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Is it an ENTP thing to be irritated by obvious or overly simplistic and platitude filled, or exaggerated reactionary postings on-line - in the name of trying to “create value”? I admit this is a rehashing of something I journaled in a notebook when I was in a tired, frustrated mood about my own on-line marketing. There really is some good content out there. But we are not all journalists, and one substitute for being a good writer is simply to know who you are talking to. Of course relevance is foremost in importance, but at what point does this become a kind of psychological whoredom? Am I the only one who sees this as a troubling potential option while other people do it comfortably, or without even knowing they are doing it? My Ti is giving me hissy fits? My Ne wants to take my toys and go find a new playground?

I’ve always been too eclectic to genuinely fit in anywhere? I’m not talking about knowing how to fit in. I mean there may be no such thing as a group of like-mindedness? – For anyone? The concept of “tribe” is a big problem for me. I just can’t swallow a whole, total package “party-line” or indoctrination -or not for long. It’s disingenuous. Is everyone else faking it?

Do you ever start thinking the way to have a good life would be to become a cult leader, peddling nonsense, because most people just want the easiest, fastest way to feel good about themselves in the moment? I should give up on thinking and resign myself to becoming a professional panderer? In fact, sometimes I fear this is the true definition of growing up.

Actual political movements are not my complaint.
The necessity of playing politics is sometimes irritating for me but I’m not attacking any actual party or ideology or persons here. I believed in free markets when it meant building, inventing, and selling what the public deemed valuable; it’s different when your product is information though, isn’t it? Most of life is not 100 percent evil against 100 percent righteousness, or even about good or evil, the way we make it sound when we choose sides. In a free society we negotiate a contract of how to be operational and free as individuals in an interdependent functional marketplace. Being part of a marketplace isn’t limited to engaging in financial transactions; it could be as abstract or basic as human adaptation in an evolutionary, or “psychological type” sense. If we exist, we are making peace between our inner and outer worlds. Today’s adaptive concerns are different from the industrial age - but it’s still about our place in the herd?

Scrambled battle-lines?
This isn’t a pure theoretical discussion. I wonder if local business owners (my customer base for nearly 20 years) feel pressure to be like TV news journalists. It may not be enough to offer products and services ( and allocate resources for the best ad time-slot) they now have to become personalities on-line, in the sense they have to fit in with what their “readers” want to hear - and just milk it?

Being a user of Ti and tertiary fe, I accept marketing principals as facts of life. As a business owner, I appreciate how a sound bite (or text-message/subject line) world abhors complexity. I understand what a thesis is, and how emotion motivates, while analysis informs. Even if (or especially if) you are Mark Zuckerburg, it’s not enough to create a useful product, you have public perception and timing to master in order to be viable. Coolness, especially in some cases, is a legit part of perceived value. The herd mentality isn’t new, but our negotiations of what we are willing to do in exchange for what, are no longer confined to office hours, elections, family commitments, and a chosen circle of people we see, and do things with. It’s not just the big corporation’s marketing executive, and the neighborhood busy body with a large percent of life invested in PR.

The problem to solve from a business perspective, is about getting and keeping customers.
But has technology changed our expectations and perceived needs in more than logistics? Is this more than desperation in a slow economy? It’s no longer enough to create a better mousetrap; your product is now a new persona - with a profile page. People must relate to “you” and like what you stand for on a grander scale, through covert channels. You must jump on an ethical or philosophical bandwagon? You must tickle itching ears!

Mediocrity is not the solution.
The problem outlined above is resulting in the current butt load of Duh? that fills my in-box? Yours too? Dare we attempt to figure out who to tickle and who not to offend? As a business owner, knowing who your customer is has always been part of the job description, but today product placement is now a virtual location and you are negotiating shelf space in your customers mind.
 

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l feel bad for telling her to have coffee now :sad: She's probably gone mute.
 

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l think @Word Dispenser should tackle this one.
You're just bringin' me here 'cause you took my lasso. Now I have to tackle it bare-handed, while you watch in amusement. Sigh.

old intern said:
Is it an ENTP thing to be irritated by obvious or overly simplistic and platitude filled, or exaggerated reactionary postings on-line - in the name of trying to “create value”? I admit this is a rehashing of something I journaled in a notebook when I was in a tired, frustrated mood about my own on-line marketing. There really is some good content out there. But we are not all journalists, and one substitute for being a good writer is simply to know who you are talking to. Of course relevance is foremost in importance, but at what point does this become a kind of psychological whoredom? Am I the only one who sees this as a troubling potential option while other people do it comfortably, or without even knowing they are doing it? My Ti is giving me hissy fits? My Ne wants to take my toys and go find a new playground?

I’ve always been too eclectic to genuinely fit in anywhere? I’m not talking about knowing how to fit in. I mean there may be no such thing as a group of like-mindedness? – For anyone? The concept of “tribe” is a big problem for me. I just can’t swallow a whole, total package “party-line” or indoctrination -or not for long. It’s disingenuous. Is everyone else faking it?

Do you ever start thinking the way to have a good life would be to become a cult leader, peddling nonsense, because most people just want the easiest, fastest way to feel good about themselves in the moment? I should give up on thinking and resign myself to becoming a professional panderer? In fact, sometimes I fear this is the true definition of growing up.

Actual political movements are not my complaint.
The necessity of playing politics is sometimes irritating for me but I’m not attacking any actual party or ideology or persons here. I believed in free markets when it meant building, inventing, and selling what the public deemed valuable; it’s different when your product is information though, isn’t it? Most of life is not 100 percent evil against 100 percent righteousness, or even about good or evil, the way we make it sound when we choose sides. In a free society we negotiate a contract of how to be operational and free as individuals in an interdependent functional marketplace. Being part of a marketplace isn’t limited to engaging in financial transactions; it could be as abstract or basic as human adaptation in an evolutionary, or “psychological type” sense. If we exist, we are making peace between our inner and outer worlds. Today’s adaptive concerns are different from the industrial age - but it’s still about our place in the herd?

Scrambled battle-lines?
This isn’t a pure theoretical discussion. I wonder if local business owners (my customer base for nearly 20 years) feel pressure to be like TV news journalists. It may not be enough to offer products and services ( and allocate resources for the best ad time-slot) they now have to become personalities on-line, in the sense they have to fit in with what their “readers” want to hear - and just milk it?

Being a user of Ti and tertiary fe, I accept marketing principals as facts of life. As a business owner, I appreciate how a sound bite (or text-message/subject line) world abhors complexity. I understand what a thesis is, and how emotion motivates, while analysis informs. Even if (or especially if) you are Mark Zuckerburg, it’s not enough to create a useful product, you have public perception and timing to master in order to be viable. Coolness, especially in some cases, is a legit part of perceived value. The herd mentality isn’t new, but our negotiations of what we are willing to do in exchange for what, are no longer confined to office hours, elections, family commitments, and a chosen circle of people we see, and do things with. It’s not just the big corporation’s marketing executive, and the neighborhood busy body with a large percent of life invested in PR.

The problem to solve from a business perspective, is about getting and keeping customers.
But has technology changed our expectations and perceived needs in more than logistics? Is this more than desperation in a slow economy? It’s no longer enough to create a better mousetrap; your product is now a new persona - with a profile page. People must relate to “you” and like what you stand for on a grander scale, through covert channels. You must jump on an ethical or philosophical bandwagon? You must tickle itching ears!

Mediocrity is not the solution.
The problem outlined above is resulting in the current butt load of Duh? that fills my in-box? Yours too? Dare we attempt to figure out who to tickle and who not to offend? As a business owner, knowing who your customer is has always been part of the job description, but today product placement is now a virtual location and you are negotiating shelf space in your customers mind.
Hello, fellow Journalist! (Well, sort of. I was in a college program for Journalism for a couple of years. I like the title of 'journalist', though, it implies being investigative and biased. I mean, objective. -Cough, cough.- Somebody said my writing style is like the creator of gonzo-journalism. Apt.)

Where do I start? 'Is this an ENTP thing?' I'd think it's a concern for any intelligent person-- ENTP or not.

From my observations, we've created a monster that is 'economy', and expect that we can keep it under control, that it will serve everyone, and that it's actually the most civilized thing we can come up with.

The reality is scarcity, competition, and 'fakin' it 'til you make it'. The economy needs to grow. And not only does it need to grow, it needs to do so with increasing velocity as well as quantity.

With that kind of combination, you know it can't be stable, or obviously sustainable.

Even as a child, I saw so much cruelty. And when any of these children grew up, they plastered smiles over their scowls and made a complete U-turn into civilized, kind, and upright individuals. Observing this with incredulity, I realized that most of the world was like this. That everyone was wearing a mask, and that underneath was an uglier story.

Would a civilized world of self-aware, conscious creatures allow their own to starve, be disease-ridden, and without homes, simply due to concepts such as 'countries' and 'currency'?

Nope. Which means we aren't even a little civilized, in my view.

Most of the biggest corporations create products with planned obsolescence.

From Wikipedia:

Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence[SUP][1][/SUP] in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[SUP][1][/SUP] Planned obsolescence has potential benefits for a producer because to obtain continuing use of the product the consumer is under pressure to purchase again, whether from the same manufacturer (a replacement part or a newer model), or from a competitor who might also rely on planned obsolescence.[SUP][1][/SUP]


They use that to further the economy. So, people aren't getting items of quality. Far from it-- In order to fuel the economy, items have to continue to downgrade, losing quality for quantity. Another unsustainable issue.

And then this idea that you just can't trust most people who are selling you anything, including health care. Because they want to make money, and they'll lie to you. They could, in theory, purposely make you sick just so they can get more out of it.

And then looking at it from an everyday perspective-- Yes. Everyone is peddling nonsense. Pretty much everyone, anyway. And, again, yes, ENTPs are probably among the only ones who see themselves sticking out in this chaos and wondering what the fuck is going on, because everything is so wrong with the established order of things.

Governments are spying on people. People don't care, or rather, they're helpless to it, and they figure, 'Ah well, nothing will come of it anyway, they're just looking for people who aren't me.'

Everyone is in this mindset of being self-serving, self-interested, and self-absorbed. And because they're so focused on themselves, they don't see how anyone else could be focusing on them as well.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This shit needs a complete and utter overhaul.

See the NT sub-forum on Taking Over the World: http://personalitycafe.com/nts-temp...ts/167477-how-conquer-world-21-days-less.html

Word out.
 

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You're just bringin' me here 'cause you took my lasso. Now I have to tackle it bare-handed, while you watch in amusement. Sigh.



Hello, fellow Journalist! (Well, sort of. I was in a college program for Journalism for a couple of years. I like the title of 'journalist', though, it implies being investigative and biased. I mean, objective. -Cough, cough.- Somebody said my writing style is like the creator of gonzo-journalism. Apt.)

Where do I start? 'Is this an ENTP thing?' I'd think it's a concern for any intelligent person-- ENTP or not.

From my observations, we've created a monster that is 'economy', and expect that we can keep it under control, that it will serve everyone, and that it's actually the most civilized thing we can come up with.

The reality is scarcity, competition, and 'fakin' it 'til you make it'. The economy needs to grow. And not only does it need to grow, it needs to do so with increasing velocity as well as quantity.

With that kind of combination, you know it can't be stable, or obviously sustainable.

Even as a child, I saw so much cruelty. And when any of these children grew up, they plastered smiles over their scowls and made a complete U-turn into civilized, kind, and upright individuals. Observing this with incredulity, I realized that most of the world was like this. That everyone was wearing a mask, and that underneath was an uglier story.

Would a civilized world of self-aware, conscious creatures allow their own to starve, be disease-ridden, and without homes, simply due to concepts such as 'countries' and 'currency'?

Nope. Which means we aren't even a little civilized, in my view.

Most of the biggest corporations create products with planned obsolescence.

From Wikipedia:

Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence[SUP][1][/SUP] in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[SUP][1][/SUP] Planned obsolescence has potential benefits for a producer because to obtain continuing use of the product the consumer is under pressure to purchase again, whether from the same manufacturer (a replacement part or a newer model), or from a competitor who might also rely on planned obsolescence.[SUP][1][/SUP]


They use that to further the economy. So, people aren't getting items of quality. Far from it-- In order to fuel the economy, items have to continue to downgrade, losing quality for quantity. Another unsustainable issue.

And then this idea that you just can't trust most people who are selling you anything, including health care. Because they want to make money, and they'll lie to you. They could, in theory, purposely make you sick just so they can get more out of it.

And then looking at it from an everyday perspective-- Yes. Everyone is peddling nonsense. Pretty much everyone, anyway. And, again, yes, ENTPs are probably among the only ones who see themselves sticking out in this chaos and wondering what the fuck is going on, because everything is so wrong with the established order of things.

Governments are spying on people. People don't care, or rather, they're helpless to it, and they figure, 'Ah well, nothing will come of it anyway, they're just looking for people who aren't me.'

Everyone is in this mindset of being self-serving, self-interested, and self-absorbed. And because they're so focused on themselves, they don't see how anyone else could be focusing on them as well.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This shit needs a complete and utter overhaul.

See the NT sub-forum on Taking Over the World: http://personalitycafe.com/nts-temp...ts/167477-how-conquer-world-21-days-less.html

Word out.
:blushed:
 
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I think the advent of increased global integration of business (as well as economies) pushed along by social media platforms has changed the perception of how business operates but the essence is still the same. Regardless of era, it has always been "word of mouth" that began the initial push toward creating market position. That hasn't changed but rather the way you are expected to do it has. Marketing used to be confined to local markets with little possibility of someone in Switzerland or France seeing your product or aware of your company. However, the world has become smaller and the ability of business, even small business, to expand past one's locality had increased exponentially.

So, if you take a platform like Facebook which collects "likes" or twitter which creates "followers" and you have presence on them, there is an increased awareness of your product which creates the potential of snagging a customer (someone who buys your product/service). However, LOOK at the medium! The social platforms are all about creating one's own space, of customizing and carving out a niche of the internet that reflects individuality. However, product placement is about positioning your product in the broadest possible sense which dilutes individuality. It becomes a conundrum. Toss in the idea that your business also has to cater to a wider base, which contains "followers" and "customers" and your marketing message has to fit within a broader range of homogeny.

IMO, the way to capitalize on the new mediums being employed in marketing is to understand the way that you can create that individualized experience. Think of the new credit cards you can order with your own picture on them.

For anything less than a global corporation, small business is basically stuck with social media and the best viable source of advertising.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Planned obsolecence I can live with to some extent. But it seems bizarre to me that profile pages are prolifferating more than ferral cats while people try to sound all perky and positve giving you advice like don't wear brown shoes.

I've spent some time at crowdsourcing sites to get confidence and updatedness on some of my design skills. What I see is people who "know" they need a website but don't even have in mind anything they want the site to do or say. They just want a designer to fabricate something because they know they are supposed to do this.

I'm not saying its bad to be open or to have trouble expressing what you want, but it seems like people are running around in circles wanting to make noise without purpose. Or they use purpose defined by a popular mechanism to make themselves look good.

If you do something original you are taking a risk, if you verbally regurgitate the obvious - you get more likes on facebook. People are rushing to what they believe will be safe. Innovation is not safe. Innovation creates new markets.

@Quinault NDN word of mouth used to be about a product, service, or mission or something related to the value being created, and now we are stuck with stunts or email news letters full of inane crap.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
IMO, the way to capitalize on the new mediums being employed in marketing is to understand the way that you can create that individualized experience. Think of the new credit cards you can order with your own picture on them.
Yes, I resent the role of being one of the Sneetches (stars on thars) but haven't figgured up how to be a McBean. Places like Square Space or CustomInk really have something.
 

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l find l generally have trouble interpreting these discussions and sometimes can't tell when l've entered one.

Someone engaging me trying to detect my ''values'' and interests is one step ahead of me and will project things on me that l don't identify with, simply because l'm so blind to gauging their individual values, unless something about them sparks my interest :kitteh:

For that reason l don't have a specific conflict with ''promoting'' if necessary. l do find the ldentity Culture grating and isolating, really.
 

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Planned obsolecence I can live with to some extent. But it seems bizarre to me that profile pages are prolifferating more than ferral cats while people try to sound all perky and positve giving you advice like don't wear brown shoes.

I've spent some time at crowdsourcing sites to get confidence and updatedness on some of my design skills. What I see is people who "know" they need a website but don't even have in mind anything they want the site to do or say. They just want a designer to fabricate something because they know they are supposed to do this.

I'm not saying its bad to be open or to have trouble expressing what you want, but it seems like people are running around in circles wanting to make noise without purpose. Or they use purpose defined by a popular mechanism to make themselves look good.

If you do something original you are taking a risk, if you verbally regurgitate the obvious - you get more likes on facebook. People are rushing to what they believe will be safe. Innovation is not safe. Innovation creates new markets.

@Quinault NDN word of mouth used to be about a product, service, or mission or something related to the value being created, and now we are stuck with stunts or email news letters full of inane crap.
I got rid of Facebook several years ago. I see social networks as the attention-whoring devices they, for the most part, are.

These social networks only have the value of being able to stay in contact, and find people that you know or have known in the past.

Of course, making connections can also be valuable for finding work and 'moving up the employment ladder', so to speak.

But, Facebook certainly isn't that. No, when people are changing their status to something like, 'lol, cat's on fire again, brb.' It doesn't really legitimize their presence in a company.

I think I've heard of one which is purely business-- LinkedIn, or something. I avoid social networks like the plague though. I'm not really interested in fame, or shmoozing.

I think I have a kind of long distance admiration of fame, and I idealize a situation where I do something beneficial or productive for the world, and I get a nobel prize, and people come to me for advice on my field... To have a kind of obscure fame, if you will.

But, I don't even have a field, yet, and who knows if and when I will. :laughing:

Anyway, yes. Noise without purpose is an apt description. Especially in the case of Twitter.

People are driven in what they'd view as 'entertaining' circles, because they're being at least partly amused by their own antics, and thus perpetuating the cycle.

Entertainment in itself seems to be a means to an end of an era. As long as people are amused, they're less likely to riot and cause trouble for governments. Social networks of this sort are gold to governments. It keeps people occupied without interfering.

I wonder if I sound like a conspiracy theorist or something? But, really, there's obviously a lot being covered up.

Democracy is a sham, across the board. And by board, I mean world.
 

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l find l generally have trouble interpreting these discussions and sometimes can't tell when l've entered one.

Someone engaging me trying to detect my ''values'' and interests is one step ahead of me and will project things on me that l don't identify with, simply because l'm so blind to gauging their individual values, unless something about them sparks my interest :kitteh:

For that reason l don't have a specific conflict with ''promoting'' if necessary. l do find the ldentity Culture grating and isolating, really.
Nyeeaah. I might've skipped over this discussion if you hadn't lassoed me in. Mostly because there's... A lot. And to be able to intelligently sum up the extent of it, big picture-wise... :bored:

Can't say for sure though. It is a good discussion, that should be encouraged on the ENTP forum if anywhere. :laughing:
 

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Nyeeaah. I might've skipped over this discussion if you hadn't lassoed me in. Mostly because there's... A lot. And to be able to intelligently sum up the extent of it, big picture-wise... :bored:

Can't say for sure though. It is a good discussion, that should be encouraged on the ENTP forum if anywhere. :laughing:
:unsure:


No, l mean like...


Like...

l mean...

Like. The discussions the OP is talking about. Not the thread :unsure:
@Old Intern l love all your threads:blushed:
 

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Yes. Swim amongst the school dear fish. Else you'll drown in the ocean if someone doesn't spear you first.
 
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I agree that innovation is not safe place, it is risky bizness.

I think the main thrust is that marketing has never been "authentic" in any real sense. It is about appealing to the masses and selling a fiction geared toward creating desire.

The really funny thing about the Facebook Phenomena is that although it, and it's predecessor My Space, were supposed to be about individuality but are used to protect the status quo. One of the interesting things about putting your crap out there is that people also have a way to semi-anonymously pick at what is being said/posted. Watch someone say something like "I hate the color red" and see how there are a bunch of posts about "how dare you hate the color red" which results in the poster backing off their stance. So, in effect, one doesn't REALLY want to be the outlier but rather an accepted member of the Sheepies.

Then someone decides they need a Kewl new place where this kind of forced social sameness doesn't apply and makes another platform. Then eventually, by the sheer force of opening such a venue up to the masses, it also begins to see the same thing happen...."posting pictures of objects covered in poo has SO been done before...yawn"......
 

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Discussion Starter #15
@Word Dispenser, You and I can both think facebook sucks and is full of people with too much time on their hands, but businesses have to do it because everyone else is doing it. For now, my own is just a static entry like being what the phonebook used to be.

You know the old motherly saying if everyone jumped over a cliff . . . . This doesn't apply to today's business conundrum.
Businesses must be producers of content like blogs, videos and linkedIn discussions, or else let search engines burry them! So now we not only have a glut of products with very little meaningfull differentiation, we now have a glut of noise, litterally noise fabricated to be metephorically louder (more widely distributed or more frequent) than a competitor.

You could say it's just a different form but still the same old advertising thing: I think it's different. One simple example, a best selling business author, durring a "Bull Market" ecconomy, published a title "Purple Cow", it was about how companies need to be remarkable, not worry about being perfect, they need to stand out from the crowd (this is Ne heaven for marketers).
Today - in a "Bear market" - individuals are expressing themselves (FI?); it's a low cost self esteem boost, (and it keeps them occupied, not rioting) while businesses are just trying to hang on and be liked and trustable. (Si comfort and NE hell marketing strategy).

The best temperment to be in this ecconomy is INFJ? - Maybe I need one to write a blog for me?

@Quinault NDN new media, particularly social networks can be a double edged sword. PR has always been this way, but world-wide potential influence at the finger-tips of every average joe has permanently changed the game.
 
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