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How exactly would you distinguish between the two? @LeaT said to me the other day that we seem to have a Benefit relationship, but I could see the case for Supervision.
 

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How exactly would you distinguish between the two? @LeaT said to me the other day that we seem to have a Benefit relationship, but I could see the case for Supervision.
ILIs and EIIs are in Benefit relations, though some type Lea as LII, which would be quasi-identical relations, which could feel like supervision: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/showthread.php/11647-Have-you-ever-felt-supervised-by-your-quasi-identical i.e. sometimes you may feel like strangling your quasi.

In Benefit relations there is information of interest coming from Beneficiary's dominant function onto Benefactor's hidden agenda. The Benefactor is capable of assimilating this information. Thus the Benefactor is influenced by Beneficiary for the duration of their relations (however long they stay in touch). Beneficiary can change Benefactor's views and ideas.

In Supervision, however, whatever the supervisee says cannot be assimilated by the Supervisor and thus Supervisee has no effect on the Supervisor. What Supervisee says seems in need of further corrections and additions from the Supervisor. Supervisee cannot make Supervisor change their values and views.

Though both Benefit and Supervision are asymmetric relationship types, the above makes Benefit relations be less asymmetric than Supervision.
 

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How exactly would you distinguish between the two? @LeaT said to me the other day that we seem to have a Benefit relationship, but I could see the case for Supervision.
Is it in the sense that you understand each other easily but could never get the point of critique from each other? Why does she seem ENFj to you?

My sister is uptight on etiquette and she is ENFj, though it seems like her points of critique were from a TiSe perspective with regards to it. But it seems I wouldn't use Socionics to explain why she thinks that a lot of my mannerisms are alien, but I guess everybody has their own quirks that make sense to them.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Is it in the sense that you understand each other easily but could never get the point of critique from each other? Why does she seem ENFj to you?

My sister is uptight on etiquette and she is ENFj, though it seems like her points of critique were from a TiSe perspective with regards to it. But seem still I wouldn't use Socionics to explain why she thinks that a lot of my mannerisms are alien.
You mean INFj right? And while I understand that socionics cannot explain every aspect of your relationship, I'd just like to compare Benefit relations to Supervision relations more to find that one characteristic that sets them completely apart, even though I see aspects of both in the case of our friendship.
 

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You mean INFj right? And while I understand that socionics cannot explain every aspect of your relationship, I'd just like to compare Benefit relations to Supervision relations more to find that one characteristic that sets them completely apart, even though I see aspects of both in the case of our friendship.
INFj is beneficiary, their robust "Fi" easily influences you, it seems just seems amazing that they are so much better than you. ENFjs just seem to try to influence/criticize you but since they are coming from Fe understanding has a little translation barrier, unlike "Ne" in INFjs which is in the ID.

With Socionics it depends on the interpretation you pick, if you are trying to framework the limits to its advice on inter-type relations. With the version I ascribe to, the theory is limited to discussion, information elements processing elements as innate thought patterns style. Its the temperaments of a person that directly affect how they perceive reality, the "functions" (IM), and it is on the cognitive level (the cognitive side of socionics) that highly correlates with Jung's material. "Phenomenological cognition" some on 16types prefer to frame it.

Theoretically those who process the same information processing styles, have a high probability of liking each other as they don't have to "translate" as much. Whereas those who process information differently have the "difference", thus lower probability. I wouldn't take the quadra values or Information Metabolism stereotypes as useful due to their inconsistencies contradictions especially with the cognitive side. I find Enneagram being better at that, and more consistence with a lot more integrity over its claims, so I apply it on top of the cognitive side to explain the discrepancies in values between people sharing the same type as well as finding positive relations with the "bad relations types".
 

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Supervisee and Supervisor are inclined to mutual suspicions. The Supervisee doesn't agree with dominant orientation of the Supervisor. Its functioning goes against Supervisee's creative function so it seems harmful and malicious. I remember reading on 16types that Supervisor is kind of like a "bull in a china shop" with respect to their Supervisee (which also applies to conflict partner) since Supervisor's dominant orientation directly counters the creative efforts of Supervisee.

I think this sort of weariness doesn't exist in Benefit relations; there is more amiability and similarity of interests than in Benefit rather than in Supervision. In cases of quarrels, the Beneficiary is able to strike back by exposing Benefactor's obtuseness in their HA function, while the Supervisee attempts to strike at the role function of Supervisor.
 

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Supervisee and Supervisor are inclined to mutual suspicions. The Supervisee doesn't agree with dominant orientation of the Supervisor. Its functioning goes against Supervisee's creative function so it seems harmful and malicious. I remember reading on 16types that Supervisor is kind of like a "bull in a china shop" with respect to their Supervisee (which also applies to conflict partner) since Supervisor's dominant orientation directly counters the creative efforts of Supervisee.

I think this sort of weariness doesn't exist in Benefit relations; there is more amiability and similarity of interests than in Benefit rather than in Supervision. In cases of quarrels, the Beneficiary is able to strike back by exposing Benefactor's obtuseness in their HA function, while the Supervisee attempts to strike at the role function.
Based on this, I still think we have more of a benefactor relationship.
 

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I will note that I have been in what, according to intertype relations theory, is a Supervisor/Supervisee relationship with an IEE for over a year now, and I will say, though the dynamic is somewhat descriptive of the problems that are sometimes had in communication, the overall interaction between us is really not as the often fatalistic descriptions would depict. More than just the fact that we both put effort into maintaining what is to both of us a healthy relationship, it would be difficult for me to even say the overall sentiment of the Supervisor/Supervisee relationship is true for us, for although I do recognize that the functional analysis is rather accurate, there doesn't even seem to be a fundamental misunderstanding between us. We operate in very different ways and though this can sometimes become an issue in times of crisis, I would never say that it creates an inherent problem for us and it hasn't for almost a year and a half.

I will also say that there is not much possibility that either of us are not the types with which we identify (LII and IEE for me and her, respectively).

Hence, I would argue that if you're trying to determine what kind of intertype relation you're in with another person, perhaps overlook the larger and often more credulous conclusions that are made and instead look for the intertype dynamic that exists there and see if it fits.
 

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I will note that I have been in what, according to intertype relations theory, is a Supervisor/Supervisee relationship with an IEE for over a year now, and I will say, though the dynamic is somewhat descriptive of the problems that are sometimes had in communication, the overall interaction between us is really not as the often fatalistic descriptions would depict. More than just the fact that we both put effort into maintaining what is to both of us a healthy relationship, it would be difficult for me to even say the overall sentiment of the Supervisor/Supervisee relationship is true for us, for although I do recognize that the functional analysis is rather accurate, there doesn't even seem to be a fundamental misunderstanding between us. We operate in very different ways and though this can sometimes become an issue in times of crisis, I would never say that it creates an inherent problem for us and it hasn't for almost a year and a half.

I will also say that there is not much possibility that either of us are not the types with which we identify (LII and IEE for me and her, respectively).

Hence, I would argue that if you're trying to determine what kind of intertype relation you're in with another person, perhaps overlook the larger and often more credulous conclusions that are made and instead look for the intertype dynamic that exists there and see if it fits.
We tried, but it would help if Face could decide on her type already :dry: I am fairly sure about mine but she changes type as she changes clothes.
 

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There's a fleck of Supervision in Benefit, but Supervision is much more strict than Benefit. They're similar in that they are the only 2 asymmetric relationships in the system, and for somewhat similar reasons - basically, one person lacks what the other values, and the other person doesn't value what the one person is good at.

This is hardly a complete description, but generally Benefit lacks the feelings of inadequacy that come with Supervision, since your Benefactor values your Creative function more than your Supervisor does.

In Benefit, I find that EII sometimes have really interesting ideas or different ways of looking at something, but I always process them in favor of Ni. There can be ego battles in these relationships, but the difference is that the Benefactor sees how weak the Beneficiary is in his/her Dual-Seeking function and tries to correct flaws in it. The Beneficiary may try to "educate" the Benefactor in favor of their Creative, but the Benefactor doesn't really care.

Example:

EII: "You shouldn't box yourself in with personality theory. You're limiting your potential"
ILI: "But I'm not boxing myself in. There is a systematic method of observing the people around you, and it is usually accurate. I would be limiting my own potential if I didn't take advantage of it, and you should too. I'll send you a website."


Supervision, on the other hand, has a more extreme set of corrective scenarios. Unlike in Benefit where the Benefactor gives at least some space to the Benefaciary (though they doubt the Beneficiary will make it on their own), your Supervisor thinks they have to take direct action to "save" the Supervisee. They see the flaws more clearly and get a stronger sense of self value/ego boost from helping. No matter what the Supervisee does or says, the Supervisor either is neutral or finds something to correct. The Supervisee feels huge pressure, because they're always being corrected and checked for things they simply can't do as well as the Supervisor. Sometimes the relationship can be positive for some time, and won't feel like "Supervision" per se - but it happens eventually. And the warmth that Benefit has is at best very sporadic with Supervision.
 

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Benefit relations last longer in my experience. The Benefactor is continuously attracted by Beneficiary's dominant function. There is a sense that you can at least partially depend on a person and receive valuable feedback from them. If needed be, the Beneficiary can "correct" the Benefactor from their dominant function is weaker in Benefactor (in case of EII-ILI interactions the EII will ethically re-orient the ILI, but they do it from intuitive, delta standpoint to which the ILI is only partially responsive).

In Supervision there is more asymmetry. The Supervisor doesn't feel like he or she can depend on the Supervisee, even if the later has proven to be a capable individual of their own right. Whatever the Supervisee is doing seems to require inspection and revision from you when you are the Supervisor in these relations. In Supervision marriages I've seen this causes anxiety for the person in role of Supervisor because they start feeling like they have to pull the entire weight of the family and that person who is Supervisee isn't pulling their share. In this manner, Supervision is more like parent-child relations while Benefit is more like older sibling-younger sibling relations.
 

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In this manner, Supervision is more like parent-child relations while Benefit is more like older sibling-younger sibling relations.
Interesting point. If I have to pick one, it feels more like the latter than the former but I am not sure about how correct it is.

I just remembered that I told face the other day that in some ways she feels older and more mature than I despite me clearly being much older. I feel the same way with @Amaterasu who is probably an ILI. Is that common for the benefit relationship?

Also, I can see the whole Fi thing with Ama. We Fi a lot together lol.
 

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Interesting point. If I have to pick one, it feels more like the latter than the former but I am not sure about how correct it is.

I just remembered that I told face the other day that in some ways she feels older and more mature than I despite me clearly being much older. I feel the same way with @Amaterasu who is probably an ILI. Is that common for the benefit relationship?

Also, I can see the whole Fi thing with Ama. We Fi a lot together lol.
I think that's the whole "warmth" thing. There's a certain connection/attraction to Benefit. This is going to sound stupid, but my reaction is something like "haha that's cute," which is fine casually but in more serious situations it's "wow, you really can't make it - here, let me take the reign."

With Supervision, it's a different "wow," more like "wow, you really just don't get it - I kind of feel sorry for you." Then, "well, you didn't get it, here let me just do it for you - no hard feelings." With LSE, it's after they've demonstrated that the way they try and see patterns is entirely devoid of anything intangible. Every now and then they make some prepackaged remark about it that makes me think "well, maybe they're starting to finally get it" - but when forced to do it on their own, they totally flop. My college roommate of 3 years is an LSE, and I helped him study for the LSAT, as well as come up with (heh, Ni-directed) ideas for papers in his English major classes. Believe me, Supervision is bad for the Supervisee. I actually made him break down a few times without knowing it. I really thought there was an end in sight, where he would learn to do it on his own - but no, I probably made it worse. I sincerely like him as a friend, but I have absolutely zero intellectual respect for him and have to bite my tongue in criticism.

But with Benefit, it's more congenial. I usually think "how on earth do you even function?" but it's kept at a distance because they seem more independent. It's that they're capable, but missing something important and putting too much emphasis on the wrong things, not entirely inept. You can see it with my interactions with EII here. I like them and give them more respect than LSE (they have something more likely useful to say), but there's often something to be corrected.

Typically with stubborn resistance :)
 

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But with Benefit, it's more congenial. I usually think "how on earth do you even function?" but it's kept at a distance because they seem more independent. It's that they're capable, but missing something important and putting too much emphasis on the wrong things, not entirely inept. You can see it with my interactions with EII here. I like them and give them more respect than LSE (they have something more likely useful to say), but there's often something to be corrected.

Typically with stubborn resistance :)
I think I can see what you mean because sometimes face is just so godamn democratic refusing to take sides and I'm just like WUT. I can see she has a point but when she does it and I in particular assume she will take my side it tends to irk me quite a bit. Otherwise it's fairly peaceful though. I think Ama is not as democratic as face is, but she has a similar tendency actually, when I think about it, and it irks me for the same reason. I Fi far less together with face though I think.
 

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I think I can see what you mean because sometimes face is just so godamn democratic refusing to take sides and I'm just like WUT. I can see she has a point but when she does it and I in particular assume she will take my side it tends to irk me quite a bit. Otherwise it's fairly peaceful though.
I always thought of Gammas as a "my people, your people" sort, personally - maybe not in the sense that they're all gathered around a common belief and willing to "shun the non-believer" but rather based on the strong connections between them. Kind of a "this is my family (blood or otherwise); we do what we please together, but touch them and I kick your ass" sort of thing. It isn't really about agreeing or disagreeing so much as standing up for the people you care about should you feel they are being threatened or harmed.

Edit: I think a good example of this would be Natsu Dragneel (SEE) from Fairy Tail. He gets into some knockdown drag-outs with the members of his guild, but he is huge on loyalty within the "family" they form, and he'll beat the crap out of anyone who touches them. He even gets pissed off when enemies backstab each other; to him, they should be trusting and supporting each other.
 
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Interesting point. If I have to pick one, it feels more like the latter than the former but I am not sure about how correct it is.

I just remembered that I told face the other day that in some ways she feels older and more mature than I despite me clearly being much older. I feel the same way with @Amaterasu who is probably an ILI. Is that common for the benefit relationship?

Also, I can see the whole Fi thing with Ama. We Fi a lot together lol.
In my experience this is common in relations between types with Ni and Ne as ego functions in general.

Ni types make an impression of "old souls", who feel like there is little novelty to this world, that many events are predictable outcomes of the cycles of life; they are more serious and monotone in their conceptual outlook. Ne types in comparison are "youthful in spirit", for them anything is possible, they don't have that same heavy sense of predetermination of Ni-types; they are looking at the world afresh and rediscovering it every day (probably why erotic styles call Ne-types "childish").

The above impression can come from several different relationship types.

I always thought of Gammas as a "my people, your people" sort, personally - maybe not in the sense that they're all gathered around a common belief and willing to "shun the non-believer" but rather based on the strong connections between them. Kind of a "this is my family (blood or otherwise); we do what we please together, but touch them and I kick your ass" sort of thing.
I agree with this, and this is also what I've seen of Alphas.
 

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I always thought of Gammas as a "my people, your people" sort, personally - maybe not in the sense that they're all gathered around a common belief and willing to "shun the non-believer" but rather based on the strong connections between them. Kind of a "this is my family (blood or otherwise); we do what we please together, but touch them and I kick your ass" sort of thing. It isn't really about agreeing or disagreeing so much as standing up for the people you care about should you feel they are being threatened or harmed.

Edit: I think a good example of this would be Natsu Dragneel (SEE) from Fairy Tail. He gets into some knockdown drag-outs with the members of his guild, but he is huge on loyalty within the "family" they form, and he'll beat the crap out of anyone who touches them. He even gets pissed off when enemies backstab each other; to him, they should be trusting and supporting each other.
Would you think a comparison to Natsu would be your generic shonen hero in general? I admit I haven't read/watched Fairy Tail but I think I know what you mean, kind of. Naruto for example? I don't think we share that kind of affinity like blood or family though. Usually in those cases it's not so much that I'm wronged or that I wronged someone, it's more that I want her to take my intellectual side :p
 

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In my experience this is common in relations between types with Ni and Ne as ego functions in general.

Ni types make an impression of "old souls", who feel like there is little novelty to this world, that many events are predictable outcomes of the cycles of life; they are more serious and monotone in their conceptual outlook. Ne types in comparison are "youthful in spirit", for them anything is possible, they don't have that same heavy sense of predetermination of Ni-types; they are looking at the world afresh and rediscovering it every day (probably why erotic styles call Ne-types "childish").

The above impression can come from several different relationship types.
And how would you contrast it to Ne and Se?

When you talk about Ni coming off as "heavy", yeah, that's a good description. I remember I once told her she was like the rock that stands the test of time. No matter how eroded she will survive and be the only thing left to witness the dawn of a new world while the rest of us have perished long time ago. Ama has a similar vibe but I don't think it's as strong with her. Her Fi seems stronger than Face's though. I am not sure if those are simply individual differences in terms of development.

And if I were to describe myself yes, I feel that despite aging physically my mind does not and in a way it feels like I haven't mentally aged since I was 17-18. Of course this is not true, I know I have matured, but I do not feel old or like I'm aging.

If I were to contrast the two also, I feel like I often help Ama in the Fi department. She comes with a relationship question and I give her some of my personal perspectives and practical solutions she goes off and feels better. I am not sure how the Te would enter the picture there. We don't tend to discuss logical stuff when we talk, but our relationship doesn't demand to either.

I talk more about logical stuff with face and the one thing she does correct me on that can irk me at times is when I can be biased in my conclusions and I expect her to agree with my POV and she doesn't, not really wanting to side with anyone but preferring being neutral.

I think in our relationship, it's probably potentially thus far the biggest possibility for conflict. If we were in a work relationship, I can see how I could explode more easily if it turned out she had to do that a lot all the time.

What occurs is that I might say something like, I don't like this theory or this person or something, and she retorts that but you didn't consider this perspective which doesn't make your statement true, like she assumes I overlooked or didn't consider it before I formulated my opinion. In some cases I did overlook it, in some cases I choose to find that perspective to be less relevant. Regardless, I guess it feels like she undermines my position or logical validity or something like that.
 

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Would you think a comparison to Natsu would be your generic shonen hero in general? I admit I haven't read/watched Fairy Tail but I think I know what you mean, kind of. Naruto for example? I don't think we share that kind of affinity like blood or family though. Usually in those cases it's not so much that I'm wronged or that I wronged someone, it's more that I want her to take my intellectual side :p
SEE is the fairly standard shounen hero, from what I've heard. Think Naruto, Son Goku (DBZ), probably Son Goku of Saiyuki as well. Kamina of Gurren Lagann (technically a sidekick) is probably some sort of Se-base as well. When I say family, I don't mean legal or biological bonds. The Japanese have a term, "nakama", that sums it up pretty nicely (according to my understanding of it, which is more contextual than specific). These aren't people you're stuck with and can't get rid of; these are people with whom you've come together because of the regard you have for each other. Kinda like your "family by choice", as it were. Now, it doesn't have to be that extreme; there are people with whom I am not particularly emotionally close but do regard with some degree of fondness and who I still feel inclined to defend when attacked or maligned in some way. But there lie excessively complicated explanations.

Usually in those cases it's not so much that I'm wronged or that I wronged someone, it's more that I want her to take my intellectual side :p
Right, and I can understand that. That doesn't strike me as particularly aristocratic vs democratic, though.
 

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I always thought of Gammas as a "my people, your people" sort, personally - maybe not in the sense that they're all gathered around a common belief and willing to "shun the non-believer" but rather based on the strong connections between them. Kind of a "this is my family (blood or otherwise); we do what we please together, but touch them and I kick your ass" sort of thing. It isn't really about agreeing or disagreeing so much as standing up for the people you care about should you feel they are being threatened or harmed.

Edit: I think a good example of this would be Natsu Dragneel (SEE) from Fairy Tail. He gets into some knockdown drag-outs with the members of his guild, but he is huge on loyalty within the "family" they form, and he'll beat the crap out of anyone who touches them. He even gets pissed off when enemies backstab each other; to him, they should be trusting and supporting each other.
Hmmmm. I am kind of protective of people sometimes or something like that. It's like "don't fuck with my things."
And I think what you described about Natsu is what makes me appreciate him as a character.

In my experience this is common in relations between types with Ni and Ne as ego functions in general.

Ni types make an impression of "old souls", who feel like there is little novelty to this world, that many events are predictable outcomes of the cycles of life; they are more serious and monotone in their conceptual outlook. Ne types in comparison are "youthful in spirit", for them anything is possible, they don't have that same heavy sense of predetermination of Ni-types; they are looking at the world afresh and rediscovering it every day (probably why erotic styles call Ne-types "childish").

The above impression can come from several different relationship types.


I agree with this, and this is also what I've seen of Alphas.
Interesting. I get told things like that all the time, and I guess I see a bit of that dynamic with LeaT and myself.

Would you think a comparison to Natsu would be your generic shonen hero in general? I admit I haven't read/watched Fairy Tail but I think I know what you mean, kind of. Naruto for example? I don't think we share that kind of affinity like blood or family though. Usually in those cases it's not so much that I'm wronged or that I wronged someone, it's more that I want her to take my intellectual side :p
But I think the difference with Naruto and Natsu is that Naruto is being largely self-sacrificial for people who originally ostracized him in some ways. He's kind of promoting those "family" values because it was something he lacked for the longest time, and he believed that no one else should ever have to suffer that kind of pain. Lol.
 
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