Personality Cafe banner

What's my wing?

  • 4w3

    Votes: 11 84.6%
  • 4w5

    Votes: 2 15.4%

  • Total voters
    13
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Sorry.

I am 100% sure I'm Enneagram Type 4 because I tend to get extra drawn to stuff that reminds me of identity/meaning/significance.

''Fours attempt to cultivate a Fantasy Self- an idealized self image which is built up primarily in their imaginations'' - That was written in an article. It is me, because whenever I feel like I failed a part of my past, I will go on a subtle but radical path towards achieving my Fantasy Self (along the way, there have been bumps of impatience, anger, guilt, paranoia, extreme withdrawal, extreme reaching out, etc) I'm a freaky four, I know.

I'm just wondering about which wing I most likely sound like......

The Four with a Three-Wing

Since people of this subtype have the ability to project a favorable image, they are able to conceal their real emotional condition more effectively than othe other subtype: others may not realize how vulnerable or emotionally troubled they may be.
Sounds like me O_O


The Four with a Five-Wing

Their creative ideas may also be somewhat unsual, possibly even surreal. Members of this subtype care little for communicating with those who cannot understand them. Rather, they are interested in expressing their inner vision, whether sublime or terrifying, bleak or lyrical.

Also sounds like me... O____O

Which one is most likely my wing?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,978 Posts
it seems to me like the 4w3 has trouble acknowledging their "ugly side" to others while 4w5 tend to express it freely. I'd say do a little introspecting because it's very hard to determine if someone is expressing themselves or projecting a desired image. Did you take the enneagram test yet? For me there's very little correlation between 4w3 and 4w5. My 5 "wing" is is usually equal or even tests higher than 4 (but im fairly certain im a 4 because i relate to the description so much more) and my 3 wing sits around 5th out of the 9.

for me, i have trouble deciding whether i'm a 4w5, 5w4, 4w6, or 5w6..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,999 Posts
it seems to me like the 4w3 has trouble acknowledging their "ugly side" to others while 4w5 tend to express it freely. I'd say do a little introspecting because it's very hard to determine if someone is expressing themselves or projecting a desired image. Did you take the enneagram test yet? For me there's very little correlation between 4w3 and 4w5. My 5 "wing" is is usually equal or even tests higher than 4 (but im fairly certain im a 4 because i relate to the description so much more) and my 3 wing sits around 5th out of the 9.

for me, i have trouble deciding whether i'm a 4w5, 5w4, 4w6, or 5w6..
There's no such thing as a 4w6. :tongue: The wings have to be the type to either side of the main type. So you have only 4w3 or 4w5, 5w4 or 5w6. You can have subwings, though. They're two over from your main type. So they go like this:
4s - 4w3(sw3w2), 4w3(sw5w4), 4w5(sw3w4), or 4w5(sw5w4)
5s - 5w4(sw4w3), 5w4(sw6w5), 5w6(sw4w5), or 5w6(sw6w7)

Apparently there's also subtypes, which are the same, except they can be one or two over.

To izzie,
I don't see a lot of 4w5 in you. It's there, but in a much lesser degree than 4w3 qualities. I could expand on that if you wanted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,447 Posts
4w5s are usually very introverted, and usually very serious in nature. Their wing makes them not reach out to people out of self-defense.

4w3s are introverted with a lively social sheen over them. They are very open about themselves, to the point of making strangers uncomfortable sometimes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I receive so many votes for 4w3.

What would make me sound a lot like 4w3? Feel free to express/expand.

Although I ''feel'' 4w5 explanations sound so much like me, it's almost creepy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
The Four's fear of exposing itself (in a sense, a fear of success) is the opposite of the Three's self-display and competitive desire for success. The Four's introverted self-consciousness contrasts with the Three's charm and other extroverted social skills.
I am more characterized by an obsessive compulsive need to explore instead of compete O__O I don't like competition, I think it's overrated.

Furthermore, I seem to be more drawn to being independently unconventional rather than caring about relating to enough people.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Don't know..it might be upbringing vs adult identity formation clash.

My mum is ESTJ, so she brought me up in the past with certain social related values and roles. However as I grow older, it seems I care more about being individualist enough even if it makes me appear strange.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,999 Posts
A 4w5 withdraws more, with the 5 wing. A 4w3, it seems to me, would be more likely to put on a bit of a show, which I think you do. A 4w3 would perhaps be more goal-oriented, and a 4w5 would be more open-ended, I think.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
A 4w5 withdraws more, with the 5 wing. A 4w3, it seems to me, would be more likely to put on a bit of a show, which I think you do. A 4w3 would perhaps be more goal-oriented, and a 4w5 would be more open-ended, I think.
Open ended in what way?
 

·
MOTM Dec 2011
Joined
·
8,651 Posts
I'd go with 4w3, between the two. You have an upbeat, inspirational vibe. You come across as warm & confident. 4w5s are colder, pricklier and more know-it-all-y than confident (if the distinction is made).

Being a 4 means you feel the need to be unique out of sense of shame that you have no worth or identity. Being a 3 means you feel the need to be successful out of a sense of worthlessness also. This ends up with someone who seeks to be successful, but on their own terms, & in a unique way. 4w3s are trend-setters, not followers. The "competitive" streak is the 3 wing making the 4 go after what they "envy" (as 4 is linked to envy); it is not competitive in the sense most people think of. You might see it as pursuing ideals in life, whereas the 4w5 will keep it to theory or concepts. This does not make 4w3s less intellectual, because as "aristocratic" types, they are very likely to embrace culture & intellectualism. 4w3s simply seek achievement, whereas 4w5 seeks knowledge; that is how each tries to create a unique identity. This can give an effortless quality to 4w3s, whereas 4w5s will seem more heavy-handed.

I wanted to emphasize the above because it's becoming clear to me on this board that people think 4w3 is somehow less desirable or shallower than 4w5 - it most certainly is not. Like MBTI type, no enneagram is better or worse. All of the enneagram types basically have unflattering emotional motivations, which is why the whole point of it is to balance them out.

------------
A profile I had saved (can't find the source, sorry). It's not the best, IMO, but it gives an overview of each.

4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desirable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desirable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.

Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".


4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.

4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.

Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Thanks, OrangeAppled. Okay now I'm a bit confused because... :crazy :crazy: sorry if this doesn't make sense, both sounds like me!! :confused: :confused:

------------
A profile I had saved (can't find the source, sorry). It's not the best, IMO, but it gives an overview of each.

4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desirable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desirable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.

4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.
Okay this might explain why sometimes I feel that I have a dual personality. When I'm confident, I can suddenly be extremely confident. When I'm self conscious, I can suddenly be extremely self conscious. I assert and glorify myself as much as I put myself down and criticize myself. ''While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.'' Bloody hell, this might be me in a nutshell.

Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".
Yeah I have something that is core and stays the same within me even underneath all the changes. I try hard to protect it. That's why I always say I live for my values.



4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.
However, I can also be completely bizarre and eclectic. Sometimes if I feel like people won't get what I want them to get out of interacting with me, or they won't understand me in a way that I want to be understood, I can easily dismiss their thoughts. I do have that ''this is me so deal with it'' attitude at times.

4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.

Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.

Whenever I feel really sad, I do hold my head high at never ''selling myself out'' lol

Maybe I have a disorder that hasn't been written down yet :dry:
 

·
MOTM Dec 2011
Joined
·
8,651 Posts
What you seem to associate with 4w5s is more of a 4 thing in general. The conflict you have actually is much more 4w3 than 4w5. A 4 is always going to choose their own "unique" image over acceptance if acceptance means giving up the image. The 3 wing just makes the 4 more aware of it. The 5 wing makes a 4 somewhat oblivious, so there's less internal conflict of how they come across; it's not even on the table.

Sometimes if I feel like people won't get what I want them to get out of interacting with me, or they won't understand me in a way that I want to be understood, I can easily dismiss their thoughts.
The bolded is quite 4w3. You want to control how people see you & have some awareness of how you're being perceived.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Raichan

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
The bolded is quite 4w3. You want to control how people see you & have some awareness of how you're being perceived.

Hmm to some extent yes, but I don't make it a priority.

At some point I have a 'take it or leave it' mentality.

I'm still reflecting on this though. Sorry if I'm hard to catch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,993 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
My best friend confirmed with me that I'm 4w5

So I've decided that I'm a

Four with a Five-Wing :laughing:

Reason: she doesn't see that I'm ever to pull off a seemingly popular, extroverted show.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,999 Posts
Alright, you can think you are a 4w5 if you want, contrary to the opinion of 85% of the forum population. :laughing:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,461 Posts
I think it's impossible for us to gauge it as (as you've mentioned) the izzie on perc and the izzie you show to the people in your "real" life is vastly different... asking your best friend was a good idea.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top