[JoCZker]

I love stories. Well, who here doesnt. But what I like most, are for some reasons stories about redemption or atonement. I dont like stories about black and white heroes, or anti-heroes. I like stories about people, who does something wrong and now they are trying to live with it or fix it or find a peace at least . . . . And I thought, that it could be interesting topic for INFPs, since we are considered those idealists. So, lets talk about this, shall we?

1. Do you know some good story, fictional or real about redemption?
2. Do you believe in possibility of atonement? Can we pay somehow for bad things we have done? I mean in religious sense or in profane way, it doesnt matter.
3. Is there something you considere unforgivable?
4. And how can we fix what is forgivable?
5. And what to do, when we commit something unforgivable?
6. Do you feel guilty often? I think, that my love of this topic is very much because I feel guilty all the time about many things and I am constantly trying to torture myself to "pay for my crimes."

Dont answer this number by number, its more just suggestion of related questions to this topic. Feel free to write anything, if you feel interested about this topic.

 

[wisdom]

Too deep a topic for the fast-moving forum? Blah. I like it, though I can't give it a great, contemplative reply.

1. Les Miserables (yes, I do like stories about redemption).
2. Yes.
3. Crimes like premeditated murder.
4. Do good for others.
6. That's interesting thought, though I'm not sure it applies to me. I feel guilty sometimes, but rarely do I think about deliberately punishing myself or making amends.

 

[Blickwinkel]

Hmm. I'll answer 1 for now.

1. Do you know some good story, fictional or real about redemption?
Yes. Have you ever seen the movie Crash, the one that came out in 2004? That whole movie is chock full of different characters going through some sort of redemption, with a one or two exceptions. My favorite redemption story in this movie is the cop's.

*Spoilers for Crash*
In the beginning of the movie, there's this cop. The cop discovers that his dad has some sort of problem, I forgot exactly, but his dad is in a lot of pain and no doctor will see his father for a while. The cop becomes frustrated and takes out his frustration on a couple. Long story short, the cop ends up violating the woman, putting his hands in places they shouldn't be.

So, for most of the movie, you see this cop painted in a negative light. He's a racist jerk who takes his frustrations out on whoever he can, abusing his power as a cop for the sake of his own peace of mind. Halfway through the movie though, there's a twist. The woman who had been violated gets involved in a car accident, and the cop who violated her ends up saving her life. What compelled me about this scene was how it ended. After the cop pulls her out of the car, she doesn't thank him or forgive him...she simply is escorted away while looking back at him shaking her head. She doesn't know how to handle the situation. She had painted him to be a disgusting man.....but he had just risked his own life to save her.

Its hard to describe what happened between him and her, but if I were forced to describe this scene in one word, i'd say reconciliation. Things were once broke, but are slowly being healed. It doesn't change what happened, but its a step in the right direction.

 

[ethylester]

Oh yes, I have a friend who could write a book about all the bad things he has gotten himself into and now is trying to mend and be a better person, one day at a time. I am extremely proud of him. One example that people would easily judge him harshly on was/is his sexual addiction. He struggled with a certain form of sexual addiction for several years. I am not going to say what it is because I feel I would be betraying my promise to him not to tell people. It was a huge burden for him to carry, a giant black mark on his pride and self-worth, yet he could not stop. I don't think his mind even allowed him to think about the hurt or disgust he was causing other people with this addiction. He just did it and didn't think about it.

Just in the last few months, he has decided to attend SAA (sexual addicts anonymous) meetings. He went to a couple and took home the literature to read. He stopped going to the meetings because they are centered around belief in a higher power, of which he has none, but the literature has been helping him. He finally realized that what he was doing was wrong and he expressed how sorry he was to me. He said he wishes there was a way he could tell the people he hurt that he is sorry. This moved me because every time we talked about his addiction, he never showed any concern for the people he was using. When he finally saw things from their perspective, it was a huge step in the right direction! He was actually viewing the people as people and not objects anymore. This is a triumph. Where there's a will, there's a way, and while he isn't completely cured of his addiction, he is so much better at controlling it than he was a year ago. The weight has been lifting slightly from his shoulders and he is becoming a more empathetic person.

See, people can change. Even so-called perverts can change. Our society can be so judgmental and cruel to people with abnormal sexual problems. We often, and rightfully, take the side of the victim. While the victim definitely needs our support, people fail to realize that pervs may be hurting too, and they have might a problem that should be dealt with in an empathetic manner. And if we just shame them and yell at them because we are mad, it's not going to make their problem go away, just as with any deep psychological problem. They can heal and they can feel remorse and be better people if they have someone to talk to who will not judge them.

Please don't take what I just said to mean that I think sexual pervs are fine human beings. That's not what I meant. I am just saying that sometimes these, often men, have never faced their problems head on and realized that what they are doing may be harming someone. Some, not all, can be changed if people had the patience and courage to speak to these guys without judging them as horrible scum, and instead seeing them as someone with a legitimate problem that could ruin their lives and other people's lives if not dealt with properly.

hmm... I'm kind of scared to post this because you don't know the whole story about my friend and I don't want people to think that I side with rapists or something outlandish like that. My friend didn't rape anybody, I'll say that much. What he did could be likened to being a peeping tom, but that's not what it was. I hope you can see what I'm trying to say with this post....

 

[icicle84]

The unforgivable crime/sin is the one that's not asked forgiveness for.

As long as there is a victim, there is the opportunity for forgiveness, and that's the beautiful thing about grace.

There's no way to atone for a crime or sin. There's restitution that can be paid for theft or damage. There's jail time that can be done for punishment.

But there's no way to erase a misdeed - no recompense that can be paid by a transgressor that will clean his slate.

Even if the General District Court judge takes your traffic ticket under advisement, sees your community service and drops the charge, it doesn't change the fact that you drove 80 in a 45.

And this is especially true when it comes to crimes or sins against someone else. Assault, rape, murder. No way to "atone" for these. No good deed that you can do will ever erase what you've done.

One can spend 50 years in Sudan working with refugees and it still won't repay for misdeeds done in his youth.

But that's the beauty of this thing we call "redemption." It's completely dependent upon someone else.

I believe there's no way to be redeemed, except that a completely innocent victim willingly pays the price for your crime.

That's what's amazing about what I believe - I can't even come close to atoning for every wrong thing I've done in my life.

But there's Somebody that was the victim in every one of those cases, and He decided He would hear my pleas for forgiveness, and He would come and pay the penalty for those sins, and what's more, He would actually scrub my record and, before the highest Judge in the universe, He would hold me blameless for anything that I've ever done.

Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
Romans 10:13: "for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 5:1: "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Romans 8:1: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Romans 8:38-39: "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Sorry to quote exclusively from one book, but it's all in there

That's my view of redemption. It's a supernatural thing. There's nothing a human being can do that can redeem himself from one single bad choice. It's a divine thing.

 

[icicle84]

Incidentally, as far as stories, I'd say the story of the apostle Paul in the Bible is my favorite.

Book of Acts mainly, but all throughout Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, the story continues.

A dude goes from a persecutor, a participant in the stoning of an innocent man, known as the scourge of the early church, and becomes, after one miraculous meeting, the best-known preacher in church history.

I love it.

 

[Guph]

I love stories. Well, who here doesnt. But what I like most, are for some reasons stories about redemption or atonement. I dont like stories about black and white heroes, or anti-heroes. I like stories about people, who does something wrong and now they are trying to live with it or fix it or find a peace at least . . . . And I thought, that it could be interesting topic for INFPs, since we are considered those idealists. So, lets talk about this, shall we?

1. Do you know some good story, fictional or real about redemption?
2. Do you believe in possibility of atonement? Can we pay somehow for bad things we have done? I mean in religious sense or in profane way, it doesnt matter.
3. Is there something you considere unforgivable?
4. And how can we fix what is forgivable?
5. And what to do, when we commit something unforgivable?
6. Do you feel guilty often? I think, that my love of this topic is very much because I feel guilty all the time about many things and I am constantly trying to torture myself to "pay for my crimes."

Dont answer this number by number, its more just suggestion of related questions to this topic. Feel free to write anything, if you feel interested about this topic.

I love the concept of redemption. It basically summarizes my whole life.

1. Lost (the tv show) often told stories about redemption.
2. I strongly believe in the idea of atonement. I think it's a sort of divine justice, an equilibrium between good and evil that the universe naturally preserves. It's the hermetic law of rhythm.
3. Pretty much what @wisdom said. And mindless harm.
4. Prove that you're trustworthy with actual actions and not just with useless words.
5. As above, so below. :wink:
6. Absolutely, guilt is part of my identity. Somehow I hope it will stay within me forever.

Thank you for such a great topic!

 

[JoCZker]

I am very glad that this topic survived. This is really my favorite and personal topic, so I was little scared when it wanished from first sides so quickly without answers. So, thank you and we can talk about this now, because it seems it interests some of you also.

I am especially gratufull to @ethylester for his friends personal story. You dont have to explain or excuse anybody. I think I understand very well what you are trying to say. After all, this is exactly what this topic should also be about. About not to judge anybody. I think INFPs are good at not judging others. I always found it very ironic, that I can actually feel sorry for EVERYBODY, including the worst people that ever lived, but I cant feel sorry for myself . . . I can even feel sorry for people like Hitler. Not to excuse him, of course, or liberate him from his guilt . . . I just feel sorry for everybody, I was never vengeful person. . . .

Few months ago, I was in the shop. They catch some thief here. He was probably junkie, look very much like one, and I can tell,I was working with some. They were relatively polite to him, but he became agressive. He shouted at one of the cashiers and was trying to run away. There were some big guys here and they told him to stop it. He didnt stop it and started to be aggresive again. So they punched him few times. He fell on the floor, the police came and toke him away . . .

You can objectively say, that he deserved it. He was agressive, he was stealing at the shop . . . But for some reason I have tears in my eyes for him. Not because I believed, that underneth he is good person. He is very likely teribble person. But he is still human, and I was thinking about how I can go home and he will sleep in some cell and maybe die very young. I was thinking about what maked him that way. I was thinking about how easy it is for me, to end up like him one day. . . . And I was feeling sorry for him even because nobody else does . . . .

So, I think you dont have to worry @ethylester. Thank you for this and tell your friend that I support him and dont care very much for what he did. If you want to admit to him, that you told his story to somebody, of course.

I will soon try to give answers to my own questions, since this topic is active. Feel free to add anything else from your experience.

 

[AnnieeBubble]

Meh, I've done so many test papers etc at school, that I will be unable to answer questions without numbers XD

1. In a way, Catcher in the Rye but there are tons of Bible stories about atonement

2. I think by accepting your wrongdoings and apologizing, then gaining positive energy by sharing as much love and compassion among as many people as possible is a good way We all make mistakes I guess.. what counts is how you deal with them!

3. Murder. Taking a life I think breaks your soul permanently.

4. (See '2')

5. Hmm that's a tricky one.. not sure how. Unless maybe you give up your life for someone else, or even better, for a huge cause?! Yep, that would probably do it

6. Well I rarely actively try and hurt people so no... I don't generally feel guilty for what I have done but more for what I have not done.

 

[ethylester]

@JoCZker - I feel the same way as you regarding people who commit crimes and other atrocities. I want to know - where did their lives go wrong? How much pain are they carrying around with them? How many horrible things have been done to them to make them feel like the rest of humanity is nothing but hindrances to their selfish happiness or delusional ideas? It seems to be true that most people who commit crimes against innocent people have been hurt badly in their past. We like to yell at these people and hate them and lock them up forever, but we are just treating them like objects ourselves. Same thing they have done. Some people are dangers to society and it is right to take them away from the public so they cannot hurt anyone anymore. But I am all about at least attempting to understand and show care to these people. They are still people, no matter how messed up.

 

[JoCZker]

Well, it will be fair, if I will try to answer my own questions, just to add to the debate . . . Oh, my, Why did I ask about such complicated things?

1. Do you know some good story, fictional or real about redemption?
2. Do you believe in possibility of atonement? Can we pay somehow for bad things we have done? I mean in religious sense or in profane way, it doesnt matter.
3. Is there something you considere unforgivable?
4. And how can we fix what is forgivable?
5. And what to do, when we commit something unforgivable?
6. Do you feel guilty often? I think, that my love of this topic is very much because I feel guilty all the time about many things and I am constantly trying to torture myself to "pay for my crimes."

____________________________________________________________________________________


1.
Well, I do know many stories. But what about make it simple and just say, that very interesting movie about atonement is . . . . . Atonement. If you didnt see it, just do it. I loved the movie, even if I was actually only one from my friends who felt sorry for the "main" character. Strange. . . . .

I realised, that actually plenty of movies or books or stories are about redemption. Just mostly not so openly. But it is one of our human themes, it seems to me. And it is quit logical, isnt it? I know just a few people who claim, that they never makes mistakes. They all do, of course. But who am I to judge . . . .

I love books, so I know plenty of them about redemption. I like serious ones, classic ones, plenty of them . . . . But for some strange reason, one book that always came to my mind when it comes to this topic, is one fantasy book, that I read as a child. It is book from David Gemmel, called Knights of Dark Renown. I loved this book, even if it is not a "quality" literature. It just strikes me, when I was younger. And I still remember it, so I will pay back favour and recommend this book to you, if you didnt read it and you like fantasy. It is great story exactly about redemption, from many perspectives.

2.
Well, I do believe in possibilty of atonement. I dont know if God existed. I am always full of doubts about this. And his possible existence change a situation little, so it is hard to answer this question for me. If we take it from profane perspective, what makes it hard are IMHO two sides of every atonement. Its your own atonement and how others see you. You might feel at peace with yourself, but others will still hate you for something, or worst - others might forgive you, but you will be haunted for ever . . . .
I think that important is to start making things up. You might not suceed, but every try counts.

3.
No. Or more preciously. There are really, really bad things. But very often there are extenuating circumstances. Or just my weak heart. I am not saint. I do sometimes feel hate for somebody. But I also feel pity for the worst people. Does it mean I forgive them in a way? How is forgivenes actually done? It is not simple, is it?

4.
By trying our best, how else? Or sometimes just by leting ourself be forgiven . . .

5.
It is crossroad. You are down. At the lowest point. But you can still go down. Or you can do at least something. There may be things, that will never be forgotten. But life is not only about forgivness. If you did something unforgivable, you will either not feel sorry at all - and then you suck and there is propably no hope for you. Or you will feel at least little discomfort. And there is at least a little hope. Because if there is not, we can all call it out. You can try. You may never make things right, but you can try. And of course, sacrifice yourself in heroic way is helpfull.

6.
Strange to answer. Yes, I do feel guitly often, what a coincidence. But maybe you are not as bad as you think. . . . What about it?


Take care people.

 

[noonia]

The unforgivable crime/sin is the one that's not asked forgiveness for.

As long as there is a victim, there is the opportunity for forgiveness, and that's the beautiful thing about grace.

I like that. Nice, dynamic definition.

I believe in the possibility of atonement/redemption. Personally, I see 'redemption' in strongly relative terms- as in, the method of atonement, and/or whether or not atonement is possible, would depend on the crime, and the situation of the crime...