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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before or not, but while driving home I thought about the fine line between rationality and wisdom.

Using logic, one could pin-point a series of points of view from which to watch an event. In my case, I didn't understand why some people feel the need to do a lot of reckless things in order to reach some unknown goal, rendering me to believe that they lack wisdom, rationality, or other things... However, that's one point of view, and my first opinion regarding the matter...

A couple of minutes later, I thought that maybe he does have a good reason for his actions, I'm just unaware of them, and I have no good reason to actually react in any way... But then again, either one of my ideas could have been wiser than the other...

So would combining experience with rationality yield better wisdom ? Or is it also tied to intuition ? Or in the end we just have no idea what we're doing and anything we think of is subject to randomness... ?
 

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I personally don't believe in randomness. It is merely a word used when we don't understand or see a patern yet. Experience + rationality is always a win. It's like doing a test in science, you need rationality to do the equations but you need experience (in this case memory?) To explain definitions that otherwise you wouldn't know.

does that help?
 

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Hello,

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before or not, but while driving home I thought about the fine line between rationality and wisdom.

Using logic, one could pin-point a series of points of view from which to watch an event. In my case, I didn't understand why some people feel the need to do a lot of reckless things in order to reach some unknown goal, rendering me to believe that they lack wisdom, rationality, or other things... However, that's one point of view, and my first opinion regarding the matter...

A couple of minutes later, I thought that maybe he does have a good reason for his actions, I'm just unaware of them, and I have no good reason to actually react in any way... But then again, either one of my ideas could have been wiser than the other...

So would combining experience with rationality yield better wisdom ? Or is it also tied to intuition ? Or in the end we just have no idea what we're doing and anything we think of is subject to randomness... ?
I have this lense/paradigm when it comes to people's behaviours, that I expect all people conform to.
Values > Perception > Reaction (Rational or Instinctive) > Consequences

Something that seems stupid to me, but is performed by someone else, confirms a difference in their values/perception/reaction and provides a different set of consequences. Arguably, very negative consequences that stem from undeveloped perception & reactions will (if given sufficient feedback) demonstrated that their values are not being met satisfactorily; making them open to possible change.

All people have a different point of view, I'm sure there are times when different points of view are justified and neither is objectively better. The duty of my wisdom is to negotiate values (if you have room), exchange perceptions and provide alternative ways of treating a situation and consolidate our conclusion - as a rule I wouldn't let the fact someone else has a different POV affect my own, unless I couldn't trust my own judgement.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Ok, but wisdom is defined by having experience and good judgement, but seeing as we generally have a limited amount of knowledge about most events, how can one know his action is considered wise ? Sure, one can think he's doing the best to his knowledge, that still doesn't necessarily make it wise, no matter how logical it is.

I guess in the end "wise" can only be applied to certain circumstances/restricted contexts, as in the end there's still no way to be certain what one action's effect would be in the long run.
 

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The only thing that makes sense is nature. Every other man made abstraction either only partly makes sense, or doesnt make sense at all and we are conditioned to believe that it makes sense.
 

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I think what's being left out of the equation is the ability to build a logical model using the limited data available. For example, you are crossing the street and see a car speeding toward you... You instantly build several models in your head. One where you think you have plenty of time to get out of the way, so you keep walking; one where you aren't sure, so you step up your pace; one where you probably don't and try to dive out of the way; and one where you are obviously screwed and you freeze.

So in my opinion wisdom must include the ability to build effective models in one's mind and play them out to their logical end, in one's head, and choose the one that makes the most sense.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
What do you mean by do a bunch of reckless things? Do you mean you don't gain wisdom if you don't do some reckless to give you insight? Also, what do you define as reckless?
I mean things that involve a huge risk and in the end have a small reward, and that usually don't involve just one's self. It's up to each of us whether we gain wisdom from our actions, reckless or not.

I think what's being left out of the equation is the ability to build a logical model using the limited data available. For example, you are crossing the street and see a car speeding toward you... You instantly build several models in your head. One where you think you have plenty of time to get out of the way, so you keep walking; one where you aren't sure, so you step up your pace; one where you probably don't and try to dive out of the way; and one where you are obviously screwed and you freeze.

So in my opinion wisdom must include the ability to build effective models in one's mind and play them out to their logical end, in one's head, and choose the one that makes the most sense.
So in this particular case, wisdom would translate into speed of objective thought ?
 

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So in this particular case, wisdom would translate into speed of objective thought ?
No. The ability to build effective models is intelligence. To do it quickly is wit. To choose correctly is wisdom. But I apologize for stating it as a fact, as it is only my opinion. I welcome other opinions.

So each is independent of the other, but their efficacy is enhanced by the other(s).
 

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Discussion Starter #10
No. The ability to build effective models is intelligence. To do it quickly is wit. To choose correctly is wisdom. But I apologize for stating it as a fact, as it is only my opinion. I welcome other opinions.

So each is independent of the other, but their efficacy is enhanced by the other(s).
But how do you judge what is correct and what isn't ?
 

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But how do you judge what is correct and what isn't ?
Where I said "To choose correctly is wisdom.", I should have said that choosing correctly based upon options, resources, logical conclusion, insight, and/or experience is wisdom". If there were a pat answer for how one chooses correctly, the world would be a much different place. I don't believe there can be a single, blanket answer that applies to all situations. At least, I don't know of one. Does anyone else?

In photography, people will ask me what settings to use for a particular type of shot, but there is also no single answer. One has to first decide how they want the shot to look, then use the variables of ISO, shutter speed, aperture, lens focal length (distortion/compression), ambient light, added light, front/back/side light, shadows (desired or not), if shooting people then skin complexion (color, oiliness, sweaty, makeup), color of clothing... If landscape then time of day, position of sun/moon, is there water in the shot?, extremes of dark and light (contrasts).... But FIRST and ultimately, it comes down to how YOU want the shot to look, and no matter how you describe the desired look, only YOU will know if the final product is exactly what you envisioned.

The example of the car is sort of like that: assess the situation as well as it allows/you are able, factor the variables (known and unknown), review the possible outcomes, choose one, then execute. Whether you choose well or poorly (and if you survive) will build your wisdom IF you learn from your mistakes or are the kind of person who wants to improve on a previous outcome (good or bad).

Some people are "wise beyond their years", meaning they are able to work through these things without the obvious experience others have. That doesn't mean their solutions are necessarily "correct", because there could be more than one correct answer, and what's correct for them may not be correct for you. So another variable in the wisdom equation is 'what's right for you'.

Then there's the impact on others. This may or may not matter when you have to make the decision, and it may not matter much before or after either, so how important this is to you greatly impacts the choices you will make.

I care too much for others. I do things at a loss to benefit others. I'm regularly disappointed with the outcome. I keep doing it. Doesn't seem very wise, does it?
 

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I think it has something to do with Fluid Intelligence and Crystallized Intelligence.
Fluid is what you have when your younger and it's great for problem solving.
Crystallized is what you have when your older and it's set in what you know and learn.


The thing is Wise deals with things differently in a situation than Rationality.
I believe that Wise can be more intuitive in a sense.

Rationality is looking for what is the best outcome of a situation which is smart yes.

But Wise might not see the present benefit of always finding the best solution right away.
Maybe its not the right time, place, or duty.


Rationality might give a kid a toy because they have the money and it makes them happy.
But wise might not because it might spoil the kid in that moment but instead by them a book or something to show the kid there actions.


I gotta say that I'll always side with Wise because its never so clear, and thats how life is and always will be no matter how much you try and Rationalize it.

In that way, rationality seems to be the weaker of the two.
 

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somehow, this is the information hierarchy (so to speak) that i think exists:

Data (the most basic kind of information)
Data + basic elaboration = Information
Information + dimensions and associations = content
Content + context and scope = knowledge
Knowledge + plugs from ideology, politics, value systems, beliefs, experiential inputs, common sense = wisdom

i can see rationality taking you comfortably up to content, but thereafter, it's less logic driven and 'softer' and more creative thinking that's required.
 

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No. The ability to build effective models is intelligence.
What is an effective model? The ability to build an Effective REALITY - that is intelligence.................



<<<<<<===========Take it frum a koon!
 
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