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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
V1

What is this:
I will try to rewrite function stacks and I will provide short function definitions, that I think could make more sense.

Why I am writing this:
I think, that there are mistakes in stack and function understanding.

Are you Ready?


if yes, then let's GO!!!

We all know how types are constructed and that's fine. Just that I won't really change anything in that. What I want to edit is those names dominant, auxiliary, tertiary, inferior and shadow.

So many times it's written everywhere, that dominant is the strongest function out of all and inferior is the weakest out of all (excluding shadow). That is right to some degree, but there is a misconception of what it means. So here are my fixes:
First of all, we need to understand, that "strength" is actually not so good measure. It could be understood iNtuitively, but it's not so good for newbies. Instead somewhat forgotten word "preference" is much better fit for describing purposes. Yet you actually don't make a decision of what is preferred. Your preferences are your type. As it is believed, it is hardwired in our heads after we are born.

So, now start with those names of "preferences":

Non-shadow functions - those are the functions, that are you. This is your usual mode and it's your usual working. It's the half with the least resistance. Please don't get me wrong, it doesn't always mean, that you will always start out with using 1st, then 2nd function and so on. No, this means, that you will use one of these four functions first, but when it's possible and appropriate, you will use them in that order (actually not really like that, because sometimes you will have to use your shadow function first, but that's really rare and you will know that it's not very much like you or not your completely natural you).

Dominant - pretty much is the preference, that you don't really know, you use (consciously), but you use it as your first tool to deal with the world. It is your primary thing, to perceive or judge everything.

Auxiliary - very similar function to dominant function. This is your second function. Is at pretty much unconscious level, but it's usage is preferred.

Dominant and auxiliary - this is your most preffered duo to judge and perceive the world. Usually unconscious, but really well known and understood. Too bad due to it's unconsciousness is hard to "see".

Tertiary - this is your third mode of cognition. Now is where things are getting more conscious. It's you, just that it's somewhat conscious. Still is pretty strong you.

Inferior - this is your fourth mode of cognition. It's just a bit more conscious mode than tertiary mode, but has a chuck of unconsciousness. This is the last function, that is decently strong in you.

Tertiary and inferior - the second duo, which is pretty much you, just with more resistance than the first duo. Also this is used, but usually can be preferred after the first duo. Example: you have been so taken up into reading (first duo is with N function), that you forgot to go to toilet and now your bladder is almost exploding (second duo is with S function). Anyway, it doesn't mean, that every time it happens in this order. Actually not too often.

Shadow functions - those are your functions, that is "still you, but ermm... not really". You can use those functions and you do that. These functions are still you, but with more of resistance and doesn't feel natural to you (sometimes that could feel the same if function in 2nd duo did something, that function in 1st duo doesn't approve).

The third duo - this is the first half of your shadow functions. This is "still you, but not really you". Often thought as not you and requires "super consciousness". Super consciousness is just being very concentrated on something, therefore your information here is very conscious. This is still you, but not your natural mode. Can be very draining and be perceived as negativity. Resistance there is big and also it's not your proffered mode (that's why it requires super consciousness).

The fourth duo - this is your second half of your shadow functions. This is "still you, but really not so much". It's really difficult for person to actually use this last duo and it is definitely the least preferred operating mode. Feels very unnatural and is pretty much unconscious. Often lacks ability to become conscious and is almost always not used. Still you, but resistance of it's usage makes it not being perceived as you.

Usage frequency of functions is often linear. With dominant being the most often used and 8th function almost never touched. We as humans just often choose paths of the least resistance in our lifes (that's some philosophical shit). For this reason we often live using non-shadow functions and due to shadow being opposing force, it's pretty much left unused for our own good (we would be drained with it's resistance).

If we literally use theory, that function usage is all about energy, then we can look at them this way:
dominant - energizing
auxiliary - less energizing
2nd duo - rarely energizing
3rd duo - energy sucker
4th duo - extreme energy sucker

We also must not forget, that energy stuff greatly depends on general introversion and extraversion of person, so the list above shouldn't be taken very literally.

So now, that I have described my thoughts about possible misconceptions and understanding of function "strength", I will end this big write-up with shortly describing concrete cognitive functions individually, to clear up a little bit more misconceptions.

So here they are:

Judging:

Judging - it is processing of observed information, that sometimes (frequency depends on outgoingness and situation, also on some other factors too) can become shared with external world. Those processes are rational and require thinking.

Fi - internal ethical map is being made using internal ethical information. Often due to overthinking it results in being indecisive and preferring depth.

Fe - internal ethical map is being made using external ethical information. Often due to relying on perceived information it starts to prefer quantity over depth and may become very decisive.

Both of them can look exactly the same, due to influence of other functions. Also both judge the world in ethical dimension. Words like "quantity>depth", "depth>quantity", "decisiveness" are not Fi or Fe specific. So don't make false assumptions. To ad something more, F function strength doesn't indicate how much feelings you have. Ethical judgment functions are responsible of how X should be ethically judged.

Ti - internal logical framework is being made from information internally understood as being logical.

Te - internal logical framework is being made from the information externally being understood as being logical.

Both don't deal with purely ethical questions. Both can be greatly affected by the rest of the functions. Same fashion of i function possible be more "depth>quantity" and e "quantity>depth". It's not a rule and never should be taken as that. Most of the stuff I could say about T functions is already said in F section, you just have to replace ethical stuff with logic. Such an easy translation is only possible due to T and F being judging functions.

Perceiving:

Perceiving - these functions aren't processing anything. They are only absorbing information. P functions are irrational processes and don't do any thinking themselves (yet judging functions do).

Si - absorbs internal sensory information.

Se - absorbs external sensory information.

Sensory information is only what can be observed using our senses. Something like facts can be also S stuff to observe. Yet they are often mixed up with some J function. Se for example intakes external sensory information. For example sees sign. It's that simple. The higher it is in our stack, the more we likely to use it more. Si is also that simple as Se is, just direction is different. It observes internal sensory information. This is logical conclusion, that I unfortunately can't really say, what it means. Mostly due to lots of conflicting stuff on net. The closest I can come to is that it observes already familiar objects (that aren't external to person now), or some other individual or personal sensorities.

Ni - absorbs internal iNtuitive information

Ne - absorbs external iNtuitive information

iNtuitive information is what is being felt, but not sensed (don't mess this up with F functions. F judges, N absorbs). So it's pretty is what just doesn't fit S and F and T. Literally what is being intaken, but is not sensing or judgment. We just feel it.

Ne observes that in external environment, as simple as that (also potentially too abstract). While Ni pretty much observes internal iNtuitive information. Same as with Si, it's hard to describe, but working principle is pretty much the same, just change word "sensorities" with "iNtuition" and it should work fine.

This is where conception of having alone time and recharging fits the best imo. P introverts kinda need to recharge, else they get drained. P extroverts need external stimuli to keep their energy high. Pi people may observe something longer, but quantity will deplete. Opposite may happen for Pe people. Yet it's not a rule, therefore it won't always be like that. Anyway I think, that this is where it is more likely to be, than in judging functions.

Oh shit! Sorry, that function part wasn't really short, but I just had so much to tell, that I just couldn't stop. My brakes failed lol. Well at it is shorter than the stack and position part.

Questions, corrections, opinions and everything else is welcome! Let's chat!
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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10,905 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Mate.
Back to the drawing board.

I'm on my phone and can't be bothered dissecting all this, but there's so much shit here it's ridiculous.

Explore this Tumblr page mate:
Type Theory
I know that site. I read it now, but what is shit here? You will have to get to PC and explain it with details. I wouldn't have written this thing without any reasoning behind it, so I'm ready for debate too.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #5
Good, good...

Though I have never been sure about this "shadow"-idea. Although I suppose opposing forces in the psyche have to be explained somehow.
I was pretty unsure about it too, until now (not 100% now either). It the part of you, but not actually being you. It can work as you in super logical mode, but that's not exactly you. So yeah it's you, but not really. It just cannot be simply said, that it's not you due to everyone having it and if we have it, it's still part of us, while not actually being our natural us.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #6
V1.1

What's new in V1.1:
Fundamental changes to description of judging functions.
Small additions to general P and J stuff

Changes:
So I messed up in judging functions part. There's how everything should be.

Judging - the ability to come to sensible conclusions.

Fi - ethical judgments are directed internally

Fe - ethical judgments are directed outwardly

Ti - logical judgments are directed internally

Te - logical judgments are directed outwardly

All judgment functions use observed information of P functions.

Fi and Ti users need recharging time to operate optimally. Recharging is being done by having alone time or "introverted time". This helps them to sort their intaken (P) information into judgments.

Fe and Te users need recharging time to operate optimally. Recharging is being done by doing something involving the need for external judgments. This is their natural way processing intaken (P) information.

You can view P as intake and J as exhaust. Pretty much like a car. Car needs to intake air (it will be N) and fuel (it will be S). Processes it and exhausts nitrogen (will be F here), carbon dioxide (will be T here) and some other stuff (mixture of F and T, which is very hard to separate individually). Your natural duo is what car needs and emits the most, but it can't work properly without the rest of the stuff, so balance is must. If balance is lost, engine fails, in typology terms you become unhealthy type. Engine can break or can be DOA (dead on arrival), your cognition can have some mental stuff going on, like disorders illnesses and etc. Pe and Pi in car could be air intake from outside (Pe) and viper fluid (Pi, due to it being mostly enclosed and not as externally reliant as air intake). Je and Ji in car could be exhaust gases (Je) and carbon build-up (Ji). I think, that car analogy is pretty cool :kitteh:.
 

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I think, that there are mistakes in stack and function understanding.

Are you Ready?


View my repsonse (Post #9) to Turi in this thread:

The 'functions' (re: dom/aux/tet/in) seem to mimic the gear(s) of motorcycle transmissions; as you should be familiar with:


 
I suppose utilizing "strenth," is simply word-gymnastics that does not need to be present;

Each sensing/intuitive - feeling/thinking - perciving/judging - has their own 'transmission' inside a transmission.

___________



'Preferences', as I understand it, regarding 'cognitive-functions' (denotes multiple "gears").

If you are familiar with motorcycle gear-shifting - consider the 'neutral' gear, that is only a (half)-point between the lowest - and 2nd up gear.



In "neutral," (re: between various 'gear' shifts') (X)-cognitive functions [fluctate at different 'speeds']. (Developed / undeveloped). Which is meta-gear shifting.

::

(X)-cognitive function in the dominant - will be in the 'lowest' 1st gear of the largest transmision; and in gear [D] of the smallest transmission; if your most preferred-function/speed is (Ni), it must be in the correct (dominant-gear) for proper functionality - cognitive-functions are subconscious reflexes (or reactions to sensory external-stimuli), so where said cognitive function is shifted in non-meta 'gear slots' is consciously irrelevant, as it is will always automatically (be in 1st-gear), if preferred. Without such, the motor will suffer injury and the engine will be killed at stop lights.


Although, while (X)-function is in the dominant position; it will be the (strongest) function in so far as vehicle is gaining, or as shifted it's [momentum] within this state - since (X)-function (Ni)-dom is always in (N) -- 'intuitive'-gear, "Intuition," will always be strongest - regardless of meta 'gear type' - and dominant 1st-gear in the main slot. If I shift up into (sensing)-gear, the momentum (transmission) will change - gaining most it's momentum via the sensing function - 'this will be the strongest gear' regardless of gear locality.

At most, a dominant / aux; intuitive user will alternative functions (and can accerlate / de-ccerlate speeds in (X)- meta gear slot), that is between (Ne - Ni); but intuition in the dominant degree, never "alternates between major gears". The only time the functions gain speed or loose speed within it's proper gear-slot.
 

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View my repsonse (Post #9) to Turi in this thread:

The 'functions' (re: dom/aux/tet/in) seem to mimic the gear(s) of motorcycle transmissions; as you should be familiar with:


 


I like your gears approach.

Translating this analogy to a car (as I drive this) I'll not that there is more control over using the fist gear. Parking is much easiet in gear one. I can ne more precise wIth the movements. This would be very uncontrolled in higher gear with the momentum and speed require not to stall.

Makes sense as the dominant function has some concious control, where the inferior tends to be unpredictable/unconcious.
 

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MOTM February 2014
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Tertiary and inferior - the second duo, which is pretty much you, just with more resistance than the first duo. Also this is used, but usually can be preferred after the first duo. Example: you have been so taken up into reading (first duo is with N function), that you forgot to go to toilet and now your bladder is almost exploding (second duo is with S function). Anyway, it doesn't mean, that every time it happens in this order. Actually not too often.
My biggest problem is that this being such a basic example for you means to me that you don't have an understanding of what N and S are, which means I'm not sure how much to lend credit to the rest of your ideas.

To break it down:
Reading in itself isn't based on a function. Getting caught up in something is certainly not caused by a function. Body signals are arguably not based on a function, either, depending on who you ask (it isn't, IMO, but people think it's Si sometimes). You're trying to break down a complicated task into such a stereotypical dichotomy that it doesn't work, making the foundation shaky.

About the only thing I can agree with you on is that, definitely, N/S only absorbs information and too many people assume they Judge.
 

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The spirit of the spirits
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Discussion Starter #14
My biggest problem is that this being such a basic example for you means to me that you don't have an understanding of what N and S are, which means I'm not sure how much to lend credit to the rest of your ideas.

To break it down:
Reading in itself isn't based on a function. Getting caught up in something is certainly not caused by a function. Body signals are arguably not based on a function, either, depending on who you ask (it isn't, IMO, but people think it's Si sometimes). You're trying to break down a complicated task into such a stereotypical dichotomy that it doesn't work, making the foundation shaky.
Thanks for feedback, I really tried to write something awesome, but expressing thoughts was a failure to some degree. Now I realize, that I described unhealthy or problematic Se with N in first duo. Irl I have seen ENFP, who is overindulging in his extraverted function and often fails to use his second duo's functions. Due to that, he often doesn't feel, when he is sitting too wide and touches people, literally asks for every answer on test. Well he seems to be healthy person, but I don't think, that his second duo's ignorance is good. I think it's unhealthy.

Okay, it's really hard to come up with N and S conflict for me, so I will retry to do that with judging functions.

Imagine situation, where you have a car. Let's say it's BMW E36 M3. Someone offers you to exchange it for the same condition BMW E46 M3. Internal monologue of F in first duo and T in the second:
F: man I really like my E36 M3, I love it a lot. I don't want to trade it.
T: but you see newer M3 is overall better car, it has better suspension, more power and better brakes
F: oh, but I really like E36 a lot, even if E46 is an upgrade, I fear, that I may not be able to value it as much as E36.
T: you can sell E46 later and get more money, then buy E36 and you will have some money for upgrades
F: no, it's not the same thing. It won't be my car then.

Later individual decides to have his E36 M3 and decline the offer.

This example of course has some P functions inside, too, but I tried to focus on judging process. As you can see individual has more resistance with his T function, F overpowers T. Also I tried to make those two functions to look healthy, so it may appear to be as too good for reality. Sorry if it does, but the most important thing was to show the concept of resistance in typology here.

Also there is irl example of very similar situation, shown in those video:

As you can see, he acknowledges, that he bought a worse car (Te works correctly), but he really likes it and has feelings for it (Fi with less resistance and is pretty healthy). That's a cognitive function order and resistance example in real life.

Was this explanation any better at explaining resistance and duo preferences?
 

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MOTM February 2014
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Thanks for feedback, I really tried to write something awesome, but expressing thoughts was a failure to some degree. Now I realize, that I described unhealthy or problematic Se with N in first duo. Irl I have seen ENFP, who is overindulging in his extraverted function and often fails to use his second duo's functions. Due to that, he often doesn't feel, when he is sitting too wide and touches people, literally asks for every answer on test. Well he seems to be healthy person, but I don't think, that his second duo's ignorance is good. I think it's unhealthy.
I think the word that might suit better is "under-developed." I'm still skeptical such examples accurately sum up the way S/N works (or don't work), but I'll admit I can't come up with anything else, either.

I just... wouldn't put it past a Sensor to do similar behaviors. Being a Sensor doesn't automatically mean you have strong spatial awareness, and being an iNtuitive doesn't automatically mean you lack spatial awareness. It's the way you absorb information, it's not the way you interact with the world.

Was this explanation any better at explaining resistance and duo preferences?
Yes - as long as you acknowledge that the T functions can also come up with reasons why they should keep things (whether faulty reasons or not). The reasons wouldn't be as... sentimental, but the person making them could still Judge them based on "T reasons."
 
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