on in social (or any other) situations.

This is how the brain works. If things go like expected, they do not surface in the concious mind. Only things that are different surface. This is why people notice those that suck at socializing in a heart beat and are quick to label them "weird".

Few people do conciously socialize. You do it and I do it too. Sometimes I even practice small talk just to see if I'm getting better at it. But most people just socialize without any awareness of what they are dioing.
 

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I would wonder why you would want to be good at this,as it is not something I would aspire to in any way, but certainly in order to succeed in a lot of areas it's good to master it. I think the way INTJ women usually do it is consciously. I am no longer involved in anything that has a popularity factor, but I am capable of being the social ringleader or the social center of attention of a group if it is expected of me. It's fake, but this is sometimes necessary in a leadership position in a social context. So if I am hosting an event, then, yes, I use fake charisma and "take stage." It is expected. If I am at an event that is put on for me, like a social birthday dinner, I will take stage, as it is expected of me. It is not a skill level that gives me anything, just lets me travel through a situation with more flow and less resistance. I use the list of things that you mentioned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hey guys,

thx for the answers so far!

@ bored_1: Thanks for supporting your answer by linking to the different types. When you say that the "normies" do it unconsciously and just as a matter of lifestyle you are probably right. I noticed a lot of talented "players", who i´d probably charaterize as ESFX´s, who I think really did not have a clue of what they where doing.
Regarding you statement that you think that climbing the social ladder is bullshit and that INTJ´s have other ways to achieve ends I would like clarify the reson why I think that it still is important. As an INTJ we are often more skilled at solving problems than many people around us and the people around us will eventually realize this and valurize us for these skills, even though we might not be so socially capable. This process, however, is mid to longterm. Lets say if I change my social environment it takes weeks or even months untill people will know to apreciate me for my INTJ skills and untill I have a fixed position in society.
Often I see myself in situations where I dont have that time. So here its all about making impact fast and effectively, and in these situations I find it extremely usefull to play the game as quickly and effectively as possible in order to achieve social succes.

@Peter: When you say that part about how the brain works, I can only agree and I think that it is especially very often the case of individuals who are naturally very talented at the this social game. Furthermore, just like bored_1 said these people pratice the game as a social lifestyle. This however makes them incapable of using their vast abilities in situations where it doesnt fit their lifestyle: for example lets say that they can only play the game with people they have an affinity to and when they meet someone they don´t like as much they find themselves unable to tap into their abilites.
So theoretically, we as INTJs, who are able to emulate, charisma are more adabtable and versatile as many naturally talented people. And its basically here where i see my challenge: beating people in something they are naturally gifted in, with the use of conscious analisis :)

@Calliope Thank you for replying as one of the only women ;). I am glad to hear that you do socialize consciously. Probably, just like me, you find it energy draining to "fake" charisma but the longer I practise it the more it becomes intuitively and the less energy it costs, did you notice the same?

I especially agree when you say: "lets me travel through a situation with more flow and less resistance" thats precisely one of the reasons why I practise it so much and why I think that it is really worth it to invest in this skill, it helps temenduosly in a lot of situations. I would even go as far as to say that I dont use it anymore just to go through situations with less resistance, as a defensive skill. More and more I have learned to appreciate its offensive abilities: I use it to achieve success, in a faster, more superficial fashion in everyday life.

Lastly I would like to ask your opinion on the following: As an INTJ I have an urge to achieve effectiveness. So whenever I see a naturally gifted person (in playing the social game), I have the the urge to "turn" them more effective by telling them about their natural talent and suggest to use it cosnsciously.
I wonder if that is even possible? Could intelligent character types who are naturally gifted at sociallizing learn these things consciously and become like "the ultimate socializer" ?! like natural talents meets conscious actions :crazy:
 

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I am feeling particularly crabby this morning, so the word 'perfectualize' is bugging me a little...okay, a lot.

I don't play the game. I have never tried. At school my friends and I were a mix of 'good' and 'smart' girls. I was never interested in being popular, because that meant being friends with and fitting into a group of people I didn't really care for. I just wanted to be liked by the group I was part of and I was nice/neutral to the rest. The friends I had then (still very good friends with 4 of them - my best friends) accepted me for who I was. I still only allow people like that into my life, everyone else is kept outside or gets the boot if they managed to sneak in.

Popularity is false and fleeting. Being popular means nothing. Yes, you can use it as a tool, but I have engineerd my life and career in such a way that it won't be necessary for me. If ass kissing feels unnatural, get a different job or friends.
 

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Fuck the game. All it does is convince other sheep to conform and be like everyone else they're in a flock with. Changing yourself to fit in is one of the worst things you can do. Be true to yourself and people can like and accept you for who you are rather than liking and accepting you for the lie you've presented to the world.

People like me because I'm blunt, have 0 tact, less than 0 filter, live my life the way I want to, and think solely for myself. The people that don't like me dislike me for most of those reasons as well. Does it bother me that people like or don't like me? No. Why? I'm my own person and could care less for the most part.

Ffs, be yourself above all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Alright, two answers that seems very honest to me so thank you alot for that! :)

Here are my thoughts on your comments.

At school my friends and I were a mix of 'good' and 'smart' girls. I was never interested in being popular, because that meant being friends with and fitting into a group of people I didn't really care for. I just wanted to be liked by the group I was part of and I was nice/neutral to the rest. The friends I had then (still very good friends with 4 of them - my best friends) accepted me for who I was. I still only allow people like that into my life, everyone else is kept outside or gets the boot if they managed to sneak in.
Its same with me, thats how I prefer socializing if I had the option and thats exactly how I did it for most of my life.
However I just cant deny the advantages of Vitamin C(onnections)! It is nearly a scientific fact that one has more options in life the more people one knows. If most of the people that know you even like you then there is an even higher chance that there is somoene among your aquaintances that will have something to offer to you. I used to think that I can manage my life on my own, and I can, but I can achieve even more with the help of others.
So often I had a set opinion on a topic, but if by chance I listened to someone elses opinion of whom I though: damn i am not gonna hear anything new, in fact, I did learn something new or even changed my mind. (Especially with my (+/-) ESFP girlfriend :) )
So for one I think that it is usefull to play the game in order to get to socialize with people that just would not talk to you if you did not play the game. So that one can hear often very surprising and original points of view about topics.
Secondly I think that it can be very usefull because with Vitamin C one migth just get: a better job, capital for your bussines, a cheaper car, or just more food at the cantine ;) . Atleast in the country I live in everything is handled with connections.
Thirdly it helps to understand people actions a lot! For example when I was younger I never could understand why most people acted so "f***g stupid" I even distanced myself from family members because I just could understand their "stupidty". Why did they not just act rationally to solve a problem? It seemed so easy and straight forward to me..I even gave the answers and people jsut didnt get them :) Now I know more about how diferent people think and act and thus not just can I understand better their actions, but I also am getting better at "translating" my solutions of problems to other people. ( although i must admitt that this is still the hardest by far, I often just want to slap them in the face and tell them in an unbreakable string of arguments what they schould do and why, no buts allowed :) )

One last thing: When playing the game I never distance myself from my true values. Maybe I dont impose them on people, but I also never take any action that would go against them.

I am not saying that an INTJ needs to play the game in order to survive, but that it might open new horizons one wouldnt have though possible...

@ Redleaf:
Fuck the game. All it does is convince other sheep to conform and be like everyone else they're in a flock with. Changing yourself to fit in is one of the worst things you can do. Be true to yourself and people can like and accept you for who you are rather than liking and accepting you for the lie you've presented to the world.

People like me because I'm blunt, have 0 tact, less than 0 filter, live my life the way I want to, and think solely for myself. The people that don't like me dislike me for most of those reasons as well. Does it bother me that people like or don't like me? No. Why? I'm my own person and could care less for the most part.

Ffs, be yourself above all.
I agree and disagree. When you say be yourself I couldnt agree more! One should NEVER stop beeing yourself and give up your own values just to fit in a group and be popular. I would never do that. Also true friends should accept you how you really are. I have a few of them and I am very glad that I have them. But most of the time I have to socialize with a lot of other people.
Where I disagree is when you say " fuck the game". Maybe I did not make myself very clear, it is still hard for me to be completely clear about my ideas, I apologize. What you say is true when you are talking about finding TRUE friends, but then most of the time I dont even want to. I have a few and I am fine with that. However I want to have simpathisers in the society around me. This important for me for a lot of reasons. So that´s when the game really comes in handy: bonding with people that might never be your true friends but who are friends all the same. They can help you in inumerous occasions.
Example: lets image i like to play a ball game played in groups. If I dont get on well with other people because I lack a lot of social skills people will maybe not invite me next time they go playing, and I miss out on the game I like to play. But if I knew how to play the social game, and bond with a coupple of people they will incite me and i get what I want.
Now, that is a very simple example, but there are a ton of other stuff I dont want to miss out on in life just because I am not naturally gifted with social talent! Lucky enough, we INTJs have the NATURAL ability to emulate charisma :)

One last thing on this toppic: When I play the game most of the time I never really "fake" stuff. What I try to do is emphasize certain aspects of my personality that I think fit best and withold other parts. But I nearly never make up completely new parts, so I stay true to myself and also save a lot of energy becaue faking is exhausting.

p.s. I found the "Quote" Button :crazy:
 

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One last thing on this toppic: When I play the game most of the time I never really "fake" stuff. What I try to do is emphasize certain aspects of my personality that I think fit best and withold other parts. But I nearly never make up completely new parts, so I stay true to myself and also save a lot of energy becaue faking is exhausting.
I'm not sure I understand how you can be true to yourself and yet withhold parts of yourself. It seems an oxymoron to me.

I'd rather find things I enjoy doing with others where I don't have to withhold who I am in order to be involved. There are times where I'm put in a role of leader or center of a group gathering and I can still be myself... but no games for me. I see games. I used to live in a house full of games. Fuck games. I will never play them again, not even a little.

If I can't be me, I'd rather not be at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Dear green4keeps,

I hope I understand your aversion towards games, I am not saying that I play games in order to subdue and in this way gain advantage over others in society.

Maybe I am not really good at explaining my thoughs, but please dont understand me wrong. I am not saying that I play "bitchy" games where people get hurt or where the goal is to subdue other people in order to gain advantages in society. When I refer to play the game, I am talking about the art of socializing and bonding with people, but never at the expense of others. When you say you lived in a house full of games it sounds to me like people where conspiring against each other. I don´t do that.

To explain this a little further let me give one example: My natural body language that I had when I was younger send the message to leave me alone, it send an arrogant message, because thats how I felt about most other people because i thought that they acted stupid when they behaved in an irrational manner. Well I had that preconcept about most other people, and it reflected in my body language. When I send this message it is hard to socialize with other people and I missed out on stuff (I think that it is important to socialize becasue of the reasons stated in my previous post).

Now I can controll my bodylanguage consciously. This is usefull in a lot of ways. One simple example of where this could be usefull in everyday life is the following: You want a raise from your boss, whom you hate for whatever reason. However he´s you boss and you´d like a raise. Now naturally I could not have controlled my bodylanguage and I would go into his office and ask him for a raise because I am hard working and a good employee. And my bodylanguage will tell him he´s an asshole :) He knows that I am harworking etc but still he might not give me the raise. If however i come in and my bodylanguage is open and sympathising to him, and I am hardworking there are better odds that I get my raise.
I did no assliking, I am the same person, I did not betray my values, all I did was send a diferent message via bodylanguage than the one that my body would have send naturally. This is just the peak of the iceberg, but I think that I made my point.

It just makes life easier.

Again I would also like to emphasize that with my true friends I dont do that. And even if i ever get lost in my ways, my true friends are intelligent and honest enough to tell me get a grip and that why I respect them so much.

But then, you dont want to be friends of your "asshole" boss. You just want a raise. Maybe "big breasted blondie with and IQ of 80" will get the raise because she wears an extra large decollete today. I certainly wouldnt like that so I would be happy if I could beat her with her own weapons (not with a decollete but by playing the game in a way that I will get the raise too)
I know there is an extreme thin moral line when playing the game, but I try not to cross it. I dont want to hurt people, nor do I want to take things away from people. All I want is to reap the same benefits that they have just because they are socially skilled.

I hope that answerd your questions. If not I´d be happy to try explain myself clearer.
 

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Game?

This would explain why everyone seems to be having fun talking about crap that's within the limit of social unwritten rules. It never looked like a fun game to me but neither does sudoku. Which is just as pointless and puzzling.

I hang out with the popular kids in my school but I'm not respected that much. I would much prefer to hang out with friends I care about who treat me like a friend, who gives a fuck if they're social outcasts? :\ I envy you for that.

I would never play that stupid game you made up or I never have. I got hanging out with popular girls by not being afraid to approach people and talk to them. Simple as buddy.
 

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Noodle, are you sure you're an INTJ? You sound a lot like an INTP. They have inferior Fe which could make them crave social acceptance. And the way you analyzed social rules is more Ti than Ni+Te.

Personally I always had a kind of pride in being the odd one. And while observing social mechanisms can be very enlightening, I would never use this knowledge to gain an advantage. It would feel wrong.
 

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Thirdly it helps to understand people actions a lot! For example when I was younger I never could understand why most people acted so "f***g stupid" I even distanced myself from family members because I just could understand their "stupidty". Why did they not just act rationally to solve a problem? It seemed so easy and straight forward to me..I even gave the answers and people jsut didnt get them :) Now I know more about how diferent people think and act and thus not just can I understand better their actions, but I also am getting better at "translating" my solutions of problems to other people.
I would say, that most of the INTJs I know who consider themselves personally successful (by their standards) have learned these social skills to some extent, or at least have gotten beyond a rebelling state. However, not to derail but possibly to divert, you do use phrasing that makes me slightly uncomfortable in that they seem like they are moving into the "if you open your mind and understand different perspectives, you will see that people are not really irrational and you will not need to judge them" belief system.

So just for my own curiosity, what exactly have you found that are the reason people don't do things rationally? I don't believe the games you are talking about are innocuous, as you characterize them. In my experience, much of these games are based on promoting a group conscience that condones lying to oneself in order to avoid uncomfortable emotions or are based on not wanting to face unpleasant truths. In my experience, those who have an unusual perspective will tell you if asked what they used to come to such an unusual conclusion. If they cannot, it is my experience that they are rearranging reality to create a more comfortable emotional state.

So just asking, what is this different perspective that you have found it possible to translate into? How do you now see people that you previously thought were being "dense" that now makes clear sense to you? What are some examples of the missing perspectives that people are using that would make their conclusions rational or that you could understand enough to show them, in their own language, why their actions are not rational?
 

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Who gives a fuck? Fuck the game.
Some people do. We try to understand why things work the way they do. To give you an online example. This comment of yours got a shitload of "thank you"s. In the real world it's people with moronic statements like yours that, for some strange reason, get so much appreciation as well.
 

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Some people do. We try to understand why things work the way they do. To give you an online example. This comment of yours got a shitload of "thank you"s. In the real world it's people with moronic statements like yours that, for some strange reason, get so much appreciation as well.
How is it moronic? I stated my opinion. Easy there tiger, don't get your panties in a bunch.
 

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How is it moronic? I stated my opinion, easy there tiger, don't get your panties in a bunch.
I exagerated to make a point. But your comment is the typical one that often kills a conversation in real life. This is why I don't like these kinds of comments.

And it's the comment I called moronic, not you.


Actually, I am more interested in how those that made the "thank you"s reply to my post than you yourself, but of course it's only natural you would be the only one to reply. :happy:
 

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I exagerated to make a point. But your comment is the typical one that often kills a conversation in real life. This is why I don't like these kinds of comments.
So let me get this straight, you came in this thread, to tell me how moronic my comment is and that it kills the discussion, yet you don't mention anything on the topic at hand...pot>kettle>black. I must admit, this is truly amusing to me, thank you so much, you have made my night. :wink:

P.S. - I never said you called me moronic, comprehension ftw
 

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So let me get this straight, you came in this thread, to tell me how moronic my comment is and that it kills the discussion, yet you don't mention anything on the topic at hand...pot>kettle>black. I must admit, this is truly amusing to me, thank you so much, you have made my night. :wink:
I posted before, third comment I think.

This post of yours explained why your comments are so short. You´re very easily pleased. And it's interesting to see the techniques you´re using to defend yourself. I wonder if the thread starter is seeing it as well.
 
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