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Recover from the Fe steamroll: Support Group for INFPs with ESFJ mothers

[INFP] 
6K views 49 replies 21 participants last post by  ethylester 
#1 ·
There seem to have been quite a few threads that involve ESFJ moms lately, and I thought the special brand of stress they can cause deserved its own thread. I'm going to refrain from speaking too much about my own mother for the moment, because well, she isn't the healthiest person emotionally regardless of her type. But others with Fe whiplash, come vent and commiserate with the rest of us lazy, alien, robotic yet emotionally volatile disappointments. *Starts making tea and preparing internet hugs*

INFPs who have ESFJ mothers they actually get along with well, what is your secret? Are they really perceptive, or have you just figured out how to coexist with them without getting your Fi singed?
 
#2 ·
This is an exciting thread. I have noticed a lot of INFPs out there with ESFJ mothers as well. Maybe just because I am one such INFP. I hope people post here, I'd love to have a chance to see how the rest of you cope.

So, I'm 32 and still trying very hard to get along with my mom. I think I get about 2% better at dealing with her each year. So it's a s-l-o-w climb. Very slow. She is the person in this world who made me the most angry, caused me the most grief, has witnessed a horrible side of me repeatedly, gotten into the most fights with me and has been the reason for probably more of my tears than anyone else in this world. (that last one, just maybe). I cannot be myself around her at all. I physically and emotionally cannot. It's impossible. She doesn't know who I am, she hasn't witnessed the real me close up. It sounds presumptuous to say your own mother hasn't seen the real you, but I feel like there is so much of me that she doesn't understand or even care to understand.

I am very scared of the time when she becomes unable to take care of herself. She's in her 60's, lives alone, divorced and I'm her only child. I'm her only family member within hundreds of miles. It's going to be up to me to figure out what happens to her when she starts deteriorating. I hate thinking about this because deep inside, I really do love her and I don't want her to slip away. But I'm scared because we have such a horrible relationship to the point where most people might take their parent under their wing and let them live with them, or go visit them every day and bathe them and feed them and whatnot... I don't know if that's gonna happen with me. I feel like I've been serving her my whole life already...

Do the rest of you feel like servants to your mothers? Does you mom constantly boss you around and expect you to help her with every little thing? Does she lay huge guilt trips on you if you don't have the time to devote to all the little things she needs help with?

I lived four hours away from my mother for two years. She never came to visit me voluntarily. I found this strange because she was always emailing me, asking when I was coming to visit her. I felt like she wanted to see me. So when I would actually come visit, I thought we were going to have a good conversation, I thought she would want to hear what I've been up to, how my new life is going, etc. But my visits were always met with disappointment. Her ulterior motives for getting me to come visit her were so I could help her do chores. She needed something moved and it took two people. She needed me to take some of my stuff out of her garage. She needed help with her computer, etc. I can remember one visit, I spent most of the time sitting in her living room reading magazines while she was on the phone. She didn't care I was there. That hurt. So I wrote her a letter - a very long and harsh letter. I confronted her on why she never came to visit me and why she wanted me to visit her when all I did was chores during my visits. What was her reaction? She came to visit me right away. Just that one time. And that was it. My dad had come to visit me probably 10 times. She only came once. Because I asked her.

This is how it feels all the time. She rambles on and on about herself. Never cares to ask anything meaningful to me about my life. She assumes that everything she thinks is wonderful and amazing would be the same thing I think is wonderful and amazing. When I finally do open up or tell her something important about me, she scolds me and lectures me. If she doesn't see the value in what I value, then it's just silly. I play music as a hobby. I have CD's of my music out there. Does she ever want a copy of it? No. Does she ever ask about it? No. What does she call my music? "Little songs". Yep, she has a daughter who writes "little songs" oh how adorable and childish of her. ... anyway... you can see where this is going. My interests are silly, hers are important and noteworthy. That's always been the way it is. I have learned not to talk anymore. I just do what I'm told for the hour I'm at her house. I eat her food and say please and thank you and then I leave. That's our relationship.

What about the rest of you folks? Can you relate? I'd love to hear an ESFJ's side to this. But my guess is most ESFJs don't go to PerC to find out about themselves and connect with others. Just a guess.
 
#4 · (Edited)
-----First of all, sign me up for the support group.
I feel like I've been serving her my whole life already...
-----My personal experience follows @ethylester, even in the specifics, to such an extent that it is uncanny. My attitude toward my mother is also very similar. It's not that I don't love and value her; it's that I cannot stand interacting with her, if it can truly be called interaction. She seems to be all take and no give. She seems to be all talk and never listen. Emotionally invalidating and intrusive, she seems more interested in controlling me than in understanding me--still.
-----The never visiting thing has always struck me as odd, too. But perhaps it is an Extrovert thing that friends/family out of sight and also out of mind. If you easily make new friends, it seems like friends have less worth and are mostly interchangeable (it's a supply/demand sort of thing). The way I phrased that is not meant to be mean--but I can't phrase it in a way that does not show my Introvert bias. Sorry. But I think the real reason my mother doesn't visit is because of issues of territoriality--and it is also an SJ thing, I think. She sees it as my duty to visit her--and not vice-versa. Also, when I do call, I usually end up on the receiving end of a two-hour monologue (that is not hyperbole, which I feel I need to point out to outsiders). Just having someone listen, with the occasional, "Oh, yeah?" energizes her (and drains me). She doesn't need any interaction in a phone call to get something out of it. See, it's my duty to listen. So while as an INFP (or maybe it's my Type-9) I am inclined to accommodate others' perspectives, once it becomes too one-sided, I detach. After all, when has she once, ever accommodated my perspective or tried to understand me? If you want me to speak in your love language, then speak back in mine.
-----ethylester, her phone calls to you to come over and help do chores are probably not-so-subtle reminders that you are supposed to be dutiful. Consider reading up on the 5 Love Languages if you haven't already. All of the SJs I know have Acts of Service as their primary love language. It's why they're so resistant to casual help or asking for casual help. It's why they only ask their closest friends for help and reject help from people they don't know well. It's hard for me to see chore-doing as love. It seems so self-serving and superficial. But they probably think the same about the other love languages.
-----I've read about various theories of the origins of personality type (nature v. nurture). The scientific conclusion seems to be that it is genetic, with the population percentages originating from an evolutionary balance. However, I can't help but wonder if who I would have been under a more supportive parent would have had a personality more closely corresponding to a different type. Of course, my little sister from a different mother, also likely an ESFJ, is an INFP. My stepmother is very kind and supportive, but she still has that tendency to freely direct and tell others who to be, what to do, what to thing, etc. But it is done in such a different way. It is tolerable and mostly reasonable. My little sister has a head start in life by comparison. But she is 15, and she is starting to rebel. I guess we'll see if the ship weathers the storm with less damage. For both of their sakes, I hope so.
I wonder why ESFJs are so looked down upon. Even in their healthy states, people say ESFJs are quite possibly the worst. Odd. o_O Healthy ESFJs are quite wonderful.
-----I wonder if the extent to which an ESFJ mother is self-aware and healthy corresponds to a positive or negative experience for INFPs who have them as parents. I wholeheartedly agree with what Julia Bell says, above. Every person and personality has value. But what happens, or what has happened for me, is that enough negative interaction with a person of a certain personality type essentially drains you of all patience for all people with that personality type. It's not fair, but it's what happens. I avoid ESFJs, but I recognize that it is because I know I cannot approach that kind of interaction positively. That's not their issue; it's mine. It only becomes their issue if they don't relent after I have explained my boundaries.
-----And, ultimately, one can end up with less and less tolerance of other personality types so that the list of people one gets along with can become quite short. Three decades into life, now, my list is quite short. I tend to get along well with other NFs, INTJs (post-college), ISFJs, and ISFPs. And to be perfectly honest, my life has been much more harmonious despite the exclusivity.
-----Unlike many Fi users, I don't view my individuality as absolute. There is a social contract. I recognize that it is reasonable to expect that a certain amount of self-restraint and limitation of expression must occur for civilization to function. However, that reasonable range is so quickly, readily, and totally surpassed (without any acknowledgment of your attempt to meet them halfway) by some people and types that I know it is impossible to get along with them, and that's fine. Yes, this country has a Constitution, but this country also has a Bill of Rights, and our individual rights are defined in terms of limitations on government (the group). The governments of the original 13 colonies refused to ratify the Constitution without a guarantee of protection of individual rights. More and more, it seems many people are forgetting that. At some point, the suppression of individuality outweighs the benefit of being a part of a group. Guess what happens then: rebellion. Having just fought with England over this very issue, the Founding Fathers and the 13 colonies valued their individual rights and realized that to survive over the long haul, the government must also respect individual rights--that the power of the group to demand conformity is limited in scope and breadth.
-----Once we lost my grandfather, my mother has been the primary caregiver for my grandmother. Since then, I have been able to better see her as authentically caring when before I saw only the negative, manipulative, controlling, judgmental, and suppressing elements of her. But because she brings out the worst in me, I tend to stay away, which is easy since several States separate us.
-----I found that PersonalityPage was very accurate on this:
-----"ESFJs are warm-hearted individuals who highly value their close personal relationships. They are very service-oriented, and their own happiness is closely tied into the happiness and comfort of those around them. They are valued for their genuine warm and caring natures, and their special ability to bring out the best in others. They usually do not handle conflict well, and may tend to be very controlling or manipulative. Relationships are central to their lives, and they put forth a great amount of energy into developing and maintaining their close interpersonal relationships. They expect the same from others."
-----ESFJ Strengths
Put forth a lot of effort to fulfill their duties and obligations
Warm, friendly and affirming by nature
Service-oriented, they want to please others
Take their commitments very seriously, and seek lifelong relationships
Responsible and practical, they can be counted to take care of day-to-day necessities
Generally upbeat and popular, people are drawn towards them
Generally very good money managers
Traditionally minded and family-oriented, they will make family celebrations and traditions special events
-----ESFJ Weaknesses
Generally uncomfortable with change, and moving into new territories
Extreme dislike of conflict and criticism
Need a lot of positive affirmation to feel good about themselves
May be overly status-conscious, and interested in how others see them
Have very difficult time accepting the end of a relationship, and are likely to take the blame for the failure onto their own shoulders
Have difficulty accepting negative things about people close to them
Don't pay enough attention to their own needs, and may be self-sacrificing
May tend to use guilt manipulation as a way to get what they want
-----ESFJs as Parents
-----"As parents, ESFJs are extremely committed to their roles and duties, and contain and freely express a great deal of love and affection for their children. They expect their children to honor, respect and obey their parents, and do not tolerate well any deviance from this rule of behavior. Their Feeling preference makes it difficult for them to punish or discipline their children. If they have not worked on overcoming this issue, they may tend to punish their children in less obvious ways, such as using guilt manipulation. This is a potential pitfall for the ESFJ to overcome. It is generally more effective and more healthy to directly issue punishment when called for."
-----"The ESFJ is very service-oriented and concerned with the comfort and happiness of those around them. Consequently, their children are likely to have their practical needs taken care of very efficiently and responsibly. Their ESFJ parents will create structured environments for the children, where their boundaries will be well-defined and known."
-----"The ESFJ's tendency to be controlling, combined with their emphasis on tradition and security, makes it likely that they will be at least somewhat strict and controlling of their children. However, they will also be their children's strongest, loudest advocate. Children of ESFJ parents are likely to rebel from their authority at some point, which will cause a stressful time for both parent and child. In this case, the ESFJ natural tendency is to make their children feel guilty about their behavior. Depending on the extent of the guilt manipulation, this may cause serious damage to the relationship."
-----"Most ESFJs are remembered fondly by their children for their genuine love and affection, and for the well-defined structure and guidelines they created for their children."
-----ESFJ Relationships.
~~~~----~~~~----~~~~
-----My bias is that I see the bold in such high definition that it is difficult to see what's not bolded (the good).
 
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#3 ·
I know I'm an ENFP (-slips in through door sheepishly-), so I may be slightly out of place, but we are a bit similar. I might as well put in my two cents. I have an ESFJ mother and an ISTJ father. I have an ESTJ sister. My brother is an INTP. As you can see, a very SJ heavy family. My brother (the oldest) and I (the middle child) are the only ones to be NPs. However, unlike some who have bad experiences with ESFJs or SJs, my mother has done nothing but good to me.

There isn't much of a secret. She has always listened to me, my interests, and gently yet sternly reprimanded me when I needed it. There have been times where I wish she were looser in some areas and tighter in others. However, nobody is perfect. My father has also been nothing but good. I am very close to all of my family members. They get on my nerves sometimes, but that is likely to happen in families. ^^

I wonder how many people actually have ESFJ mothers. Or do they simply view the stereotype (which is quite nasty) and match it up? I wonder why ESFJs are so looked down upon. Even in their healthy states, people say ESFJs are quite possibly the worst. Odd. o_O Healthy ESFJs are quite wonderful.

The area of trouble I have had with my mother has simply been where I want to keep things loose, but she wants me to be more organized. XD Well, that and sometimes I feel like some of my feelings are misunderstood. But those misunderstood feelings are the ones that I have kept deep inside me that I don't show often. So it makes sense that those would be the misunderstood ones. Not my INTP brother, not a lot of people would understand those feelings. Probably because I don't often try to explain them.

My mom, though, is very intuitive and generally understand me. She has been supportive 100%. She listens to me and treats me as an equal - not like a teenager. She has passed down her wisdom to me. And it seems every year I realize just how talented and smart and wise she is. Although she doesn't give herself enough credit at all. She is definitely perceptive. She surprised me sometimes just how perceptive she is. And I, sometimes, surprise her in just how many emotions I pick up coming from her. Sometimes I see it in her eyes that she sees something in me that I do not even see. Not just yet. But she knows it is there. And sometimes she tells me. Those moments mean so much to me. :)

I couldn't tell you the secret. Truth be told, I don't think there is one. ^^
 
#6 ·
I think it's not that they think their esfj mothers are bad people but there is a certain dynamic at play that is very common they wish to address, fe-fi misunderstanding.

But I'll add the sentiment, my parents are infj and intp, and my family life is extremely difficult, for reasons unclear to me. I feel there would be problems even if we were all Fi dom or at least used Fi somewhere in there. My friend for example has an infp father and he has been primary concerned with pursuing his self-actualization his entire life and she feels neglected and resentful. Families are hard; it's hard to do it "right"... regardless of type.
 
#10 ·
I used to wish that I'd had an esfj mother because mine was istj and I had
felt starved for a 'real' mother.

However, after reading these threads I can see that I was mistaken - just
a different set of problems with different personality types.

Mother/daughter relationships are just so damn complex. It as though our
mothers wanted to narcissisticaly reproduce themselves! A clone of them.
I am a hyprocrite though because, unconsciously I suppose I wanted that
in my daughters.

But now I know better, I try very hard to treat my daughters, respecting
the individuals that they are. I have to get much of my ego out of the
way and be aware of any damage I may be doing.

We often think we should keep up a relationship with our mother, because
after all she's our mother, but I think there's times when we have to cut
them out or at least distance ourselves. I did that with mine and she has
more respect for me now.

I don't know what to say that could be really helpful except the usual advice
of selfing or taking care of one's self and putting your own needs first.
 
#11 ·
I used to wish that I'd had an esfj mother because mine was istj and I had
felt starved for a 'real' mother.
However, after reading these threads I can see that I was mistaken - just
a different set of problems with different personality types.
Mother/daughter relationships are just so damn complex. It as though our
mothers wanted to narcissisticaly reproduce themselves! A clone of them.
I am a hyprocrite though because, unconsciously I suppose I wanted that
in my daughters.
But now I know better, I try very hard to treat my daughters, respecting
the individuals that they are. I have to get much of my ego out of the
way and be aware of any damage I may be doing.
We often think we should keep up a relationship with our mother, because
after all she's our mother, but I think there's times when we have to cut
them out or at least distance ourselves. I did that with mine and she has
more respect for me now.
I don't know what to say that could be really helpful except the usual advice
of selfing or taking care of one's self and putting your own needs first
.
-----I'm sorry for your struggle with your own mother. However, I think it is awesome that you took that experience and used it to inform your own parenting in such a positive way--to respect the individuals that your children are. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting, even wanting things that aren't positive (like wanting to see some of yourself in your children), but there is something wrong in seeking to effectuate negative wants. I'm telling you this in the hope that you can add an opinion to your vault that says you did great.
-----My grandmother is an ISFJ. As I have gotten older, I realize that she didn't understand my flights of fancy or intuitive way of looking at the world--but she nurtured those things, anyway--and she loved me for those things despite the fact that she didn't understand. I will always have a strong feeling of love toward her for giving me that gift--of life and acceptance. There's no greater gift, I think, for an INFP. It's really her I have to thank for my sanity and well-being.
-----Your advice of putting one's needs first is so antithetical to young INFPs, and yet it is a necessary tool of survival in a world that will selfishly and remorselessly stack you with its needs until you collapse. It took me most of my life so far to learn this--and I learned it the hard way.
 
#13 ·
I want to keep this thread going. You can go ahead and start another thread for people with parents in general who are hard to get along with, but I like this thread that is about the INFP kid vs ESFJ mom.

I think it's interesting that many INTPs have ISFJ moms and many INFPs have ESFJ moms, according to the small polls on this forum.

I don't have a lot to say right now, I just wanted to bump the thread. :)
 
#14 ·
I can relate, I think. I have Fi not Fe, whatever placement it has in my personality, and my mom is an Fe dominant.

She tends to have emotional connections to everything I do, and her reactions are scathing. It feels like she is gutting me constantly. Shes vindictive, manipulative, snide, passive-aggressive, narcissistic. Last time I visited her, I took someone with me, and she cornered the person I took with me, hissing these questions: "Crissies mean isn't she?" I sternly told her thats enough. She said "what??" with her faux innocent look. Her voice is enough to crucify me sometimes.

The time before that I was there, It was about 9pm, I'd driven 3.5 hrs, and I was hungry. After I got settled in, I asked her if the subway down the street was open. She replied "YOU'RE GOING TO SUBWAAAYYYY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?"

What. The. Hell. There is just no reason to have such a screwed up emotional response to someones simple action of going to get dinner. When I'm there, she asks where I'm going, when I will be back, etc,. thing is.. I'm an adult, and typically I live like 6 states away from her where she can't monitor me all the time, but as soon as I'm there, I'm apparently a fucking three-year-old again.

The questions drive me insane. She also has this disgusting investment like anything I do reflects on her. "It would make ME proud if you.." -- So I tell her that she needs to realize that we are independent of each other, we are autonomous beings.

She likes to find a button and just press and press until you feel like clawing her face off, or breaking down and crying. She knows how to find them very well too.

She needs to get a reaction or she feels like shes not in control. I'm angry just typing this. No ones ever made me more angry in my whole life.
 
#15 ·
My mom just called to say Happy Easter. We didn't get together this year because I was out of town. I was prepared for a monologue from her but I was pleasantly surprised. She actually asked me about my trip. She was very disappointed that I did not bring back any postcards or brochures for her to look at. She told me about her Easter dinner with all of her friends. Her friends are just like her. Conformist, traditionalist, Catholic, proper.

She said, "everyone was asking about you!" and when she says this, I always hold my breath a little bit because sometimes she tells her friends stuff about me that people just don't need to know about. I'm pregnant with my first kid, so of course this is what everyone was asking about. The surprising thing was that she told them something about me she probably knew they wouldn't think was funny. She actually risked having them look at her weird because of me! My baby is due Sept 12. My birthday is Dec 7 (anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor). So I told my mom that I was aiming for the baby to be born on Sept 11 so that a Pearl Harbor Day mom can have a 9-11 baby. I thought that would be funny. She told her friends my joke and no one laughed. In fact they all clammed up and looked at her confused. hahaha. Then one of them scoffed and said, "does your daughter still have those mannequin heads in her car windows?" And my mom told them that yes, she does still have those displayed in her car windows. And commenced telling them about how much i liked wigs, ever since I was little. Apparently, this made them all understand. (?)

But I must say, I was proud of her for telling her judgmental friends that she has a weird or unconventional daughter.

Sometimes I have to wonder, you know? She scoffs at me in person and looks at me disapprovingly, but then she goes and tells her friends the exact things about me that she scoffs at. And proudly! Why does she do this? She makes it apparent to me that I am being crazy in her eyes, but then she brags about my oddness to her friends. I guess it's better than ridiculing me behind my back. Just thought it was interesting...
 
#16 ·
My mom just called to say Happy Easter. We didn't get together this year because I was out of town. I was prepared for a monologue from her but I was pleasantly surprised. She actually asked me about my trip. She was very disappointed that I did not bring back any postcards or brochures for her to look at. She told me about her Easter dinner with all of her friends. Her friends are just like her. Conformist, traditionalist, Catholic, proper.

She said, "everyone was asking about you!" and when she says this, I always hold my breath a little bit because sometimes she tells her friends stuff about me that people just don't need to know about.. . . And commenced telling them about how much i liked wigs, ever since I was little. Apparently, this made them all understand. (?)

Sometimes I have to wonder, you know? She scoffs at me in person and looks at me disapprovingly, but then she goes and tells her friends the exact things about me that she scoffs at. And proudly! Why does she do this? She makes it apparent to me that I am being crazy in her eyes, but then she brags about my oddness to her friends. I guess it's better than ridiculing me behind my back. Just thought it was interesting...
This sounds so much like my own mom (ISTJ? maybe ISFJ).
- she usually calls up to launch into a monologue (usually detailing the boring lives of people I don't know and implying in some way that I'm not living up to her expectations) It's very hard to get in any kind of self-revelation to her, so I feel like she doesn't really know me. We used to have better conversations when I lived with her, but not anymore. It's all her gossip or surface/trivia like the weather.

- she always tells me that everyone asks about me, and I'm always afraid of whatever it is she tells them or makes up about me because she doesn't know me and is filling it in with what she wants me to be. And she makes explainations for 'wierd' things about me that somehow appease traditional people but which leave me scratching my head.

- I was shocked when she told me she tells everyone I'm a wood-nymph (many of the people she knows wouldn't even know what that was) because so often she's making it clear she disapproves of my unusual dress and refusal to wear shoes and all that other 'nonsense'.


I'm not sure I quite understand Fe yet, but here's something that I wonder if Fe-users would do, because it seems in theory like unhealthy ones would - you'll have to let me know if it sounds right/makes sense:
(and my mom could be using Te and teriary Fi...I'm still not sure on this)
I know my mom cares about me, but it seems like her natural inclination is to only be empathetic and understanding and helpfull when you are submitting to her plans for you and her ideas about how you should feel. She doesn't instinctually try to tune-in to what another person as an individual feels and needs, but instead expects everyone to follow some set of expected reactions and beliefes that she has in her head as 'how people are' or 'the way things are' and if your feelings don't conform then she can't empathize, can't accept, can't comprehend. She thinks she is empathizing with people when she actually is empathizing with how she thinks they should feel, rather than how they actually do feel.

Here's an example from my highschool days: to my mom, being different means you are asking for attention (in a rebellious way). Now, she cares about me and worries that I feel a need for attention and that's why I'm 'acting out' in this way by being different. She wants me to feel accepted/appreciated so I don't need to be anti-social to get attention and really wants to help me get past this. That's great, that's nice, her care is sincere..... BUT she's trying to adress a problem that isn't there. I don't dress wierd or say I like 'geeky' things because I need attention. I don't want much attention, actually I'd like less of it from most people aside from my few friends. But when I tell her this she just gets upset and never believes me. She can't seem to feel sympathetic about the plights of simply being different, she can only be sympathetic with the need to draw attention to oneself. So her caring is directed toward a feeling I'm not having, and she has trouble caring about the real feelings I have. I'm not down because no one is noticing me, I'm down because people can't just leave me alone and have to actively pick on me for my differences.

Now my mom does know and understand that people are individuals and need to be treated that way, and she really tries to do this with her students at school. She's smart, she's knowlegable, she's willing to work outside her instincts, and she's GREAT in comparrison to a lot of moms out there, but in moments when she's not paying attention and trying, her natural inclination is to disregard the individuality of people and not be empathetic if they are not conforming to her expectations. She can be really caring/helpfull when she's on the same page as you, but she has a hard time identifying with other perspectives. I'm really appreciative that she has gotten fairly good at respecting other perspectives, but I can see how her tendancies could be really hard for me to deal with if she wasn't as....self-aware/learned/mature in this area.
 
#17 ·
Fuck, been there. Parent's divorced when I was four. Mom naturally got custody. Fight between the two over financial bullshit goes onto this day (I'm 21, little brother is 19). I can't even spend a weekend at her place anymore without getting into a fight and storming out, thank god for having my own car. It's been hard to tell her type but as my understanding of MBTI has grown I can safely place her in ESFJ.

You know. The type of mom that is completely entitled, financially driven, and senseless to other people. Her most repeated quote is "Who cares what happens, you're never going to see them again anyway. Fuck them."
 
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#19 ·
I don't know what type my mom is. but she needs to be needed to feel good about herself. so often she'll insist on talking about my problems, or she'll try to rescue me from myself everytime I come home. Like she'll insist I'll call up the "friends" I dislike as I'm spending too much time alone. or when I was a teenager and had bad skin she would make my bad skin her personal project :p

Hence I have huge issues with people trying to help me. I find it harder and harder visiting my hometown every year, as I'm stronger when I'm away from her.

but she is really smart and kind of a rolemodel in many ways :). so it's not all bad
 
#21 ·
Does anyone get the issue that their mother or irritating Fe-user is prone to hyperbole? My mother's care for on the one hand appeasing the people around her and on the other hand maintaining a good image (A reaction I think to the subclass way she was treated as a child for having an unmarried mother) manifests in seeming extremely two faced, largely as a result of this. Any story in retelling grows and acquires extra bits. Any attempts to tell her she is not remembering it right result in a telling of later for embarassing her. Mum says she cares, but when it comes to me and my brother wanting to do something how it comes across to other people always comes first... she made me stay at home alone while she and my dad went out last new years for example even though I could have visited a family friend's or the local village hall. Of course, once she realises actually people disagree with her parenting in that instance she changes in line with expectations and tries to make it up, to no avail.

I think the crux of my irritation with her is the way that the expectations of other people matter so much to her, and her lack of a concept of how people could function differently to her except as a defect. For example, my Ti and Te dom brother and father are treated as emotionally defunct, with my brother referred to occasionally as Spock and my Dad repeatedly bullied for having no feelings. Whilst being T doms they don't really care, it makes me really angry. Also, as IxxPs my brother and I are constantly attacked for being lazy and absentminded, and for pushing people away and wanting to be alone a lot of the time at home. It's not that she doesn't understand, it's that she is so deeply committed to the wrong understanding. She can only reason about why people would do things if they were her. I'd love to show her the MBTI, but I have a feeling it would be dismissed as excusing people like me who have something wrong with them, people that need to be more sociable, more outgoing and more normal.

I can't wait to move out. Hopefully, she will learn to deal with my Dad, and if I can leave on the right foot then she will reconsider me too. I hate the fact that I am failing to connect with her, and I want a family by all means but at the moment it is proving trying in the extreme... I know that every good patch is a delay to the next time she does something that really annoys me, or we have an argument about something that does not need to be argued about.
 
#24 ·
Does anyone get the issue that their mother or irritating Fe-user is prone to hyperbole? My mother's care for on the one hand appeasing the people around her and on the other hand maintaining a good image (A reaction I think to the subclass way she was treated as a child for having an unmarried mother) manifests in seeming extremely two faced, largely as a result of this. Any story in retelling grows and acquires extra bits. Any attempts to tell her she is not remembering it right result in a telling of later for embarassing her. Mum says she cares, but when it comes to me and my brother wanting to do something how it comes across to other people always comes first... she made me stay at home alone while she and my dad went out last new years for example even though I could have visited a family friend's or the local village hall. Of course, once she realises actually people disagree with her parenting in that instance she changes in line with expectations and tries to make it up, to no avail.
That is quite similar to how the bridal shower she threw for me went. She has been invited to bridal showers of some of her friends' daughters but not been invited to their weddings. So she believed that this is how you do it. When she threw me a shower, she never asked who I wanted her to invite. Not once. She made the invitations, sent them out, did everything herself. When it came time to attend, it was at her friend Betty's house, who I barely knew. All the ladies there were people I had either never met or only met once or twice in passing. I got all these gifts from these women who didn't know me at all, and vice versa! It was SOO very awkward for me. One of the older ladies came up to me after the shower and asked the date, time and place of my wedding and said she hoped she could make it. ?? I didn't know her and I hadn't invited her! I told my mom this afterward and told her I hoped she could tell that lady tactfully that she is not invited to my wedding (I didn't have the space for more people!). My mom was very frustrated with the whole thing because she kept saying that so-and-so had a shower and she wasn't invited to that bride's wedding, so it should have been ok for her to give me this shower and invite her friends. It should have been understood that the shower guests were not also wedding guests. But apparently, not everyone thinks like this. I know I wouldn't have thought like that if I had been a shower guest.

I think she is still under the impression that the shower was a great success, but in my mind it was extremely awkward and I never want to do anything like that again.
 
#22 ·
You know what? I've placed some things together. My ESFJ mother grew up in an awful family. Terrible background. She was verbally abused, and I suspect perhaps more than just verbally at times. She has told me she swore to never use guilt manipulation because her mother used it so much against her. My mother views herself as basically talent-less. She is very modest and doesn't give herself much credit at all. She turns her anger towards herself and blames herself for anything that happens - even if it is my fault or somebody else's fault. Yet the way she got out of her family was she somehow knew which people to hang out with. She searched for people who had something she didn't, and said they really influenced. She met my dad and married into a very stable family. So perhaps that is why she is the way she is now.

I wonder just how much of what people are saying is about the personality type ESFJ, or about a mother whose experiences causes her to act in a certain way, and perhaps cause trouble in relationships. Something to think about, I suppose. We shouldn't type people based on their faults, I think, or their weak points. Or even tendencies in behavior. It's all about how people think, really.

@adverseaffects -
I see your point, and yes, people do love to say "I don't get along with this guy. He must be a sensor, since they are so hard to get along with." Pin the tail on the sensor.... though the reason I think it wasn't ExFJ is cause there was a poll on the forum recently, what type is your mother, and the majority were xsfjs, and I think that sprung a discussion of that dynamic.
But I wonder how many of those actually are XSFJs. What if people are typing by fitting their parents into stereotypes? Or perhaps they see the bad tendencies of the XSFJ and say, "Yeah, my parent has to be one of those." And some of those people might say, "Well, because there's so much of a gap between my and my parent, they're probably a Sensor." Or something to that effect. It is something to think about. I'm not saying that all the people who posted on this thread are wrong. There just seems to be a startling connection to the negative persona of the ESFJ and how most peoples' parents seem to be ESFJs. Or XSFJs...

The main problem between ESFJs and INFPs seems to be within communication and simply having many misunderstandings. My mom is brilliant at communicating me. She is quick to ask clarifying questions. Even, she jokes, if the clarifying question seems like a silly one. This really helps within our relationship, I think. She's so willing to go the extra mile to understand me, and everything I say. Sometimes, due to the fact that my mother is an SJ and I'm an NP, there's going to be times where some communication is going to be lost. She will say something or I will say something that simply doesn't reach the other person in the intended way. And when that happens there's got to be patience on either side and a willingness to slow down and break things down on both sides. Perhaps that's part of the secret.

It's very easy to get into the mindset of, "She doesn't understand me because she's an ESFJ and I'm an XNFP." Or whatever. But then you also have to remember that your ESFJ mother could just as easily turn the tables and think, "She/he doesn't understand me because I'm an ESFJ and she/he's a ____." And whenever we think that, there's a sense of superiority, almost. "She/he doesn't understand me, therefore I am special and deep and have feelings nobody will ever understand. Unless they're like me." I'm not saying all of us do that all the time, but I think there is a tendency there to do that.
 
#23 ·
You know what? I've placed some things together. My ESFJ mother grew up in an awful family. Terrible background. She was verbally abused, and I suspect perhaps more than just verbally at times. She has told me she swore to never use guilt manipulation because her mother used it so much against her. My mother views herself as basically talent-less. She is very modest and doesn't give herself much credit at all. She turns her anger towards herself and blames herself for anything that happens - even if it is my fault or somebody else's fault. Yet the way she got out of her family was she somehow knew which people to hang out with. She searched for people who had something she didn't, and said they really influenced. She met my dad and married into a very stable family. So perhaps that is why she is the way she is now.

........

It's very easy to get into the mindset of, "She doesn't understand me because she's an ESFJ and I'm an XNFP." Or whatever. But then you also have to remember that your ESFJ mother could just as easily turn the tables and think, "She/he doesn't understand me because I'm an ESFJ and she/he's a ____." And whenever we think that, there's a sense of superiority, almost. "She/he doesn't understand me, therefore I am special and deep and have feelings nobody will ever understand. Unless they're like me." I'm not saying all of us do that all the time, but I think there is a tendency there to do that.
To address your first observation - yes yes! My mom was abused as a child. Every time she talks about her own relationship with her mother, it makes me cringe and hate my grandma even more. She has only horror stories to tell about the way her mom treated her. I am so proud of my mom for getting out of that situation (she moved as far away as she could and stayed there). I am also extremely proud of how she has not repeated some of the things her mother did to her onto me. Her mom was physically abusive and I've never been hit. Her mom told her she was evil and forced her to leave home and join a convent at 16 years old. My mom respects me a lot more than that to force me against my will in that way. Her mom was increidbly harsh with the discipline, making my mom sleep in a 100 year old, unfinished, musty, dirt floor, infested basement for a summer because she came home late once from being out on a date. My mom would never ever do that to me. So I am extremely proud of the way she has seen the right and wrong ways to raising a child and consciously rebelled against the wrong ways. I am grateful beyond anything.

But I think it's ok to comment on the disconnect between an INFP kid and a ESFJ parent. It doesn't mean that we are saying "she's an ESFJ and therefore she is wrong and bad" or anything like that. We are just pointing out the ways in which we don't see eye to eye and linking it to the MBTI. There are doubtless other reasons why we may not get along with our parents and definitely the disconnect goes both ways. My mom is well aware of our awkward and rocky relationship. I've gotten a little bit out of her friends who have told me that my mom knows we don't have the best relationship. She is confused by me and I am confused by her. But we both love each other and we aren't giving up. I'm not pushing her out of my life or saying she is inferior to me at all. I would never do or think that. All I'm saying is we have relationship problems and if other people can relate, then it's interesting to talk about.

oh and to add to this, my best female friend who I've known forever is an ESFJ. I definitely do not hate ESFJs. But it is interesting to point out the ways in which we do not connect.
 
#31 ·
@ethylester - Hmm... That would be a problem. ^^ I'm not entirely sure if what you describe is a purely ESFJ thing - my mom doesn't do that, really. While she does try to approach things from personal experience ("I remember I liked this when I was your age"), she also takes my interests and my personality into account ("but you have always been drawn to ____ so I think you'll enjoy ____ more"). I think how ESFJs choose to apply Si changes from person to person.

One way to get past that problem would be for you to be the one reaching out to her and finding common ground; things you both like to do and things you both have interests in. Sounds silly and elementary, and you probably already know that, but it's something to keep in mind. Perhaps you could communicate to her your interests ("Recently I've been into ___ because ____"). Eh, I dunno. It is hard when communicating is difficult for you, though. D;
 
#36 ·
Also - anyone's mother say that you don't get on because you're too alike? This last one makes me particularly annoyed because it betrays a complete lack of understanding on her part. She doesn't understand me, she doesn't understand why we don't get along and she doesn't undersand herself
 
#37 ·
Oooh that would make me bristle too. No, my mom has rarely said anything like that. And when she did, it was actually a compliment because she was saying I had something good that he also had. Like when she said we were a lot alike because we enjoy helping other people. That's true. We both do enjoy that.

I'm curious now, what characteristics that you have does your mom think are just like her?

What my mom does more often is compare me to my father in a disapproving tone. Looking down her nose and remarking, "you are just like your father!" As if my father is a slimy beast from the sewer. It would bother me that she saw something bad in me and rationalized it by saying I got it from dad, but it secretly floated my boat when she compared me to him because he's always been an inspiration to me.
 
#40 ·
@Geoffrey -- your posts are always epic :)

I don't mind either the title - or the posts. I've had friendships with enough INFPs to realize that underneath the emotional venting - at the core is almost always the desire to love, or be loved, to be accepted and even to accept --- but on their own terms - which is of course fine. People deserve to be loved and accepted for who they are and allowed to be who they are without having values and ways of living imposed on them :)

I have no issues with the thread, or the titles, or even the content. It's a place for support :) We all need a comforting hand on our shoulder sometimes, a listening ear and a gentle voice.
 
#42 ·
-----I understand being protective of loved ones, of course. I did not think you were saying something negative about us, but I thought you might have thought we were saying something negative about ESFJs in general.
-----It's sometimes the case with iNtuitive-to-iNtuitive communication that we read something between the lines that isn't necessarily intended. iNtiutive communication usually proceeds from A to D, which practically begs the person responding to fill in the unstated assumptions (A to B, B to C, an C to D). It tends to leave quite a bit of room for interpretation. And for whatever reason, the more each party tries to explain their position, the more the other person's Ne or Ni responds to/tries to figure out the unstated connections.
-----I suppose one of my core assumptions, for better or worse, is that when people take the time to understand each other and each other's perspectives, they get along harmoniously (regardless of the fact that each person has their own opinions and ideas). I've come to the realization (or perhaps just personal conclusion) that that isn't universally true. However, from my experience here and IRL, it does seem to hold true for NF-NF communications/relations, and to a large degree for NF-NT communications/relations. There is something about that N-S line, though, that either altogether invalidates my assumption or disallows an adequate understanding of the other person's perspective.
-----We (INFPs) do occasionally need reminding that we should not rely on nasty stereotypes (so I truly thank you for pointing that out if you think it is going on), since our tertiary function, Si, is heavily influenced by prior experiences--and thus can lead us to make faulty/hasty generalizations (to conclude based on a specific experience that something must be generally true). Si involves distrusting new information that doesn’t match (already experienced information); assuming an understanding of a situation because it resembles a prior one; focusing on facts and stored data; giving lots of specific, sequential details about something; and rating and making comparisons. When INFPs rely on Si without using it in conjunction with Fi or Ne, we can end up relying on stereotypes. From my experience (LOL, yes I see the humor here), I tend to make poor use of Si when a particular experience is traumatic or just very negative (relying on quality rather than quantity), but I also make poor use of it when my experience with a particular person or thing is especially negative (relying on quantity of negative experiences--but still not on quantity of people/things). But Si can only be trusted when one has a large "sample size"/data pool (of the same kind of person/thing) that is observed over time--otherwise the conclusions drawn will be faulty. I have a feeling this Si-reliance occurs because we detach emotionally (either right then or after the fact) from the negative situation, and so in dealing with that moment rely totally on Si. That may also be why we forget our values (Fi and Ne are switched off).
-----Thank you for the rest of your response as well (the part I didn't quote).
 
#41 ·
@Geoffrey - I know INFPs don't force their feelings upon others or become judgmental. That really depends on the individual rather than type. I didn't mean to say that. O_O Just pointing out a nasty stereotype that we should all be careful about. ^^ And I suppose I got just a tiny bit protective over my mother when I saw this thread? XD Lol. Well, tis' my nature. I know you all are simply sharing experiences here. :)

-----It just seems that no matter how much we qualify our language--and despite the fact that there is no bad intent--that other people seem to come away from what say as if we're being judgmental. Previously, I mentioned to adverseaffects that we maybe need to add in some fine legal print into our signatures to avoid misunderstandings. But at some point, it's not about what INFPs say, it's about what others bring with them to what we say. Again, I am not talking about or judging you or calling you out--I'm just explaining myself/the INFP perspective using an informing interaction style.
I certainly hope I didn't do that. O_____O That was not my intention. But I shall keep this in mind. I don't think you guys are being judgmental. ^^

No, if a relationship were to get that healthy, I'd probably feel the need to do something. Whether or not I'd distance myself, I don't know. But either way, I'm sure it would be painful, so I'm sure that must be painful for you. :(

I am definitely proud of my mother. She's really come such a long way. She's crawled out of the hole she was put in. She's now a Registered Nurse who helps people every day. ^^ She has depression, though, and she is on medication. During the times when the depression was un-medicated and her moods were a bit out of balance, she would always come back and apologize for any strange behavior, even though it clearly wasn't her fault. She has a strained relationship with her mother and brother and nearly everyone on her side of the family, but she keeps in contact with them and has learned how to make the relationship healthier where once it was poisonous. No, she is not an ISFJ. My mother needs and thrives on social interaction. :) And she definitely leads with Fe.
 
#44 ·
Petty Pet Peeve about mom - on Facebook, she will often comment on my posts. If I, or any of my friends, then reply with anything that is contrary or challenging to what she said, then she deletes her original comment. Why does she do this? Why can't she just hear what was said and respond to it fairly? Why does she have to delete her comment, thus making the response appear random?
 
#46 ·
Sorry to be so late to the discussion, but I feel as a INFP child of an ESFJ mother I had to jump in. I don't think it's a coincidence that so many of us have issues with this type. I think some types are just more compatible than others. And when you are dissecting a parent/child relationship, those dysfunctions are exaggerated. It's not like you can just stop having a relationship with them. Especially your own mother. I love her in a weird way, but also feel like she really doesn't know me and never will and that makes me incredibly sad. But as I grow older, I have learned to accept the strained relationship that we have and just let it be. In true INFP fashion I have tried to distance myself from the source of the discomfort. It's just too much for me. She will never ever see me for who I really am. On a good day I can see it as her loss.....On a bad day it breaks my heart.....
 
#47 ·
I used to have problems with my mom. I would see her as intentionally guilt tripping/hurtful (I still sometimes do, but it's rare now). I remember at one point I was mulling over this and realized that it was her way of loving me (after all, how could it not, I know she loves me). Since I made that realization, I changed a bit with how I interact with her and when the occasional problem arises I don't immediately assume she's trying to hurt/offend me.

Now that I understand the cognitive functions, I know that the moment of realization was recognizing Fe/the opposing personality. Since Fe is foreign to me and Fe's decisions don't always make sense to me, I communicate with her primarily with my Ne/Si to her Si/Ne, I do better understand her and I think she better understands me and there haven't been misunderstandings that haven't been able to be clarified.
 
#48 ·
I don't have an ESFJ mother, but my supervisor is, and let me tell you that I have to cultivate a lot of patience to get along with her because she gives me a lot of stress. I think that ESFJ is the personality type that is most likely to use the "F" function to manipulate and control others. Everyday I have to deal with this behavior and is not easy. Of course I try to work with her in harmony but I really want to explode inside. I think that other types such as the ESTJs are more serious and respectful of your space and are less likely to manipulate other peoples emotions to get what they want. The good thing about them is that they are very helpful and like to keep people pleased. They do like to keep a peaceful environment. I can ask her anything and she helps me without being rude or treating me like I am stupid. You can trust them to get the job done.

As parents I imagine them always making sure that their children have everything they need. They can be nurturing and very caring parents but is no surprise how controlling they can be which can drive INFPs crazy.

Is safe to talk about ESFJs here since they are too busy socializing in the real world. The only pages they usually visit are Facebook to find out about the latest news and gossip from their friends and family so they have something to talk about , or discount websites such as Groupon to get coupons for restaurants etc.
 
#50 ·
I just remembered this old thread existed and I wanted to vent about my ESFJ mom. I hope it's cool that I resurrected this. We need to keep this thing going. Therapy.

I know a lot of you don't use facebook. I wish I didn't use it so much. It just aggravates me. Mainly, it's my mom. She comments on EVERY post i make. She even comments on posts my friends make on my wall. Or posts I put on my friends' walls. And she comments on my friends' own posts. She "likes" every status I make or any comment I make. It's like she's my annoying shadow. She never says anything worth commenting back on either. It's always very mundane. Like she is just saying something to make her presence known. I really want to block her from seeing my posts but that would make me feel too guilty. She is a really lonely person and I am her only family. If I stopped letting her on my fb, I feel like I'd be taking away some little bit of pleasure she has in life.

She is so nosy and inappropriate sometimes. When I was in the hospital, she went on to my EX boyfriend's page and posted that he needed to call me. What the hell. And once she even posted on something he wrote telling him that he was the most creative person she knew. Which is ridiculous because she doesn't even know him nowadays. The last time she saw him was like 10 years ago. And how do you think that makes my husband feel that she's telling my ex boyfriend how great he was?

My friend just posted something on my wall about how her little kid likes my music and my mom "liked" it. The thing is, my mom hasn't even HEARD my music in the last decade! She doesn't even know I have a new tape out. Well, why don't I tell her, you ask? BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T ASK. She couldn't care less about my music. And then she's on a public forum "liking" shit regarding my music. It makes me mad. She just wants to look like she's being supportive but she never has been. Not with music.

I have it set so no one can see my picture albums unless they are my friend. I have told her this many times yet she keeps "sharing" the album I posted of pictures of my son. then she gets all upset because her friends aren't commenting. I told her why and she acted like I didn't know what I was talking about. So I told her to ask her friends if they could see the album. That means she goes on fb and says "Can anyone see this album? Ethylester wants to know!" Ugh. No, I did not want to know. I told you they couldn't see it. You didn't believe me. I don't care if your friends can't see it. Post your own pictures of your grandson. Geez.

One of my friends decided to unfriend her because she would always dole out advice when she wasn't asking for any. And if she posted a question like, "does anyone know about such and such" my mom would reply "google it". Like my friend has never thought of googling something before. Not helpful. Just annoying.

I was recently having a conversation with another friend about our grandpas. My mom butted into the conversation and wanted to talk about my grandpa too. But this is my dad's dad. And they're divorced. I just wish she would stay out of conversations regarding my dad's family. She is still friends with them on fb and she comments on everything they post too. And she calls everyone "my dear". It's "thank you my dear. Stay safe my dear. Oh what a dear. Happy birthday my dear" etc.

And her email forwards! don't get me started with the email forwards. I think I vented about this once before. I get at least one a day from her. And they are so dumb! I have told her numerous times I don't want to get them but she doesn't listen. And it also pisses me off that when I email her something privately, half the time she forwards it to all her cousins. As if to say "my daughter and I are emailing each other! look!" For example, I found this old photo of her so I scanned it and emailed it to her. She was wearing a sweater that I still have. She forwarded the pic to all her cousins. Then she forwarded the reply I sent her saying I still had the sweater. Then she forwarded her reply to me about the sweater telling me where she got it. And so on. This is a list of like 15 people, all being forced to read this very short and boring conversation between my mom and I about a sweater. Also in this exchange, she told me to keep in touch with all her cousins because if I was good to them, they'd be good to me. um ok. What could they be thinking about her? She's crazy? Yeah, she is.

oh man, I want to keep typing but I'll stop because this is getting really long. I just wanted to vent. Thanks.,
 
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