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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How much do you think you should have to say "well that's not really my point" before you decide this person may not have the capacity to understand you?

This happens quite often to me, and maybe I've just spent too much time with people who are wrong for me?

My guess is that most people are so full of fears and insecurities, and emotional reactions or evaluative thinking that they are reading me through how they think I should feel? Often, If I think some investment has been made to be closer with someone, I will do some problem solving/brainstorming type talking - but they seem to hear something else different from what I thought I was saying.

One example would be how someone told me recently that I have a lot of grit? but I think that says more about them than me. Do you ever have this? Do you just respect your own opinions and ideas and accept that you may as well keep a lot to yourself?

These same people talk about trust. Trust? I don't think you intend to damage me, it is just too much work - like I speak a foreign language from you.
 

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Location, location, location. If you want better conversation you must go out and seek it in unusual places. And you also have to give up on the people, places and activities which are stifling your intellect and creativity.

I like to go to the city and find obscure little bars or cafes where the artists and the intellectuals frequent. Even if you aren't near any large cities, most towns have one of these places. There you meet people from all walks of life who know the beauty of a real conversation. :)
 

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Exhausting isn't it?

I think there might be something to the insecurities angle. I often run into the issue of people refusing to even try to think abstractly, no matter how many variation and different way to paint a verbal picture of an idea or concept I attempt (sometimes actually paint a picture - with Ketchup - long story).
There are times when it almost feels like the idea is a physical force that if they would stop trying to dodge it there would be a moment of enlightenment.
There are those people that try to catch the idea. Those I keep. I can always try again one I have some new ways to describe the idea.

(Sorry, if that was no where near your point)
 

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Alternative ways to view it:

1. The person who has to say, "That's not really my point..." over and over again, is running into the same results because the problem of ineffectively communicating an aspect of their idea remains unchanged.

2. People evaluate mostly based off of personal experiences. I recognize in you what x was in me. While accurate interpretation is more likely when the one evaluating remembers to ask, "Am I seeing x, or is it y to you?" many people just get so excited about recognizing x in somebody else that they ride the excitement instead of checking for y. They could be perfectly capable of understanding what your "real" point was, but the birdy makes them happy enough they don't feel the absence of your idea or the need to find out what it is. You have already satisfied them, and it doesn't necessarily mean they would be disinterested in your "real" point.

3. Much of conversation in every-day life, particularly between acquaintances, and for more community-driven people, revolves around meeting the social status quo. Conversation is a tool for maintaining ease between individuals, at work and in every other human environment (it's also a tool for breaking that ease, but that's a topic for elsewhere). I'm talking to you because I benefit from performing this ritual as a means of maintaining stability in my environment. When performing the ritual is the goal, success can be reached merely by having a smooth back and forth, positive conversation, so the goal of understanding content accurately falls to the back-burner. This survival-oriented approach to conversation can be really successful at managing energy levels in one's day-to-day life. I would argue that this one is more a matter of differing priorities than an incapacity for understanding.

4. They've been bit by the distraction bug and CAN catch up, but haven't been given the time required to do so, or are further distracted by embarrassment at missing something you said and put their efforts toward saying anything in the hopes you won't notice the mishap.



But that one kind of goes without saying.

5. Disinterest. Also goes without saying.

6. "If I think some investment has been made to be closer with someone, I will do some problem solving/brainstorming type talking - but they seem to hear something else different from what I thought I was saying." Depending on what kind of solving you were doing, you might be giving the listeners the impression that you have a problem you're looking for answers for (which may give them the impression you are distressed), or that your critical thinking means you have the other kind of problem with something (the disapproving-jerk kind). If they come to the Are they distressed? conclusion, they've already been taken out of the mindset of idea-probing and need to know you're fine before they can get back into it. If they come to the What's his problem? conclusion, again, already out of the ideas = fun mindset and have retreated to the Lets get this over with one.

7. People can sense when they are being held under an intelligence x-ray. The sensation that you're being evaluated and held to an unknown standard can really hamper a human's head intestines from functioning correctly
:tongue:.
 

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8. You're doing fantastically and people suck.

*edit*
9. You have fantastically good looks and people can't think past their raging attraction.

10. Your brain and your mouth work at a different pace than theirs. By the time they've got one piece handled, you've already left them in the dust.

Entirely possible lol.
 

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I prefer to continue talking with the topic that magically came up, it'll confused him/her more, and it'll technically be his/her fault due to driving the conversation with his/her stupid.
Either way hilarious conversation for me, frustration/entertainment for him/her, win/win for me either way.
 

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That's my biggest problem with people. They can't remove themselves emotionally from the conversation to develop/analyze ideas.
 

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You may be unconsciously filling in some information in your head, and not out loud, so the listener is not hearing the entire argument. ENTPs tend to talk and think rapidly. I find if I am fired up, I might get ahead of myself in my head and I am not paying as much attention to what is coming out of my mouth. I have to consciously think about what I am saying. It is fine if I am not fired up. Usually my head is somewhat in line with my mouth. You also may not be giving them enough time to process the information and it is getting jumbled.

Also, I find I adjust my conversation to the audience. If it is a topic that they do not bite on, I stop talking about it. It is no fun to talk just to hear yourself talk. I find some types cannot talk about a sensitive political/social/etc. issue without taking offense (ES type). Some types (usually ISFJ/ISTJ) are not interested in world topics unless they directly affect them and tend to want to talk about themselves or their interactions with people. They are the types you can play armchair psychologist with (and like a psychologist just lead them to their solutions without them realizing you are doing it). You don't usually have to walk on eggshells around INTJs/ENTJs. I will say though that this came with maturity. I know I used to bore people with my interest in something that they obviously were not as interested in when I was younger. Sometime in my 20s, I learned to adjust my conversation style to my audience.
 

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It's the reason I read certain mbti forums so often. It's an isolating experience to feel like this all the time and only occasionally stumbling upon a person that can provide some true satisfaction in a conversation. Reading entp forums I can at least get a bit of satisfaction online even if it can't be in person in a live conversation over drinks or something.It's enough to get by on realizing we all deal with the same shit and frustrations.
 

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I'm going through a period of time where I take a passive role in some conversations, especially with people who talk a lot about ideas/concepts, and be the one who make them say "That's not my point". Especially if that was clearly their point and I'm just adding a new perspective or information that they didn't have.

Did this last week with a co worker who used a poor example. He usually rants on end about his perspective on things and rarely invites new perspectives or thoughts. He wants you to either be in awe of his mental capacity or agree fully. This doesn't work for me when the mind is somewhat closed to additional informations, ideas or concepts. When someone overlooks that ideas and concepts can flow and can always be rebuilt, be expanded. Makes it tedious and uninteresting.

I did it again the same day when we entered a subject where he isn't as well versed. He was stuck on "it's the law" I had to break it down to: yeah dude, but theory and what is actually being done IRL. Sometimes they differ vastly. So it doesn't matter if it's the law. If no body is following it to the letter. Also change takes time and demands resources and even if it is the law, it might take time to make the transition and transformation to be able to follow the law in a manner that the fulfills what a law is intended to bring forth.

I've also become better at say: this is my point-introduce point, trying to keep it shorter and make it closed. Which just makes it boring in the long run.

I'm doing this cause I got sick of saying "not my point." "That's not what I'm saying" "You just skipped half of what I said" "did you even listen to what I just said?"

Although @Geonerd did have a good point. I know that I often skip large parts of my thoughts cause it's difficult to keep track sometimes. Especially if I'm very fired up in the moment.

Also I prefer actual conversation to me ranting/the other person ranting. Monologues gives me little. But it's rare that you find people who are interested in/able to have conversations on an array of topics. Come to think of it I think I've ended up with a group of friends that, when I combine them, can provide a little bit of everything. Some love current events, some like fashion, some loves to talk about people and their life. So if I space out my time with each of them. It ain't half bad. (Lol. Although conversations about which mascara is better makes me wanna beat my head against a wall.)

And like @devoid pointed out, if you wanna find good conversations there are places to seek them out. They can be very rewarding in the conversation department. :happy:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Alternative ways to view it:

1. The person who has to say, "That's not really my point..." over and over again, is running into the same results because the problem of ineffectively communicating an aspect of their idea remains unchanged.

2. People evaluate mostly based off of personal experiences. I recognize in you what x was in me. While accurate interpretation is more likely when the one evaluating remembers to ask, "Am I seeing x, or is it y to you?" many people just get so excited about recognizing x in somebody else that they ride the excitement instead of checking for y. They could be perfectly capable of understanding what your "real" point was, but the birdy makes them happy enough they don't feel the absence of your idea or the need to find out what it is. You have already satisfied them, and it doesn't necessarily mean they would be disinterested in your "real" point.

3. Much of conversation in every-day life, particularly between acquaintances, and for more community-driven people, revolves around meeting the social status quo. Conversation is a tool for maintaining ease between individuals, at work and in every other human environment (it's also a tool for breaking that ease, but that's a topic for elsewhere). I'm talking to you because I benefit from performing this ritual as a means of maintaining stability in my environment. When performing the ritual is the goal, success can be reached merely by having a smooth back and forth, positive conversation, so the goal of understanding content accurately falls to the back-burner. This survival-oriented approach to conversation can be really successful at managing energy levels in one's day-to-day life. I would argue that this one is more a matter of differing priorities than an incapacity for understanding.

4. They've been bit by the distraction bug and CAN catch up, but haven't been given the time required to do so, or are further distracted by embarrassment at missing something you said and put their efforts toward saying anything in the hopes you won't notice the mishap.



But that one kind of goes without saying.

5. Disinterest. Also goes without saying.

6. "If I think some investment has been made to be closer with someone, I will do some problem solving/brainstorming type talking - but they seem to hear something else different from what I thought I was saying." Depending on what kind of solving you were doing, you might be giving the listeners the impression that you have a problem you're looking for answers for (which may give them the impression you are distressed), or that your critical thinking means you have the other kind of problem with something (the disapproving-jerk kind). If they come to the Are they distressed? conclusion, they've already been taken out of the mindset of idea-probing and need to know you're fine before they can get back into it. If they come to the What's his problem? conclusion, again, already out of the ideas = fun mindset and have retreated to the Lets get this over with one.

7. People can sense when they are being held under an intelligence x-ray. The sensation that you're being evaluated and held to an unknown standard can really hamper a human's head intestines from functioning correctly
:tongue:.
This is good - your top 2 paragraphs, but I mostly do a great job of understanding what other people mean, and feeding it back to them in my own paraphrase - so much so they seem to think I am drop dead wonderful - I mean if I'm going into a social situation where I expect to "be sociable".

My problem may be something I should change about how I communicate about myself, dunno. I am asking myself this. It seems like most people expect me to feel certain ways or expect I want what they assume everyone wants - to the point that they try waaayyyy too hard to read between the lines - when I did not put anything between the lines. It's as if they are trying to push connections or resonance on me - but they read me wrong to begin with.

A big part of this may be - I'm small framed, single with no children, and will be 54 this summer. I made the choices I made. I have hit a wall in my career life, but honestly believe this is only a matter of re positioning that I have nearly handled now.
My point even here, with saying this - is that I wonder (because of how conversations go too often) if people are uncomfortable with me - like they need a box to put me in - so they look for any excuse to uncover some big mystery or deep scars.

I just want to live my life. I get philosophical about movies, I wonder about scientific theories, social and cultural trends, I read quite a bit of non-fiction. I'm not deep into academia on any one subject, but thoughts just come to me and people want to believe I'm hinting at something else. They make some comment that makes me think the whole time spent with this person was not at all what I thought it was.
 

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What sucks for me is that sometimes, the person I am talking to is beating around the bush and I'm just standing there - letting him/her finish, even though I'm already very sure what the person is trying to say.

It's fine though, it gives me extra time to think of what I want to say.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
You may be unconsciously filling in some information in your head, and not out loud, so the listener is not hearing the entire argument. ENTPs tend to talk and think rapidly. I find if I am fired up, I might get ahead of myself in my head and I am not paying as much attention to what is coming out of my mouth. I have to consciously think about what I am saying. It is fine if I am not fired up. Usually my head is somewhat in line with my mouth. You also may not be giving them enough time to process the information and it is getting jumbled.

Also, I find I adjust my conversation to the audience. If it is a topic that they do not bite on, I stop talking about it. It is no fun to talk just to hear yourself talk. I find some types cannot talk about a sensitive political/social/etc. issue without taking offense (ES type). Some types (usually ISFJ/ISTJ) are not interested in world topics unless they directly affect them and tend to want to talk about themselves or their interactions with people. They are the types you can play armchair psychologist with (and like a psychologist just lead them to their solutions without them realizing you are doing it). You don't usually have to walk on eggshells around INTJs/ENTJs. I will say though that this came with maturity. I know I used to bore people with my interest in something that they obviously were not as interested in when I was younger. Sometime in my 20s, I learned to adjust my conversation style to my audience.
This is very true - not knowing what the missing part is - but usually for something like business I can see something in the persons face, that they are not following me; I ask them something and can quickly see where they were/are, and correct course.

I would like to blame my problem on "Sensors", or that I too often meet people with over-active Fi - but that would be taking a cop-out. OR maybe I actually Do Need to meet new people, and try to be involved socially in some other way I haven't done before.

Yesss - the not talking just to hear yourself talk part. The problem with this is that eventually "friendships" are nothing but me working hard at being polite, being a good sport about what they need to go on about. "Friends" have no idea how much I put into listening to them and they have the audacity to say I don't "care" enough and don't contribute to the relationship.
 

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This is very true - not knowing what the missing part is - but usually for something like business I can see something in the persons face, that they are not following me; I ask them something and can quickly see where they were/are, and correct course.

I would like to blame my problem on "Sensors", or that I too often meet people with over-active Fi - but that would be taking a cop-out. OR maybe I actually Do Need to meet new people, and try to be involved socially in some other way I haven't done before.

Yesss - the not talking just to hear yourself talk part. The problem with this is that eventually "friendships" are nothing but me working hard at being polite, being a good sport about what they need to go on about. "Friends" have no idea how much I put into listening to them and they have the audacity to say I don't "care" enough and don't contribute to the relationship.
It is quite funny because almost all the friends I have really do not know much about me deeply or my personal feelings and I think most of them never even noticed it. Even people I have been friends with for 10+ years. I spend a lot of time listening to them but they glaze over when I talk about myself, so I rarely do it. It is interesting because I find most of the people closest to me are introverts and introverts spend ALOT of time thinking about themselves and how the world affects them and then talk to people they are close to about it (there are a few exceptions- for example my sister in law is a IxFJ nurse and generally diverts attention to everyone else). I don't know if it is because they don't talk as much to other people throughout the day so they let it out to the ones for which they are comfortable. I have been told that I have good incite into situations but seriously they rarely ask me how I am doing (and actually want to know-usually it is bait to have me ask them how they are doing). Conversely, some extroverts (especially ExFx) types over dominate the conversation and only ask questions to you so that they can bring up another point. You usually can tell that they are thinking about what they are going to say next instead of listening. When I was younger and immature I could be guilty of that.

The only type that I find follow me quickly, don't get offended, and have good bounce back in conversations are other ENTPs or ENTJs. However, I only like those types in small doses and tend not have them as long term friends but only as acquaintances. INTPs and INTJs are ok but they aren't as quick and also have that me-centric thing (when they are very comfortable with you).
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Maybe I should add . . . . . .

Most of my life I've been self employed and I was in a longish long term relationship. The ex boyfriend was maybe unhappy for quite a few of the last years. He might have been a little passive agressive-ish about it and I didn't know. In hind-sight that seemed to be like the proverbial boiling lobster - I didn't know things went bad because it was gradual. We both just faded out of the picture for each other when I was going through career stress. He occasionally emails me like maybe he just hasn't found anybody better.

I said all that to say maybe part of staying in that relationship was that it made marital status a non-issue. I don't mean I now need to get laid. I mean, in my work and other areas of life I could have conversations with men and not be trying to date them. I could be polite to married women friends, while not having maryr issues about house-keeping (I had my own place and it was work-at-home-non-neat freak life). But all my life it has seemed more often that conversations are split - let them talk, and maybe sometimes they will indulge me to talk about something actually on my mind - not two people equally invested in one conversation back and forth. - But I did have that from my work life (2 way, working on projects, having strong opinions or idea talk etc.)

Now certain core things have changed. I let my hair go grey because I thought It might be better for work - to be the older lady who keeps up and likes being around young people - rather than the middle aged woman who "must have issues".

It might even be easier for me if I was gay but I don't think I am. But being someone in a long-term relationship - and NOT a wife or mother - gave people a box to put me in? something close enough to accurate?

I will be putting myself out there for biz networking soon. I've been regrouping but laid-low for a while. Thing is, I want my work-life to be satisfactory before anything else. I want to be less isolated without turning to dating just because it is easy to run into guys who are lonely (and depressing). I want a functional work-life "second act" and I want to be able to have some fun, but not necessarily have to pair up with anybody. . . . . if you say that - old guys think you are going to be available for a "good time" - I don't exactly mean that either.
@Geonerd thank button has not appeared yet but I relate a lot to your above post.
 

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I do tend to run into conversations where I'll be trying to rephrase the same thing again and again, they still don't get the point, and I just give up and let them have the floor. I can be very patient, but sometimes it just seems that it's better to move on.

Most of the time, it seems the individual just isn't that interested in understanding, though. I've often found myself in a kind of 'teaching role', and my students aren't really patient enough to learn. :laughing:
 

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Maybe I should add . . . . . .

Most of my life I've been self employed and I was in a longish long term relationship. The ex boyfriend was maybe unhappy for quite a few of the last years. He might have been a little passive agressive-ish about it and I didn't know. In hind-sight that seemed to be like the proverbial boiling lobster - I didn't know things went bad because it was gradual. We both just faded out of the picture for each other when I was going through career stress. He occasionally emails me like maybe he just hasn't found anybody better.

I said all that to say maybe part of staying in that relationship was that it made marital status a non-issue. I don't mean I now need to get laid. I mean, in my work and other areas of life I could have conversations with men and not be trying to date them. I could be polite to married women friends, while not having maryr issues about house-keeping (I had my own place and it was work-at-home-non-neat freak life). But all my life it has seemed more often that conversations are split - let them talk, and maybe sometimes they will indulge me to talk about something actually on my mind - not two people equally invested in one conversation back and forth. - But I did have that from my work life (2 way, working on projects, having strong opinions or idea talk etc.)

Now certain core things have changed. I let my hair go grey because I thought It might be better for work - to be the older lady who keeps up and likes being around young people - rather than the middle aged woman who "must have issues".

It might even be easier for me if I was gay but I don't think I am. But being someone in a long-term relationship - and NOT a wife or mother - gave people a box to put me in? something close enough to accurate?

I will be putting myself out there for biz networking soon. I've been regrouping but laid-low for a while. Thing is, I want my work-life to be satisfactory before anything else. I want to be less isolated without turning to dating just because it is easy to run into guys who are lonely (and depressing). I want a functional work-life "second act" and I want to be able to have some fun, but not necessarily have to pair up with anybody. . . . . if you say that - old guys think you are going to be available for a "good time" - I don't exactly mean that either.
@Geonerd thank button has not appeared yet but I relate a lot to your above post.
I find as an ENTP woman, men sometimes can be a lot easier to talk to than other women. It feels like we are more wired like them in a way. Unfortunately, I found that unless you both are in committed relationships, the man either ends up wanting to take things in the romantic direction or their significant other thinks you have an ulterior motive when all you wanted was friendship.

Good luck on figuring out what you want. My INTJ good friend (who saves up all her talking in the day to talk to me about all the things affecting her:wink:) and is a successful, 40ish, single woman just in the last year finally accepted that she is not the type to get married and accepted who she is. She luckily found a group of other mature, straight, single women that have being foodies in common so she doesn't feel like she is the odd woman out (I know I unintentionally make her feel that way because I live what is expected as the typical life of a 40ish woman-husband, 2 kids, house, full time career, suburbs-no minivan thank god!) I imagine it is harder as an ENTP because, although we don't mind being alone, hermit life is not our thing and having someone to pull along on adventures (or at least dinner) is something we crave. There are less people available the older we get because many of them are obligated to a spouse and/or kids and can't hang out as often.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Yes - your friend found a good answer. I will find something, not sure what yet. In the past, before the last SO, if I had a social lull I would get involved in some organized church thing - just because it was obvious and handy. I need to figure out a better fit now though. Often I didn't quite buy into the whole program, and maybe that will always be true, but nobody forced me to prolong dating scenarios just because society says you should have an escort - I did that to myself.

You sound like you have a good life. I'm happy about others being happy. I just don't want advise from people in my life who complain about their own life and who don't seem to get that I am not them. (and not being them doesn't mean I'm screwed up )

Some new social outlet or club along side of basic networking might be just the thing. Some activity that has something to it, and not just an excuse for depressed old guys to cruise chicks (I truly visited Mc Donalds in the morning for cheap coffee!).
 
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