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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It's been a long while since I've posted. Hello all.

Mainly curious about thoughts from INTPs and ENTJs

I couldn't find a thread that touched on what I am specifically wondering about, so here it is;

Please keep these things in mind:

1: Competence: I'm aware of how many INTPs loathe being incompetent. It's something that sometimes has me avoid learning/practicing new things in a social setting. I'd rather practice on my own time. But alas, everyone has to be a beginner at some point or another.

2: Criticism and Sensitivity: I'd hate to think I don't take criticism well. When constructive, I really appreciate pointers, especially when they increase efficiency.

3. The Filter: Even then, however, the pointer usually goes through my own filter - Is this sound advice? Did I know this already, or is it an obvious fact? Do I have any respect for the source of this advice? Did I ask for this advice or why did they see a need to bring it to my attention?

4. Experimentation: I have a habit of trying other variations of things despite what sound advice I've been given. They might be right, but I'm still going to test the theory for quality control just because.

The Question:

Is it just me, or do you also find yourself defensive/rebellious/passive aggressive to constant critiquing of your beginner attempts at an activity by your friend?
This friend is a respected ENTJ, and not giving idiotic pointers, but still repeating many of them at points that I decide to stray from the method. I'm not at work, this is kind of a joint project I'd asked for assistance with. I'd be capable of it myself, but likely slower, and I didn't have all the tools my friend was willing to provide.
I'm wondering if I was being sensitive, or if it was a combination of factors I don't normally react well to. Neither of us are professionals at the particular trade (but both of us experienced in separate trades using tools etc, so we're handy people), but it was mainly manual labour to do, with some beers and idle chatter on the side.
I found myself rolling my eyes at his constant obvious or repeated pointers, irate by his watching for errors (rather than picking up a tool to help), and just insulted by his thinking I needed a complete instruction in the "most efficient" way to do something that didn't have a deadline. (Does assistance mean "instruct me in your ways, oh master" to ENTJ's?)
I don't fault his argument either. His reasoning was to learn to do it efficiently before experimenting with other methods. I suppose I figured I got the concept and wanted to play around with it, I don't know. Not to mention, I didn't find it fun anymore once it became so technique based. I digress....

I'd love an outside perspective. Is this pretty typical of an INTP? Does this sound like a typical ENTJ?

 

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Not a Robot
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I don't know about ENTJs but that is how I'd react to constant watching/criticism. It's very helpful to provide instructions and advice, but if I do something by simply following instructions, I won't learn anything. I'd need to work it out and make the connections of why a certain method is more efficient or I'll just be blindly performing a task with no understanding, which I hate. In short, typical of INTPs? Don't know, but it is for me. Typical of ENTJs? No idea. Sorry.
 

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I am a Te-user and I sometimes get into hot water because my criticisms can be unintentionally insensitive and piercing. My criticisms and pointers are actually intended to encourage improvement and my perspective is that pointing out what doesn't work can be quite constructive because it stimulates others to explore new avenues.

Te-users are also goal-oriented and perhaps the ENTJ in your post does not understand that you would rather tinker instead. I would explain to him politely that you simply want to experiment and make clear that there is no deadline. Perhaps you could also explain your own thought process and how you learn best.

I do not believe that constant criticisms are constructive and I think your reaction is quite legitimate. No one likes being micro-managed.
 

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It sounds entj enough...

but I find throwing a little attitude and double entendres helps move the choke chain to the other neck...

and a little trash talk is helpful too, particularly if you're in a mood for a challenging sport..

but making it clear this isn't a work project or learning experience, just a friendly little game to see if they can measure up and sustain it.

In my experience, as obvious of a challenge it is.. it presses the right buttons to get them to take off the executive jacket, step out of the box and get their hands dirty...

of course, they are sore losers, so you should be prepared for the best out of... leading into triple digits.

and intps are only a short breath away from infps, so they might cry a little too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
if I do something by simply following instructions, I won't learn anything. I'd need to work it out and make the connections of why a certain method is more efficient or I'll just be blindly performing a task with no understanding, which I hate
Yes this describes very well what I had in mind. I'll have to try putting it that way, he might get it then. Thank you.

My criticisms and pointers are actually intended to encourage improvement and my perspective is that pointing out what doesn't work can be quite constructive because it stimulates others to explore new avenues.
I really think that's what he had in mind! Good intentions to be sure.

@Rift, I'm going to have to try that. Your post had me laughing at the accuracy and how very effective it would have been. :D

My father is an entj
I don't like to do anything with him because of the "helpful pointers"
Mine too. Which had me wondering if it was a childhood issue or not :/

Thanks guys! Im quite pleased with the incredibly useful responses.
 

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I don't know about ENTJs but that is how I'd react to constant watching/criticism. It's very helpful to provide instructions and advice, but if I do something by simply following instructions, I won't learn anything. I'd need to work it out and make the connections of why a certain method is more efficient or I'll just be blindly performing a task with no understanding, which I hate.
Pretty much this. Which leads to me telling them: "If they want a certain thing done a certain way, then do it themselves."
 

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ENTJs give lots of pointers. We think we're being helpful but we're usually not- we're used to dealing with and micro-managing idiots, so the idea that something is just for fun and we don't have a deadline is foreign to us. Your ENTJ is probably locked into "productivity mode"- you asked them to help you, so they feel responsible for the outcome, and want to ensure it's the best outcome possible.

Tell them straight-out not to do this in the future. We're usually not paying too much attention to if it's bothering you or not, mostly because we just don't notice that much. We can read people, but if we've categorized you as "good worker" or "will listen to me", we can get kinda spacey.

But yeah, slap that out of them. You're a friend, not a lackey. Remind them you're not an idiot and point out when they're giving extra advice, explain you're trying it a different way and you don't care if it may not be the "right" or most efficient way, you want to try your way and see how it works. 1. Their head will explode. 2. You will both be happier.
 
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My brother is ESTJ, he does "helpful pointers" too, it is so annoying, that I just yesterday had to tell him I didn't want to do anything with him from than on
 

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ENTJs give lots of pointers. We think we're being helpful but we're usually not- we're used to dealing with and micro-managing idiots
Exactly. That's usually the kind of "help" I hate. Micromanagement and stating the obvious again and again as if I am an idiot. Especially if it's someone who knows less than me, and tells me what I do already know, just struggle to materialize it for whatever reason.

I passionately hate the kind of micro-management / help that aims to express "benevolent authority" over others.
 

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"I am not an idiot. I remembered your pointers *proceeds and repeats all pointers and advices* Now leave me to try my own thing, ok? Beer is over here, weed is over there, enjoy yourself while I experiment with this and that"

I'd get irritated if the pointers continue after that and most likely give up on the project altogether. That or kicking his/hers "helpful" ass out of the room and do my shit as I see fit.
 

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I prefer for someone to criticize me, personally. But when emotions get involved with the criticism, I tend to flee, or dislike the person's point of view/opinion because of the genuinely insulting nature given at that point.
 
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