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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, so I posted a thread in the INTP forum about the aesthetic movement looking very forward to talking about it and...well, it wasn't very popular.:wink: I think people read the title and misunderstood what it was about. I have long been drawn to it and wanted to see if INTP's agreed. I wanted to ask people of my own type because I have long been fascinated by the fact my decisions and worldview revolve around logic, yet I hold my own feelings in worshipful adoration...not values per se, but the actual sensations and the reasons they resonate...what they say about life. I find conversations about interpersonal relationships wearisome, but talk to me about art and I could blab on about my feelings forever, although I used to be a bit embarassed by them. One of my major motivations in life is attaining an ultimate state of profound feeling, not just happiness but the whole gamut, including feelings like bittersweetness. But as much as I love doing it in real time, I can get uncomfortable, so I turn to art (which is safe), which has to overcompensate. So I was drawn to Romanticism. There, drowning in the bliss that is the epitome of emotionally based art, I get to live out my emotional fantasies to the fullest, something my weak command of F has denied me recently in life.:sad: That's my theory at least.

So then I wondered if more people would be interested in having a conversation about it over here. You guys are like the values-based versions of me, and I wondered whether or not your tastes were similar because you are Feelers or whether your better command of Feeling meant you thought this stuff was immature, mawkish, and silly. I can say I do relate to that strong desire to immerse myself in feelings that a lot of you are supposed to have. IMO, I really don't see what else art is supposed to be.

Maybe if you know INTP's you could help me out a little??? Obviously Romanticism is not exactly a topic that commonly comes up around the dinner table but surely they must talk about art with you...a lot of us really are fluffy jellymuffins under the cold armor of Ti, but I don't know whether or not most INTP's have this emotionally immersive ideal...most do not claim to but my INTP brother has similar views so I wondered whether or not they just don't admit it. It does seem to contradict our tendency to detach, but on the other hand its idealistic (in the broad sense of the term) nature would naturally appeal to us.

Perhaps I'm intellectualizing this too much???

Love to know what you guys think.:happy:
 

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The Romanticist movement of the 1700/1800s & its ideals seems pretty popular with NFs in general. There have been several successful threads where discussion of it has taken place here.

I like many of the sentiments behind Romanticism also. I don't find it mushy gushy at all, which is how I DO view a lot of modern "romantic" things. True romanticism to me is spontaneous, passionate expressions of feelings & emotions. It's NOT contrived or playing to cliches. I think it can be a little raw, a bit rough around the edges. It celebrates what is magical, emotional, irrational - the chaotic side of nature & people. It doesn't need to make "sense" of everything. While I like to analyze things, I think it's important to realize that not everything can be explained with black & white logic. It loses meaning to reduce it to that level; emotions exist to add nuance of meaning. I think the Romanticist takes a holistic approach, seeking to uphold the purity & mystery of things like love and nature, knowing they cannot be fully explained by anything as cold as science.
 

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I don't dig Romanticism at all. I always thought it was pretentious, artificial, deindividualizing, and stuck in binary oppositions, conventional morality and courtship, etc. Plus, I associate it with my ex, who was into that stuff. I am a romantic, but in a personalized, modern, nontraditional way.
 

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I don't really know much about romanticism, but I always think that to get the best experiences with art, we'd need to approach it from a place of values and feelings.

You don't have to intellectualize every single personal experience to understand it. Nor should you feel even the least bit insecure about it.
 

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I feel the same way about art- it's a safe place to go and feel things. I don't think you're over-intellecutalizing it one bit!

Romantic painters are lovely! But--- I've always been more drawn to the Impressionists and Post- Impressionists, myself. Degas, Monet, Cassat, Van Gogh. 'avnme'apvmoa'n'oanva'. In neglecting some of the details, they capture the essence of their subjects' beauty. They're subtle and perfect, and I go a little weak in the knees just thinking about them. Especially how PERSONAL it was to them.You look at an impressionist painting and you get to feel the way that the painter felt the world. It's just amazing.

However, I LOVE romantic music. Chopin most of all! Here's a video--- Rachmaninoff on Chopin. I just fall apart. It's like it's all about to come tumbling out of him, and he's trying like hell to keep it inside, but it just keeps leaking through his fingers. He's so Amazing...
Maurizio Pollini does a version of this song that is just as wonderful. You can hear him breathing on the recording. *SIGH*
 

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I am a big fan of the romantics! Charles Baudelaire, Mihai Eminescu, Frederick Richard Lee, J.M.W. Turner and on and on and on. I consider the era the best time for art!
 

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I love romaticism. My art tutor used to get annoyed at me because I couldn't stand abstract art and he said I should be more "open minded"...well I have a different taste so what?

In particuler I love: J.M.W. Turner :happy:
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The Romanticist movement of the 1700/1800s & its ideals seems pretty popular with NFs in general. There have been several successful threads where discussion of it has taken place here.

I like many of the sentiments behind Romanticism also. I don't find it mushy gushy at all, which is how I DO view a lot of modern "romantic" things. True romanticism to me is spontaneous, passionate expressions of feelings & emotions. It's NOT contrived or playing to cliches. I think it can be a little raw, a bit rough around the edges. It celebrates what is magical, emotional, irrational - the chaotic side of nature & people. It doesn't need to make "sense" of everything. While I like to analyze things, I think it's important to realize that not everything can be explained with black & white logic. It loses meaning to reduce it to that level; emotions exist to add nuance of meaning. I think the Romanticist takes a holistic approach, seeking to uphold the purity & mystery of things like love and nature, knowing they cannot be fully explained by anything as cold as science.
This sums up what I think about it pretty much perfectly, OrangeAppled.:happy: I think the holistic, mysterious nature of Romanticism is a breath of fresh air in this calculating, skeptical and cynical world. It assures me I don't have to justify these things I believe in and feel...they just are, and it is beautiful.

The last paragraph was interesting, because Einstein actually believed that feelings of mystery and wonder were the true source of science; he even said that anyone who closed their eyes to them was "as good as dead". I'm not that interested in science myself, but I think the quote really jumped out at me because it shows that nothing (well, except economics perhaps:tongue:) needs to be cold or reductionistic if you don't allow it to be.
 

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Nevermore, I am not actually familiar with Romanticism and art periods in particular, just art in general...so my response is about general art and feelings.

I love visual art very much, though not quite as much as music. Let me explain things as best as I can this way: As an INFP and a feeler, my strong motivation is to find a way to understand my feelings and find validation for them. Expression is one way to do this. It puts the energy of those feelings into perceivable forms. It also makes me vulnerable, because it is heavily or loosely encoded with my most personal sentiments. Another way of understanding feelings is to observe the feelings of others. One way to do this is through observing other's expressions. Through my own expressions and other's expressions, a picture of what feelings are and what purpose they serve begins to form.

Understanding feelings through art and musical expression is ALL about relationships, or to use a better INTP term, interconnectedness. When an art piece is made, it is a product of choices the artist made. For most artists, those choices were made through feelings. This is one reason, I, as an INFP, like art that is impressionistic, or created through mental imagery, not just art that is meant to exactly replicate a scene in front of the artist, because that way, the feelings have more ability to exhibit themselves on the canvas.

Deciphering Feelings in Art:

Let me give an example of how one can learn to decipher an artist's feelings in art. Say that an artist decides to draw a canoe tied to a dock all from his or her mind. You can learn to understand the artist's life perspective and feelings just by observing the interrelationships within the painting. Is the dock strong, or old and rickety? How long or tight is the rope on the canoe? Is the water smooth or choppy? What shape is the canoe? Is the canoe near the end of the dock, or close to shore? Reflections in the water? Is it a lake or river, and what surrounds it? To understand the importance of these elements, you consider, "What do these elements represent?"

Now, here is how one could decipher those elements:

In this art piece, the artist desires to imprint his or her feelings in a visual form, so one could ask, "What object is the artist identifying themself with, if anything?" In this case, the canoe would be the object the artist would likely identify with, because it represents something a person travels in. Working with this perspective, you then ask, "How do the rest of the objects and their qualities relate to this object of self?" The waters, then, are symbolic of life, what the canoe travels in.

The dock - The dock here is a symbol of transition...transition from the safety of solid ground to water, and in reality, perhaps representing the transition of a person in life from the comfort of familiarity to adulthood and immaturity - growth. The transition depends on the artist and their experiences. If the dock is worn and rickety, it symbolizes the apprehension or distrust in this life transition, some level of fear. If it's strong, it symbolizes a confidence and decisiveness in moving forward.

The rope - The rope symbolizes the relationship of the person to the transition. If the rope is drawn as being tight, it symbolizes a feeling of pressure or fear in the transition. The person is or has been fighting against it. If it is loose, it symbolizes an acceptance of this transition.

Canoe close to shore? - Depending on whether the canoe is close to shore, or at the end of the dock, it symbolizes where the person is at in their transition (or if it communicates a past transition, it signifies what time of the transition the focus is on). If the canoe is close to shore, at the start of the dock, it shows a desire to hold back and find safety and security. If the canoe is near the end of the dock it symbolizes progress has been made...freedom of open waters are near.

Nature of the Water - Depending on the time context, the water symbolizes what the person hopes for in life, fears is ahead, is going through, or went through. Quite apparently, smooth water represents peace, contentment, safety. Rough water represents difficulty or fear. If there is effort spent on making a reflection of light and objects in the water, it symbolizes a possible desire for symettry and harmony in life - to take in and give back harmoniously. A jagged, distorted reflection may symbolize a difficulty in doing so. If the body of water is a small lake or pond, this may symbolize the artist's desire to live in their own world, and isolate to some extent. If it's a large lake, there is a desire to expand in life, but still live within their own world. If it is a river, it communicates a desire for or a decision to have or an expectation of new experiences, to go to new territory.

Animate Organisms - Is there any inclusion of other animate organisms, or any focus on them? Birds in the air, a duck in the water, deer, or a prominent tree or group of trees? These symbolize relationships with others. If there is an exclusion of creatures and no dominant organisms, it symbolizes isolation, or a desire to escape, or distrust of people. If there are other organisms, one can see what they are, and how they are featured to determine any significance.

Canoe Appearance - How the canoe appears may be a self-projection. Is it worn-out and unattractive? Is it stylish with a bright color? Angular with a very functional appearance? LEAKING??

Style - Obviously the style of art, the brush or pencil strokes, and how different physical elements are treated is a reflection of the artist's intentions. I don't have the energy to get into that.

I have stated these interpretations in wording that sounds certain, but only to avoid vagueness. Interpretation is about the context and interrelationships. What if the canoe is on a tight rope close to shore (apprehension/desire for security), even though the water is calm? This combination could mean that the artist desires or believes there can be peace in the future, but feels tied to his or her past. It's all about putting the pieces together how they fit best, kind of like how most people start a puzzle by doing the edge pieces to get it started, and then putting together pieces from the easier objects in the puzzle, and then the remaining left-over pieces are easier to deal with. I feel it is the same way in interpreting an artist's intentions or emotions in art, or one's own art.

Interpreting the Feelings

Feelings leave their fingerprints on every art piece, no matter how literal the person was in their artwork. Their intentions leap from the canvas, and their view of the world speaks from the brush strokes. Since you are INTP and you understand things through analysis, you can possibly learn to understand more about yours and others feelings with this aforestated method of recognizing how things interconnect. But with feelings, because they are not something directly and logically translateable, you must think in symbols and representations many times. In this way, you can implement the ability to make logical connections while at the same time recognizing feelings and intentions that are there.

Anyway, that's how I see it. Some people may not like how analytically I treat the idea of viewing art, but I do so particularly to cater to INTP thinking. I use a combination of analysis and just letting images create their own effect without questioning them. Because I am an INFP, and constantly aware of feelings, I may look at a piece of art and its as if the artist's feelings and intentions hit me like a wave, because my subconscious mind recognizes the sentiments I relate to on an emotional level. At other times, though, I want to dig deeper, so I analyze, or I don't understand the intentions, so I analyze.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for the epic reply:happy:. I did actually mean the arts in general: there are also schools of Romantic Music and Romantic Literature.

First off, I really want to thank you for sharing all that with me.:happy: I thought it was quite sweet that you wanted to "help a Thinker understand art", but you have a misconception of what being a Thinker is. I am actually very aware of my feelings; that is why I am drawn to art. The difference of being a Thinker and a Feeler isn't tending to be unaware of feelings, it is making decisions based on maintaining social equilibrium (Fe) or personal values (Fi) vs. pragmatism and efficiency (Te) and pure logic (Ti). People have actually been moved by the music and stories I have written, sometimes quite deeply in fact (I am quite rueful of the fact I can't draw or paint, though dabble in it sometimes for fun), so even if I'm not Mozart or Shakespeare, I can apparently express them eloquently as well; at least at times. And both my music and my stories are filled with symbolism...it's actually an N (abstract) thing, not an F thing. My talent for interpreting symbols in Literature won me the English award, actually, and I almost majored in the subject.

But I did really appreciate your analysis of the canoe! My great grandfather was an artist who suffered mustard gas in the First World War, married a socially ostracized woman (because she was illegitimate) and had to move to the Canadian wilderness to support himself. He was in a constant state of melancholy, and this really comes through in his art. I still have several of his paintings. Taking a more analytical approach to them might be a better way to understand him.

PS. I agree with you about liking impressionistic art; it's also a favorite school of mine!
 

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Thanks for the epic reply:happy:. I did actually mean the arts in general: there are also schools of Romantic Music and Romantic Literature.

First off, I really want to thank you for sharing all that with me.:happy: I thought it was quite sweet that you wanted to "help a Thinker understand art", but you have a misconception of what being a Thinker is. I am actually very aware of my feelings; that is why I am drawn to art. The difference of being a Thinker and a Feeler isn't tending to be unaware of feelings, it is making decisions based on maintaining social equilibrium (Fe) or personal values (Fi) vs. pragmatism and efficiency (Te) and pure logic (Ti). People have actually been moved by the music and stories I have written, sometimes quite deeply in fact (I am quite rueful of the fact I can't draw or paint, though dabble in it sometimes for fun), so even if I'm not Mozart or Shakespeare, I can apparently express them eloquently as well; at least at times. And both my music and my stories are filled with symbolism...it's actually an N (abstract) thing, not an F thing. My talent for interpreting symbols in Literature won me the English award, actually, and I almost majored in the subject.

But I did really appreciate your analysis of the canoe! My great grandfather was an artist who suffered mustard gas in the First World War, married a socially ostracized woman (because she was illegitimate) and had to move to the Canadian wilderness to support himself. He was in a constant state of melancholy, and this really comes through in his art. I still have several of his paintings. Taking a more analytical approach to them might be a better way to understand him.

PS. I agree with you about liking impressionistic art; it's also a favorite school of mine!
You're welcome. I hadn't realized that I had written things in such a way to sound like symbols were a Feeling thing. What I meant was that the only way feelings can be expressed or understood in art is through symbols and representations, because feelings themselves are intangible. I understand that using symbols is related to N, but for someone with dominant Ti, the purpose of the symbols is to reach or communicate objective information, a process that per se does not help bring experience and understanding to the emotional side of the art. That is why I tried to use a bridge that connects symbolic analysis with emotional expression. The more emotional aspects of an art piece that are ascertained, the greater likelihood that the emotional response will be triggered and a union of art and self occurs.

So my main drive was about using an analytical and symbolic approach that an INTP is already familiar with, but with a different objective, one that is intangible and subjective and locked within the symbolism...searching for the feelings. This seems to come fairly naturally to you, though. From my interactions with INTPs, most of them avoid the topic of feelings, and don't communicate the same level of emotional involvement as you do, hence why your topic didn't hit a home run in the INTP forum. You probably exhibit more F than other INTPs I've come across. Have you noticed the same? In particular, your motives in the art world seem fairly distant from what I understand from other INTPs. I am not attempting to devalidate your type, but I thought that the aberrations were mention-worthy.

I also am very fascinated with symbolism, so it's interesting to hear what you shared. Could you elaborate on the Literature symbols award, and what was involved with that?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Oh, I wish I could say I had an interesting story behind the symbolism thing, but all I meant to say there was that there was a lot of symbolic interpretation in an English Literature course I once took, for which I won an award as the highest achiever amongst the 400-or-so people in my class. Nothing special.:sad: I was just establishing that I was already well versed at interpreting symbols in art and had proven I was competent at it, although you seem even more fascinated by it than I am.:happy:

I don't know whether or not I "exhibit more F" per se, but I would say my world-view is pervaded by common Feeler ideals to a much greater extent than the average INTP. Sadly, this even included negative predudices, like a tendency to scorn the "pedestrian how" in favour of the "lofty why". Especially before I found out about MBTI. But honestly...it's hard to resist:blushed:. Logic is so...dry. I think immersing oneself in deep emotions is a very beautiful experience, so why not pursue it? I found that out at a very young age, and also discovered it is often heightened when experiencing them through art. Being an N, I also had the desire to be creative, and was drawn to others' creative work. So naturally, I was drawn towards the arts...most INTP's are actually artistic to a certain degree, but what set me apart was considering emotional immersion the be-all and end-all of art, not merely an expression of creativity.

So no, I don't take it as a devalidation. I did type myself as an INFP at first first for obvious reasons, and I guess you could kind of say I'm a bit of a wannabe, but after reading about Ti, I suddenly realized I could relate to discerning minute shades of meaning and the compulsion to classify them. And I knew I was an Ne user, so I was postive I wasn't INFJ. I'm almost certain of my type now, and increasingly comfortable in it.:happy: But I have to admit I shudder whenever read about that detachment stuff...
 
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