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And I am an INTP- sexual 5w4. Maybe some are going to tell me “because you haven’t been with the right person”. I don’t know what a “right relationship” is. I just know that neither of my dating experiences have been enjoyable. It was like spending time with a stranger who maybe has issues (anger, etc) and if he doesn’t, he was an alien, someone who I can’t consider even my friend. I don’t understand this majority of people who prefer the company of their partner to friends, even in the early phases of relationship when they don’t know each other well, and consider their SO the most intimate person of their life.
I’m pretty sociable for an introvert. I enjoy being with my friends and in group hangouts- sometimes very much. I even managed an amateur little hiking group that left me lots of beautiful memories. I usually feel comfortable and accepted to a good extent among the mentioned friends/acquaintances. I also enjoy spending time alone. For example, if I want to visit my favourite sites of the city I definitely prefer to go there with someone I know appreciates it and I am happy with- it’s never my dates, whose behaviour easily disappoints me: not liking what I like, thinking about sexual advances everywhere, nagging about their lives, not sharing my feelings and not enjoying the moment. They often seemed indifferent to these issues though, and just wanted to be with a girl, maybe along with some conventional dating rituals.
That said, while I’m not an often horny person, I’m not asexual/demi-sexual either: I can feel attracted to strangers and fantasize about doing sexy things with them. I have sexual fantasies every single day. I do want sex in my relationships- but admittedly, my experiences haven’t been so exciting as the society and media promised. Maybe boring for the most part.

I have no idea of what an “enjoyable” relationship can be. But I know that mine weren’t. I have to deal with my inferior Fe all the time while I am dating someone; going through mood swings, emotion rushes, unusual stress (I hardly ever am anxious otherwise) and losing my energy without a desirable result.
Does it have anything to do with my Myers Briggs/Enneagram?
 

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Trough friendly hang-outs/ introduction/in college.
I have used different methods. The outcome is always the same: like I can't bear the presence of a romantic partner in my life.
 

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Trough friendly hang-outs/ introduction/in college.
I have used different methods. The outcome is always the same: like I can't bear the presence of a romantic partner in my life.
OK, but it sounds to me like you were indeed strangers with these people while at the same time having romantic expectations for each other. Is that correct?
 

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Have you tried taking the "getting to know them as friends first" route? It's risky (high chance of loss & zoning issues) but if you are slow on intimacy it might just be what the doctor ordered, increase your pool of friends to include people you might want to date later, but put it in the back burner for now so that next time you have a relationship you have a foundation of friendship to work with.
 

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OK, but it sounds to me like you were indeed strangers with these people while at the same time having romantic expectations for each other. Is that correct?
They weren't my friends, yes. Strangers. I doubt I can be first friends with someone I am attracted to: if they are becoming my best friends then chances are I don't want to be sexually involved with them.
 

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The outcome is always the same: like I can't bear the presence of a romantic partner in my life.
Perhaps it has less to do with romantic relationship itself being a net negative experience for you but rather the structure with which your previous romantic engagements have formulated into being.

By just briefly contrasting the experiences you outlined from friends and from your relationships

I usually feel comfortable and accepted to a good extent among the mentioned friends/acquaintances.
if I want to visit my favourite sites of the city I definitely prefer to go there with someone I know appreciates it and I am happy with-
These are usually qualities many people seek out in romantic relationships and tend to find them in successful ones.



They often seemed indifferent to these issues though, and just wanted to be with a girl, maybe along with some conventional dating rituals.
it’s never my dates, whose behaviour easily disappoints me: not liking what I like, thinking about sexual advances everywhere, nagging about their lives, not sharing my feelings and not enjoying the moment.
While these qualities are indicative of people who don't actually appreciate you as a person and might be simply engaging with you in order to satisfy their needs.

An enjoyable romantic relationship is not simply based on sexual interest. While that is a strong component of it, feelings of comfort and acceptance alongside appreciation and the ability to willingly spend time with someone because they make you happy run parallel to it.


I would not hasten to attribute this to personality type distinctions and differences as even the most intelligent minds have yet to untangle the complexities of romantic relationships and find any framework that accurately predicts human behavior in that field.

Instead personally I leave it up to the individual and their own questioning and reflection. For example, asking oneself if you are getting what you want out of your romantic relationships and if not what can you do to change that or what behaviors can one seek out to find that fulfillment.

Like it or not as much as people try and separate the two, sexual interest and the emotional self are intrinsically linked. You can't have one without the other and if you do it is simply a satisfaction of base animalistic desires of reproduction and sexual satisfaction for pleasure. At which point one should not really care about the wellbeing of the individual one is engaging with sexually as both are being used as tools and not as a means of deepening the bond between each other.
 

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Have you tried taking the "getting to know them as friends first" route? It's risky (high chance of loss & zoning issues) but if you are slow on intimacy it might just be what the doctor ordered, increase your pool of friends to include people you might want to date later, but put it in the back burner for now so that next time you have a relationship you have a foundation of friendship to work with.
Do you work in construction cause that's all I could think of when I read these parts. :laughing:
 
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Do you work in construction cause that's all I could think of when I read these parts. :laughing:
LOL, no but it was on my mind - I work for the city and since everyone in my department is either my staff or my boss, the two coworkers I end up socialize with the most are from engineering & legal. Building permits come up a lot :tongue:
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
While these qualities are indicative of people who don't actually appreciate you as a person and might be simply engaging with you in order to satisfy their needs.

An enjoyable romantic relationship is not simply based on sexual interest. While that is a strong component of it, feelings of comfort and acceptance alongside appreciation and the ability to willingly spend time with someone because they make you happy run parallel to it.
I see. And its never simple to find someone genuinely interested in you- things get more complicated when you want him to be willing to date you, too. I have guy friends; for example, this INTJ who shares lots of my values, enjoys hiking with me, we discuss abstract matters, sometimes going to mild quarrels, etc., but behaves his partner very differently: he once said that he could never tolerate having an argument with his love-interest, and if any opposition or misunderstanding popped up, he preferred to end the relationship as it "hurt so much". He goes to her while in heavy depressive moods and she soothes him like a sister (his words), she is always tender with him. She is extrovert and he introvert, he enjoys spending time in nature and she not ... as you she, there's not much of shared interests, while he expects so much emotional support.
That's how the relationships shape and further around me: you become someone's friend if you have similar hobbies and attitudes in life. None of my friends initiated a relationship with me or other members of the friends' circle. They prefer more of a stranger who provides sexual/emotional support.
 

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They weren't my friends, yes. Strangers. I doubt I can be first friends with someone I am attracted to: if they are becoming my best friends then chances are I don't want to be sexually involved with them.
I see.
I'm not sure just how type related it is, I'm sure there are connections but not with everything. I've been with an INTP for 9 years now, but I did know him for 2-3 years before. He didn't think he could handle relationships and the expectations of others before our relationship.

I think knowing the people before is could work better because your Fe wont go haywire from trying to connect with someone you know nothing about, trying to decipher their behavior/feelings and balance yours as well, which is basically what you already said yourself. If you have established communication on a basic level of closeness you can better handle the more intricate intimate feelings. They don't need to be your best friends from the start, they just need to be friends enough that you know you have common interests and can share your lives to a substantial degree. Perhaps you haven't found the right person indeed, one you can have both sexual/romantic feelings for and be able to share your life like a friend, luck is so important in these matters I'm afraid.
 

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Relationships suck so much of energy out of me without a considerate outcome
I can relate to this, a lot. Relationships demand and need time (two diff concepts), and the day only has 24 hours. Sometimes we are not in the best chapter of life to afford a relationship, the day will never have more hours and we can't actually multiply our energies. From basic start I can tell you it is like you say and it can stay like that for years, but we can do things to change the approach, I mean the beginning is the most time demanding chapter (were we learn how to engage and then we polish our own method). I've read some interesting literature about past couples and marriages having more levels of happiness, sure this can seen odd depending on what you read. The thing is several comparisons state that past practices included both partners having specific roles and both were busy, while in present is very common that both want them both to do everything or to share every aspect of life (socializing) this is impossible, we are individuals and yes we can live in couples but relationships are not about fusion, it's about learning to live and be happy together.

Relationships are a weird animal, and it chances on each individual. Break up? new partner? start again (but not all is lost in terms of learning and reusing that knowledge). Ohh you are an introvert!!! me too. Please excuse me if I'm starting from basic stuff but I don't have any knowledge of you, ok? well introverts need alone time to recover, some need more, and most times introverts can have special personal projects that can't actually be shared. The more efficient you are the less you can get out of your projects sharing them unless you delegate, and yes relationships take time of your personal life and projects. You being social can mean lots of people want to engage with you, that's ok but there is only so much time, right?

Sometimes we have to forget and learn again. Having a relationship is like a method we learn from direct or/and indirect influence, it's a set of attitudes and dymanics. Sometimes we have that wrong and we must re-learn. One of my favorite findings on human behavior (readings) goes to how sometimes, depending how we live, we might surprise ourselves having to learn how to be happy (how to feel happy). Sometimes you can get people out from their bad dynamics but their emotions are still tunned to them. Sometimes we just have to learn how to interact with DIFFERENT people, perhaps our selecting method is wrong, perhaps all we've been told is wrong!!!


For example, if I want to visit my favourite sites of the city I definitely prefer to go there with someone I know appreciates it and I am happy with- it’s never my dates, whose behaviour easily disappoints me: not liking what I like, thinking about sexual advances everywhere, nagging about their lives, not sharing my feelings and not enjoying the moment. They often seemed indifferent to these issues though, and just wanted to be with a girl, maybe along with some conventional dating rituals.

That said, while I’m not an often horny person, I’m not asexual/demi-sexual either: I can feel attracted to strangers and fantasize about doing sexy things with them. I have sexual fantasies every single day. I do want sex in my relationships- but admittedly, my experiences haven’t been so exciting as the society and media promised. Maybe boring for the most part.
I don't want to underestimate the situation or make it look as I'm doing so, but lots of readings, films and speciall sharing with lots of diff people can make it. I know what you mean, I also enjoy sharing places, moments, you sound like wanting a connection (emotional) in those moments, it's possible, but sometimes people are facing their cellphones in these days. Trust me there is people who enjoy the same things you describe, it takes trial and error when it comes to dating people.

I'm not against on the "friends first", why? well basically when something else is revealed (interest) people want to please and be accepted (we do too) but to me that alters the genuinity of the interaction, I like people to know me and get to know them in natural situations. After many mistakes I just want to know if we can hang out and get along before moving forward.

 
I'm int, introvert sure, since very young I had excellent verbal skills (spanish) and social skills too, but loved alone time. My mother forced me to hang out with people (that hurt) and also pushed me to believe what I was doing was wrong, and that I sould accept people. Accept? who said I didn't accept them? so I was pushed to hang out with people who didn't share my interest but I was forced to share theirs. Grew able to hold conversations in many, many areas, but many were not of my interest. Later in life I felt relationships had nothing for me, it was exhausting, boring, stupid, then tried some diff things and it was fun. Let me tell you, most of the women I've found to be fun to hang around where not liked by my family, that says a lot about many things (but talking about this needs some coffee and an afternoon), I was actually being forced on their taste, mine was forbidden. I can say later broke those chains.

Explore, get to know diff people, visit places that you like ALONE, you might find people who share the same interest already there. Some people go there alone.
 


Good luck.
 

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I see. And its never simple to find someone genuinely interested in you- things get more complicated when you want him to be willing to date you, too. I have guy friends; for example, this INTJ who shares lots of my values, enjoys hiking with me, we discuss abstract matters, sometimes going to mild quarrels, etc., but behaves his partner very differently: he once said that he could never tolerate having an argument with his love-interest, and if any opposition or misunderstanding popped up, he preferred to end the relationship as it "hurt so much". He goes to her while in heavy depressive moods and she soothes him like a sister (his words), she is always tender with him. She is extrovert and he introvert, he enjoys spending time in nature and she not ... as you she, there's not much of shared interests, while he expects so much emotional support.
That's how the relationships shape and further around me: you become someone's friend if you have similar hobbies and attitudes in life. None of my friends initiated a relationship with me or other members of the friends' circle. They prefer more of a stranger who provides sexual/emotional support.
I gotta be honest that type of behavior especially of your friend is quite strange. If hes not even willing to confront challenges and work out issues with a partner then how does he further strengthen and deepen the relationship. It seems to be simply based on satisfying each others sexual and emotional needs and nothing else in between.

I guess whatever works for some people. Personally I would tear my hair out if I didn't have a partner who enjoyed spending time with me and we had a few shared interests. Having too much in common can also become stale but having absolutely nothing seems to be just weird.

In a way that approach reduces the complexity of relationships to a degree because it is predicated on it simply being an exchange and not a growing entity.

But in essence you need to figure out what works for you and what you want ultimately. Going along with the approach that others around you take might not be how you want to carry on.
 

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And I am an INTP- sexual 5w4. Maybe some are going to tell me “because you haven’t been with the right person”. I don’t know what a “right relationship” is. I just know that neither of my dating experiences have been enjoyable.
Neither? As in two? Is that a joke? Try getting up into the 100s before you really know what to say, to complain about.

I am not attacking you to say this, but you are tragically inexperienced to have an opinion. I know, I know, opinions come out anyway, so be it. On with the show ...

It was like spending time with a stranger who maybe has issues (anger, etc) and if he doesn’t, he was an alien, someone who I can’t consider even my friend.
Indeed, as it should be. The central truth of dating is that the other person should:
a) Be attractive to you in a way that makes them both essential to your life and
b) Precisely NOT a friend.

The reason these things are true is because the person you WANT a relationship with in that sense IS not supposed to be JUST a friend.

Love is divided into 3 components and 3 only. It is Compassion (the empty love) which you should have for everything, Like, the friendship love, which defines proximal continuity in your life, and passion, the romantic love, which is both fiery and fragile and IT IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

I don’t understand this majority of people who prefer the company of their partner to friends, even in the early phases of relationship when they don’t know each other well, and consider their SO the most intimate person of their life.
Then you JUST do not understand.

Passion is a burning for the other. If you are not burning in their absence, you have no passion for them. You claim (like many) to be of sexual essence. You are probably not. You could not be and not understand passion's burn. The intensity of an sx person is very much at home with this burn. Such people default to burn. You do not. You seem openly social and mildly self-pres, much much less so intimate.

Now, it could be your lack of experience that causes you to not understand. Maybe when you first burn, you will admit it. You will become yourself. I hope for that for you.

I’m pretty sociable for an introvert. I enjoy being with my friends and in group hangouts- sometimes very much. I even managed an amateur little hiking group that left me lots of beautiful memories. I usually feel comfortable and accepted to a good extent among the mentioned friends/acquaintances. I also enjoy spending time alone.
Do you see? so and sp, NOT sx!

For example, if I want to visit my favourite sites of the city I definitely prefer to go there with someone I know appreciates it and I am happy with- it’s never my dates, whose behaviour easily disappoints me: not liking what I like, thinking about sexual advances everywhere, nagging about their lives, not sharing my feelings and not enjoying the moment.
For a REAL sx person, the MOMENT you mention is meaningless(or less meaningful) without the context of your partner merged with you. That is the DEFINITION of sx/intimate/sexual essence. You DO NOT understand this. Maybe you need a REAL relationship to understand.

All emotive states are part of passion. They flame into every circumstance. They do not abate. If they do, the passion is also abating. The storm is not easily navigated, but once you ride that storm, if you are sx/intimate, you will always want to ride it again. Passion is ... addicting.

They often seemed indifferent to these issues though, and just wanted to be with a girl, maybe along with some conventional dating rituals.
Incidentally, it seems your chosen partners are as lacking in their INTO-YOUNESS as you are in your INTO-THEMNESS. Both sides of that equation need to be addressed for passion. It is not on your radar yet. I hope it will be.

That said, while I’m not an often horny person, I’m not asexual/demi-sexual either: I can feel attracted to strangers and fantasize about doing sexy things with them. I have sexual fantasies every single day. I do want sex in my relationships- but admittedly, my experiences haven’t been so exciting as the society and media promised. Maybe boring for the most part.
Do not force it. But do let it happen. I can tell by your writings you are restraining it in you and others, passion. You fear it or you become angry in its presence. You have to restrain that instead. The fire is not getting started. It is fragile. Find the emotive wave of your partner and INCREASE it. Lean into it and onto it. Get mad with them about their oppressors. If you are attracted to the other, decide to release your attraction instead of restraining it. This requires trust and entails risk and both are GOOD. Passion is the riskiest form of love and there is no passion without equal amounts of risk and exposure.

I have no idea of what an “enjoyable” relationship can be. But I know that mine weren’t. I have to deal with my inferior Fe all the time while I am dating someone; going through mood swings, emotion rushes, unusual stress (I hardly ever am anxious otherwise) and losing my energy without a desirable result.
Does it have anything to do with my Myers Briggs/Enneagram?
Yes, MBTI is relevant. As an INTP you are clearly OVERTHINKING everything. You are releasing thought and not feeling. Passion is about feeling.

I also note the enneatype 5 and w4 is also significant. I am way more versed with the enneagram. You have to stop JUST observing and integrate YOURSELF, your emotions, into the emotive flow of the scenario. It's this risk and your tendency to observe only that is your downfall. Observation is not involvement although the 'observer effect' denies this at the ultimate level. That means you might just sit back and watch, and you are essentially waiting for someone else to make moves 1-27. That is far too passive.

Type 5 need to be forced to put their hands on their observational targets. Can you believe that one of the best things a 5 can do for this is massages? It sounds cheesy. You have to break the association with the past only. The past and your thoughts are all analysis, all necrophilia. The past, after all, is dead. It is unchangeable. Fear as the core emotion of the 5 is past tense. Observation is rooting in avoiding the present by staying at a safe remove from the action.

Further, your wing is no better. No wings are for the 5. Type 4 is dreamy and ethereal. It looks into the future with desire but again, avoids what is happening. The present tense is completely alien to you. You DO NOT exist there. You need to.

INJECT yourself into the action. Do it! You have to, or your pattern will continue. Be risky. Read people's manner towards you. Take action. You are missing the present tense, ANGER. Cause anger within yourself by choice.

Anger will spur you to act.

Be angry that you have not found passion. Be angry because you deserve passion also. Be angry because you have treated yourself unfairly, by only observing and not getting dirty. Be angry that anger is so hard for you. Be angry that you are analyzing the past constantly and dreaming about the future instead of acting to MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Good luck regardless.
 
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I believe you haven't been 'in love' yet, but give these relationships the same amount of energy as one would do in the ideal of love. I find a huge tell sign I am not in love but just in like with a person is if I am not just naturally feeling drawn to being with them in a way which gives me energy. Maybe compartmentalize practical vs intimate. I don't know I guess in that way if I am not feeling very naturally moved and inspired by the person I tend to have them as a background ornament (usually is mutual) vs shared lives. Don't share your life with someone when it feels like a chore. You can see them but I think it's good you don't stick all your eggs in one basket with reservations also it's good you want a life independent. I believe the happiest older couples I have seen who have the most ideal relationships have a huge level of intimacy and compromise and commitment, but they also have their own fulfilling lives.
 

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The only relationship that sucked the life out of me was with a lying, cheating flake. I'm going to reemphasize the need to find the right partner, one who you're totally relaxed with.
Ones that sucked the life out of me, included Jekyl/Hyde type behaviour, controlling behaviour, putdowns, humiliation. over-criticalness.
 
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