[Japhet]

Hi everyone, first time posting on this forum after a lot of lurking on the Chestnut subtype threads, my roommates pushed me to join after they got sick of me going on and on about my stress arrow theory.

I've never seen anybody put it this way before so I'm doing it now. Apologies if it actually has been done and I missed it - I am bad at watching or listening to videos or podcasts so any and all information bound up in those is pretty much inaccessible to me. I'm pulling heavily from the "stress point vs security point" interpretation of the arrows. Specifically, I've been trying to pin down what specifically triggers movement in one direction or the other, as most of the literature I've read has been unclear on the exact mechanism.

My theory is that:

Disintegration/"patching up" or stress movement happens when someone feels that their type (I like to call it hometype just to distinguish from general use of the word "type", as in "type 2") is no longer sufficient or "enough" for their current situation and the person is pulling from their stress arrow type to desperately patch it up. E.g. The self-centeredness of the 4 is getting in the way of helping someone else; the out-of-it-ness of the 9 is preventing them from seeing and reacting to threats; the 8 is forced into a position where they cannot control their surroundings or even their own life and so retreats inwards to understand what is happening to them.

Integration/"abandoning" or destress movement happens when someone deems their hometype no longer necessary for the current situation. Their hometype "no longer matters," in terms of its key fixations. Note this does not necessarily happen when someone is "secure" or "destressed" as in everything is going peachy keen. If anything the person is trying to abandon their hometype and if this abandonment is premature it can lead to problems down the road. For example, the 4 manipulated into not caring about their own pain naturally moves to the reformist others-focusedness of 1; the 5 thrust into a situation where analysis no longer any new results begins focusing on material consequences like an 8; the 1 trying to forget and avoid the rules they set for themself turns to the hedonism of 7.

Thoughts? Has someone already said this? I can elaborate and give more examples if needed. I have also been thinking a lot about how this might interact when subtypes are taken into account so if anyone has thoughts about that I'm game to hear them.

 

[Karkino]

Be careful with the idea of integration and disintergration as it was debunked a long time ago by Naranjo in the 90s. He was toying with this concept of having one line dedicated to growth and the other to stress, but he quickly scrapped it because he realized that we do use both lines in growth and stress. Unfortunately, someone misquote him and the myth persists to this day.

 

[enneathusiast]

I am bad at watching or listening to videos or podcasts so any and all information bound up in those is pretty much inaccessible to me.

That's a shame because a good way to bring the types alive is to listen to someone of given type describe their actual experience. IMO, If you don't have that then the types remain conceptual and don't actually describe people's reality but instead only the logic of your own mind.

The video below describes the movement from type 2 to type 8 for this person who identifies as a type 2. Watch from 1:32 to 2:46 where she describes stress as the trigger for the movement and how she responds to that stress.

 

[sweetrice]

I like your way of looking at it!
In light of what Karkino said, maybe you can develop your theory more to accommodate what he said.
In any case, please do keep posting any theories you may have

 

[Japhet]

Be careful with the idea of integration and disintergration as it was debunked a long time ago by Naranjo in the 90s. He was toying with this concept of having one line dedicated to growth and the other to stress, but he quickly scrapped it because he realized that we do use both lines in growth and stress. Unfortunately, someone misquote him and the myth persists to this day.

That makes sense to me, I'm mostly trying to pin down what the exact mechanism that causes each movement is because I've observed people move unilaterally in one direction over the other and it seems situationally influenced. But it makes total sense to me and is in line with what I have observed that the most literal meanings of "stress" and "growth" cause movement in both directions.

That's a shame because a good way to bring the types alive is to listen to someone of given type describe their actual experience. IMO, If you don't have that then the types remain conceptual and don't actually describe people's reality but instead only the logic of your own mind.

I agree completely! Which is why my hobby is giving my friends a crash course in enneagram, figuring out their types, and then interrogating them I also observe them as they react to life stressors or how they behave in different environments. The one downside of this is that I do not have access to information about types I don't personally know, particularly hometype 1s and hometype 8s. But I do like having the opportunity to contextualize the questions I ask of people and their answers.

Thank you for timestamping the video you linked (that helps a lot with getting me to watch things). The person in the video's description of her stress arrow movement reminds me of things I have observed in my 2 roommate. I may lurk in the 8 and 1 forums a bit more to get more information about those hometypes, but overall I truly cannot watch or listen to enneagram-related videos.