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hiyaa! okay so im a little embarrassed, maybe i need to provide some context.
Basically i created this account 3 years ago because of a certain person. I jumped here few times whenever i panic or get confused, mainly because this is something i cant tell anyone around me (its a secret, plus to avoid judgment).

So this INTJ and I are online friends, and im not sure why but we both kept our friendship a secret. I started getting confused when he hinted an interest quite a few times but I never knew how to act because i dont really get these stuff. He can be distant, but sometimes he'd be very sweet. Few times he showed a slightly vulnerable side which i found super cute, he'd disappear whenever he did that tho. He asked me back then to "annoy him" often but i honestly couldn't stay consistent because im just too shy and im afraid to be a bother by messaging everyday. Sometimes we wouldn't talk for months but we'd have a little convo out of the blue. He'd throw few nice compliments too.
Here's where things got confusing; after getting into a transitional phase, he's almost completely off social media now. But I can reach him through a certain app. He broke the silence once, and when i tried to keep the conversation up he completely disappeared for another month, i literally started to worry. Then he was back and showed a little warmth again. But then he's distant again aaaaaaa like it confuses and scares me at the same time. I dont understand if he's mad or just busy. and his replies recently are usually brief; okay i know he's always like that but it's been a while now. i cant help but wonder what was all of this about? But i dont want to pressure or anything.

I can't ask anyone or vent because its a secret and i'm trying my best to keep it... thus why this is the only place i can ask for advice. I dont know how to act and im honestly too scared to directly ask because what happens next? it's been 3 years im such a coward aaaaa
just ask directly. I know, it is the Achilles heel of the ENFP. But fear not, INTJs also have one.

Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for others (usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal of time and effort on a relationship, the knowledge and self-confidence that make them so successful in other areas can suddenly abandon or mislead them in interpersonal situations.

This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals; for instance, they tend to have little patience and less understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation (which most types consider half the fun of a relationship). To complicate matters, people of this type are usually extremely private, and can often be naturally impassive as well, which makes them easy to misread and misunderstand. Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense. :) This sometimes results in a peculiar naivete', paralleling that of many Fs -- only instead of expecting inexhaustible affection and empathy from a romantic relationship, the INTJ will expect inexhaustible reasonability and directness.

source: www.humanmetrics.com/personality/intj
[I'm specifically not using www.16personalities.com for this very reason]
If you want someone that "reads between the lines" aka "jedi", you are not going to find that with the INTJ, try an ISTJ. Now isn't this a conundrum? Why would MBTI pair the INTJ with the ENFP? Because they are complete opposites. [And they (INTJ) pick up visual social cues, which comes from the inferior functions (Fi Se or Se Fi rather), needs time to process] And it will force you, the ENFP, to be something else that you are not. You will have to stop, controlling the outcome, and skip the "normal, social nice to have bits" and be direct and not fear the outcome.

Examples of directness:

  • INTJ, are you romantically interest in me?
  • INTJ, can we go on a date?
  • INTJ, go with me on a date. <- just do this.
 

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hiyaa! okay so im a little embarrassed, maybe i need to provide some context.
Basically i created this account 3 years ago because of a certain person. I jumped here few times whenever i panic or get confused, mainly because this is something i cant tell anyone around me (its a secret, plus to avoid judgment).

So this INTJ and I are online friends, and im not sure why but we both kept our friendship a secret. I started getting confused when he hinted an interest quite a few times but I never knew how to act because i dont really get these stuff. He can be distant, but sometimes he'd be very sweet. Few times he showed a slightly vulnerable side which i found super cute, he'd disappear whenever he did that tho. He asked me back then to "annoy him" often but i honestly couldn't stay consistent because im just too shy and im afraid to be a bother by messaging everyday. Sometimes we wouldn't talk for months but we'd have a little convo out of the blue. He'd throw few nice compliments too.
Here's where things got confusing; after getting into a transitional phase, he's almost completely off social media now. But I can reach him through a certain app. He broke the silence once, and when i tried to keep the conversation up he completely disappeared for another month, i literally started to worry. Then he was back and showed a little warmth again. But then he's distant again aaaaaaa like it confuses and scares me at the same time. I dont understand if he's mad or just busy. and his replies recently are usually brief; okay i know he's always like that but it's been a while now. i cant help but wonder what was all of this about? But i dont want to pressure or anything.

I can't ask anyone or vent because its a secret and i'm trying my best to keep it... thus why this is the only place i can ask for advice. I dont know how to act and im honestly too scared to directly ask because what happens next? it's been 3 years im such a coward aaaaa
I'll second the "ask directly" advice, but honestly, if it's been three years and you don't get much more than a brief conversation once in a while, I think it's time to move on and find someone else. The internet is loaded with INTJ's, so you're in a good hunting ground. And INTJ's are often single, often male, and often attracted to ENFP's, so your odds of success at finding one are high.

The "it's a secret" thing is a red flag, by the way. Unless you're 15 or a K-Pop idol, there's no legitimate reason to keep a relationship a secret.
 

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@lilysocks thank you for explaining!
True you're right, you have a point. And he's kind of similar to how you've described yourself, there were some exceptional few days where his energy was different and he was slightly talkative. Next time we have a conversation I'll make sure to ask.

Hi @joup, thank you for the reply!
And yesss tell me about it, asking directly definitely is my Achilles heel. But I'll try my best to work on your advice.. okay maybe not ask directly " go with me on a date." because just reading it made me choke hahaha!

@xwsmithx, thank you!
You see, it's not actually a relationship, just a friendship with a lot of mixed signals in between. At some point i totally sensed mutuality and it got me anxious because this is all new to me. I found it slightly difficult to read the situation properly since it's mostly via texts, so I cant see through their eyes or analyze their body language and stuff.
If i have to be completely honest, I did consider what you said. I got scared and didn't know if these are red flags or just how he is. But once he told me it's because he hates it when people find anything to talk about. His friend mentioned once (in an unrelated conversation) that around 5 years ago people kept spreading rumors about both of them, so I just assumed maybe that's the motive behind it.

I'll try ask directly later once I find an appropriate moment to hold the conversation. I'll be fine with anything as long as everything's clear :fall: (omg cute emoticon!)
 

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@lilysocks thank you for explaining!
True you're right, you have a point. And he's kind of similar to how you've described yourself, there were some exceptional few days where his energy was different and he was slightly talkative. Next time we have a conversation I'll make sure to ask.

Hi @joup, thank you for the reply!
And yesss tell me about it, asking directly definitely is my Achilles heel. But I'll try my best to work on your advice.. okay maybe not ask directly " go with me on a date." because just reading it made me choke hahaha!

@xwsmithx, thank you!
You see, it's not actually a relationship, just a friendship with a lot of mixed signals in between. At some point i totally sensed mutuality and it got me anxious because this is all new to me. I found it slightly difficult to read the situation properly since it's mostly via texts, so I cant see through their eyes or analyze their body language and stuff.
If i have to be completely honest, I did consider what you said. I got scared and didn't know if these are red flags or just how he is. But once he told me it's because he hates it when people find anything to talk about. His friend mentioned once (in an unrelated conversation) that around 5 years ago people kept spreading rumors about both of them, so I just assumed maybe that's the motive behind it.

I'll try ask directly later once I find an appropriate moment to hold the conversation. I'll be fine with anything as long as everything's clear :fall: (omg cute emoticon!)
The problem, you see, is that most guys generally only give mixed signals to women they aren't all that interested in, while women become most attracted to guys who give mixed signals and not to guys who clearly express an interest. So if he's giving you mixed signals, he isn't all that interested. On the other hand, if he was madly in love with you and told you that, you'd run in the other direction.
 

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@xwsmithx You're right honestly, totally makes sense. Thank you for helping me see things clearly. I've been thinking it might be better to just treasure the friendship for now, as friends we've been good actually. I'd avoid anything else, and if he sent hints next time i'll be very straightforward and ask him what is this about (kinda tired of analyzing things myself hahaha).
As for now my mind has cleared up. Already started getting occupied again with my projects, family and hobbies.
Thank you loads!
 

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I appreciate your response and I think you're correct. I was too much too fast and she backed off. Problem is she did respond fairly quickly in the beginning and now she barely does. Which is universal code for not interested. But I screwed up, admitted it and was just trying to recalibrate myself and actually learn from it also. She said she was taking a step back. I took that as nice way to say not interested. I didn't handle it too well but she surprisingly sent me a message when I thought she was done. I thought that was nice. We exchanged a few nice texts next couple of weeks but she's even more distant. So the problem with directly asking what she is doing, thinking or wants is me just being too much again. We don't really even have a back and forth dialogue over text. So I don't know if I should just go away, take it slow or do something more direct...
 

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So I don't know if I should just go away, take it slow or do something more direct...
far as i can tell, you're not the one doing anything now. if you're comfortable responding to whatever she initiates, you could just do that. the only way to 'go away' would be if you didn't respond to whatever she sends.

i can't say if 'step back' means 'not interested'. i've never done the dating or mating games, so i can't say what a given phrase means in that dialect. i talk to people if i like them, and even platonically there can be boundaries around how much and how fast i want to do that. but when i do talk to them, i don't feel comfortable having future-based labels put on the interaction. none of this is very helpful for interpreting her since we're different people and she could be in a very different space. i think you pretty much have to work out what your own comfort line is, rather than trying to second-guess hers and then take your direction from there.
 

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Does unsolicited sympathy/pity bother yáll?

For example, I'm talking about my POS mother and an incident that happened between us because someone asked a question about it. Then, I get a bunch of "you need to know it's not your fault" directed at me. But I'm like... I- I know lol, just relaying information and even if it was my fault, I'd accept it.

I've stopped fighting it when ppl give it, but I still get annoyed from time to time & don't know why.
 

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I've stopped fighting it when ppl give it, but I still get annoyed from time to time & don't know why.
I like to watch and predict for that in this forum. Intj provides piece of personal info for the relevance that it has, and I like to play 'wait for it... ' and count down to when somebody else produces the apparently-obligatory 'I'm sorry that happened to you... ' and then I check the sorry be-ers type tag :tongue: Yup. Almost always an infj or fp. Enfps mis-respond too, but in a slightly different tone.

I can't say I'm used to it, since I have adapted in the direction of cutting quite carefully to assess how well I'll be able to tolerate it from a given person, before I'll say anything tat might trigger the mechanism in them. I'm pretty good at stiffening the cell barriers so it can just roll off if it comes. But I do not like it and never have. I've just learned to put up with the fact that many people are like this and it's going to be up to me to keep it from affecting me since they are unlikely to change

And unwarranted 'not your fault' would actively piss me off though. Did I say I thought it was my fault? Do I look to you like a person who would need to hear it from someone like you before it would enter my mind? Did I ask you to participate in my personal process of making sense of my life? Weird emoness always jarring because it shows a profound disconnect between what thought we were doing with a conversation, and eat the other person apparently thinks I thought we were doing. But facile oprahspeak like 'not your fault' comes perilously closer to being outright belittling, to me.
 

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^ also, 'you need to' is a locution that ought to die in a fire,especially in any psychological or emotional context. From relative strangers it's way out of line. They just don't have any standing to be prescriptive like that.
 

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I like to watch and predict for that in this forum. Intj provides piece of personal info for the relevance that it has, and I like to play 'wait for it... ' and count down to when somebody else produces the apparently-obligatory 'I'm sorry that happened to you... ' and then I check the sorry be-ers type tag :tongue: Yup. Almost always an infj or fp. Enfps mis-respond too, but in a slightly different tone.

I can't say I'm used to it, since I have adapted in the direction of cutting quite carefully to assess how well I'll be able to tolerate it from a given person, before I'll say anything tat might trigger the mechanism in them. I'm pretty good at stiffening the cell barriers so it can just roll off if it comes. But I do not like it and never have. I've just learned to put up with the fact that many people are like this and it's going to be up to me to keep it from affecting me since they are unlikely to change

And unwarranted 'not your fault' would actively piss me off though. Did I say I thought it was my fault? Do I look to you like a person who would need to hear it from someone like you before it would enter my mind? Did I ask you to participate in my personal process of making sense of my life? Weird emoness always jarring because it shows a profound disconnect between what thought we were doing with a conversation, and eat the other person apparently thinks I thought we were doing. But facile oprahspeak like 'not your fault' comes perilously closer to being outright belittling, to me.
Just realized that I posted this in the wrong thread ha

But yes, my first thought was, 'what makes you think I took responsibility for this?' but I just left it alone bc if I'd reacted like that, then it would turn into a diff problem with said persons trying to dissect my personality and, likely, saying "Oh, now I see why your xx situation is the way it is" in an attempt to shift blame when no one asked them to assign it in the first place.

Lemme go put this in the regular ask thread.

eta: and funny you mention Oprah. She used to be big on accountability, still is to some extent, but now that she's gone hard with pushing her favorite "spiritualists" she's jumped on the self-soothing train.
 

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Just realized that I posted this in the wrong thread ha

But yes, my first thought was, 'what makes you think I took responsibility for this?' but I just left it alone bc if I'd reacted like that, then it would turn into a diff problem with said persons trying to dissect my personality and, likely, saying "Oh, now I see why your xx situation is the way it is" in an attempt to shift blame when no one asked them to assign it in the first place.

Lemme go put this in the regular ask thread.

eta: and funny you mention Oprah. She used to be big on accountability, still is to some extent, but now that she's gone hard with pushing her favorite "spiritualists" she's jumped on the self-soothing train.
Hah. So whatever you recount from long ago 'wasn't your fault' but anything this person decides attribute to it ... somehow is. I don't appreciate strangers editorializing on my personal space at the best of times,but when it reaches that level it's 'you suck unless you allow me to define who you are. '
 

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Does unsolicited sympathy/pity bother yáll?

For example, I'm talking about my POS mother and an incident that happened between us because someone asked a question about it. Then, I get a bunch of "you need to know it's not your fault" directed at me. But I'm like... I- I know lol, just relaying information and even if it was my fault, I'd accept it.

I've stopped fighting it when ppl give it, but I still get annoyed from time to time & don't know why.
Yep! lol I also remember a funny interaction a few years ago where a coworker was telling me about some pretty interesting but painful chronic condition she has. She was very matter of fact about it and is more of a science-y type and I am very interested in random diseases and illnesses so I was asking all sorts of questions about it and like "oh it must work like X because it's similar to Y and must attack the same thing" and so on. Meanwhile also there was ENFP coworker who kept making sad noises and like "oh no! I'm so sorry you have this! Oh that must be terrible!" pity comments and the original coworker just looked surprised and like "oh, no. it's fine. I've lived with this all my life, I'm not sharing for that.."

I think some people can't help but to do it or don't understand how it could be talked about in a context other than one where someone is looking for sympathy when that's not the case.
 

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They have to do that, unsolicited sympathy/pity. Not because of they do care for the unfortunate people, no, but simply because the act gives them the dopamine. They crave to feel good about themselves. They need the validation, however superficial and self generated.

Which in turn this explain the behavior of the so-called 'virtue signaller'. Thanks for bringing this up, now i understand.

Sent sans PC
 

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"Back in the day", when I was still stupid enough to try and have an at least semi intelligent conversation with someone, and people would ask about my back ground, etc - growing up , family etc - the general small talk icebreaker shit and I would like tell them the truth about how I grew up in a series of foster homes, was never adopted, blah ,blah, blah.........



<<<<<<<<--------------------take it frum a koon!

..........and they would be like "Oh thats so sad" along with many of its derivations, etc. and I would be like , yeah well I'm kinda over it since I was 10 or 11 and seeing as I'm sort of an adult now and in fact I'm living proof that parents are totally overrated anyhow........ :ambivalence::idunno:
 
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It's interesting how you guys are bothered by those phrases. To me they would barely even register, I would just consider them part of normal etiquette and therefore mostly meaningless. It would actually feel more strange if I told somebody about an unpleasant part of my childhood and they actually gave their honest unsympathetic opinion, like maybe, "Welp, shit happens. And you turned out okay!" I mean it'd be true but I think you would need to be either socially clueless or have emotional balls of steel to say something like that to a relative stranger, I mean you never know if that person has massive issues and could blow up any moment. I wouldn't even dare say it to some of my family members. The safest course of action is usually doing what everybody else always does, which is pretending to be sorry and getting possessed by Oprah apparently.
 

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It would actually feel more strange if I told somebody about an unpleasant part of my childhood and they actually gave their honest unsympathetic opinion
huh. you still frame it all as a response that takes place on some emotional plane, right? whether it's intrusively sappy or flip and dismissive, both of those are still reactions to the (presumed) emotional load of whatever was shared.

see, for me that's where the issue is. just because i disclose a detail that could be assumed to have an emotional aspect to it, doesn't mean that's the aspect i'm inviting them to make comments about.

it's not just annoying because it's intrusive. it's also annoying because it derails. if i even say something that could be considered personal, then i'm probably invested in whatever the conversation was about before they threw in the false note. now suddenly for some reason, we're talking about something else and it's not the thing that got me interested. i've had it happen a lot around certain topics and it's really irritating.

The safest course of action is usually doing what everybody else always does, which is pretending to be sorry and getting possessed by Oprah apparently.
honestly though . . . the safest course of action would seem obviously [to me] to be: stick to whatever you and the other person were already talking about. like, there has to have been something that was already being discussed, right? with intjs at least, the chances of any one of us just randomly walking up to another person and saying 'my [fill in the blank] used to [fill in the blank] when i was a kid' out of nowhere is pretty much nil. just stick to the topic.
 

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I'm new here, and already found a fascinating topic thread. I have a pretty serious chronic illness and the thing that gets me is that I am looking for information when I bring it up. Unless I'm ranting, like now. :tongue:

Anyways, I am constantly judged for being whiny, or lazy, or disbelieved entirely. Obviously not just me, but millions with diseases such as Lupus or MS. It's gotten to the point where memes float around like: "If I wanted to fake an illness, I'd pick one people believed."

I have also been through quite a number of other things in my life that gets brought up for one reason or another, and it irks me every time to get that fake pity. Especially since it's immediately followed (as in, within a few conversations) with an attitude of "It's in the past. Move on."

What it feels like is like how people treat dogs: pet them on the head, coo at them, give them some attention, and that's supposed to be it. Very disrespectful. :dry:

When someone else is talking about an issue, for me it depends on how they're talking about it. If it's really clear they're emotional, I will play the empathy card. That means sitting and listening, actually being with them and how serious it feels to them. Otherwise, if it's more about brainstorming or relevant to something going on currently, I will focus on the problem-solving aspect.

Even with strangers, if they're really struggling I will step in as much as they will let me.

I don't like half-hearted responses of any kind, and I don't like that it's considered social etiquette. To me, it seems there are so many falsehoods in social etiquette, lying and deceptions are ok, and that bothers the hell out of me. I would rather know what's really going on with someone. If they don't care, I'd prefer if they just made it obvious.

Like in these forums people can just skip reading this if they're not interested and don't feel obligated to leave any sort of response by being "around" me. Can that just be an irl thing too?

Apologies if I knocked this off track in any way.
 

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huh. you still frame it all as a response that takes place on some emotional plane, right? whether it's intrusively sappy or flip and dismissive, both of those are still reactions to the (presumed) emotional load of whatever was shared.

see, for me that's where the issue is. just because i disclose a detail that could be assumed to have an emotional aspect to it, doesn't mean that's the aspect i'm inviting them to make comments about.

it's not just annoying because it's intrusive. it's also annoying because it derails. if i even say something that could be considered personal, then i'm probably invested in whatever the conversation was about before they threw in the false note. now suddenly for some reason, we're talking about something else and it's not the thing that got me interested. i've had it happen a lot around certain topics and it's really irritating.



honestly though . . . the safest course of action would seem obviously [to me] to be: stick to whatever you and the other person were already talking about. like, there has to have been something that was already being discussed, right? with intjs at least, the chances of any one of us just randomly walking up to another person and saying 'my [fill in the blank] used to [fill in the blank] when i was a kid' out of nowhere is pretty much nil. just stick to the topic.
I think that's a very Ni thing to expect. I find Ne users can have a lot of trouble sticking to the topic or even knowing what the topic is sometimes.

Also, could be a type thing or just me but I had no idea that form of "derailment" could be so annoying. Personally I wouldn't even recognize the unsolicited sympathy as a derailment - it'd be just a blip in the conversation before it either gets steered back on track or it moves on to some other topic. The only time I recognize derailments in conversations is on forums and scheduled meetings where you have threads or agendas dedicated to specific topics. Aside from that I wouldn't care enough to get annoyed.

But now I know not to go off-topic with an INTJ. :tongue:

I think what I meant by the "safest course of action" was based on my inf-Fe phobias and my experiences with family members. They are mostly feelers and Si users. They interpret almost everything emotionally and past traumatic events stay pretty fresh for them. I've had them blow up at me multiple times for not being sympathetic enough, and as an Fe inferior those are literally some of my worst experiences. Ha. In my mind I pictured a discussion with a random person I never met before and trying to navigate a potentially precarious topic without stepping into an Fe beartrap. But if I knew enough about the person and/or could glean from his/her tone and manner that it wasn't an emotional thing, I would not bother with the false sympathy.
 
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