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Discussion Starter #1
I would like to know the essential difference between Ne and Se functions. For a predominant P (of any type) these are the favourite mode of activity-scheduling (for want of a better term). I have however yet to see an explanation of these that directly compares them, which would be helpful, particularly as I don’t think the descriptions of Ne really capture the 'essence' of what it's about. I have however made some assumptions about Se and Ne based on what I think they are actually about, and wondered if anyone could give their opinion.

They appear to be basically about the nature and use of impulsive energies, by which I mean the desire to act ‘in the moment’, go with the flow etc.

Se appears to be about following impulsive energies that have a mainly physical source, with drivers and cues strongly connected to the physical, concrete world).

Based on this, the only logical deduction I can therefore arrive at (and please tell me if you think I’m wrong about Se), is that Ne is about following impulsive energies that are grounded mainly in the NON-physical sphere, with drivers and cues strongly connected to the abstract world of the mind. I hesitate to use the word 'intuition', as not everyone seems to define it the same way (if it's Myers-Briggs very limited definition in "Gifts Differing", then the definition of Se would have to be expanded), but if 'intuition' could be used in it's most loose sense of the word, then that would probably suffice. Whatever Ne is defined as however, it must contain all impulsive energies that DON’T fit into the Se model. Otherwise, you may be in a situation where some people's actions don’t fit into either model, and fluke the system.

The only trouble is, what if you don’t know where the impulsive energy came from (I am often not aware of why I felt like doing such and such)? In defining types, does it suffice to just look at the personality descriptions (which, incidentally, if I were going purely on, would have probably narrowed myself to INFP by now)?
 

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I've written about Ne/Se before so I'm just going to copy and paste some of my previous posts, and see if you can agree/understand them:

Ne is all about "what if's?", thinking about different possibilities simultaneously, going off on tangents, and picking up clues with meaning and putting them into diff. contexts. Therefore they can come up with multiple scenarios, and one of them is bound to be right (well sometimes).
Se also picks up clues but in a more literal sense and apply them to current situations. Eventually they can create a picture by piecing together the clues they infer enabling them to figure out spoilers.

Ne starts with the big vague picture (or two), and applies different concepts and details until they've figured is out, while Se starts with picking up the details and piecing them together like a puzzle until they've found the big picture.
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You can also make an analogy of INTP v ISTP to deductive v inductive reasoning.
An INTP uses deductive, by starting with a general conclusion by perceiving patterns in the physical world then finds the facts to support that conclusion. Planning out multiple scenarios and gathers from their external world evidence to support one (or more) of their plans eliminating and creating new ones during the process. They start with the framework(s) and then input the evidence to see if it supports it or not.
An ISTP on the other hand starts small, by gathering the evidence first in the physical world, then builds upon each new piece of information until they can finally put together the big picture. They start with the facts then move to a general conclusion. ISTP's look for the pattern after gathering the facts, so that they are basically using concrete evidence to support a theory. An INTP on the other hand uses theory to support concrete evidence.

And then there is also this nifty link: How to tell iNtuiting from extraverted Sensing | Interstrength Associates
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Ne starts with the big vague picture (or two), and applies different concepts and details until they've figured is out, while Se starts with picking up the details and piecing them together like a puzzle until they've found the big picture.

........

An INTP uses deductive, by starting with a general conclusion by perceiving patterns in the physical world then finds the facts to support that conclusion. Planning out multiple scenarios and gathers from their external world evidence to support one (or more) of their plans eliminating and creating new ones during the process. They start with the framework(s) and then input the evidence to see if it supports it or not.
An ISTP on the other hand starts small, by gathering the evidence first in the physical world, then builds upon each new piece of information until they can finally put together the big picture. They start with the facts then move to a general conclusion. ISTP's look for the pattern after gathering the facts, so that they are basically using concrete evidence to support a theory. An INTP on the other hand uses theory to support concrete evidence.
Interesting. I'm far more interested in the workings of the abstract/hidden (e.g. the mind, theoretical physics) than the workings of the directly observable, but I don't see anything in there to suggest that an ISTP cannot be interested in abstract processes, which it might be assumed they would not be interested in. Of course, the very fact that there are ISTPs like yourself interested in personality theory suggests otherwise. I don't think I'm ISTP however, if indeed anything at all:unsure:. I do appear to have to build the big picture over time.

I don't have a problem with identifying as an S-type, so long as it is possible for an S-type to prefer the imagined, unseen and abstract to present 'reality', it's just that the impression given is that such a preference is exclusive to Ns.
 

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S types can be interested in abstract matters and theories - most theories that denounce this are more of a general picture. What matters is why an S type enjoys abstract matters; I'd say that determines further than just a generalization of 'Ss don't like abstract things' and 'Ns are always up in the clouds and aren't practical'.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
S types can be interested in abstract matters and theories - most theories that denounce this are more of a general picture. What matters is why an S type enjoys abstract matters; I'd say that determines further than just a generalization of 'Ss don't like abstract things' and 'Ns are always up in the clouds and aren't practical'.
Would you be able to give any examples of S types enjoying abstractions which wouldn't be 'out of type', and vice-versa?

I can see that finding it a challenge to see underlying patterns and abstractions is not the same as not being interested in or even fascinated by them. I myself find invisible processes and imaginative possibilities utterly riveting, but am willing to admit it if my intuition isn't good enough or my imagination not far-reaching enough to cut it as a fully-fledged N.

In the absence of any further enlightenments, I think I'll continue to refrain from picking a single type and stick with the Jekyll and Hyde thing (but a less erm, 'sinister' version:unsure:).
 

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I don't have a problem with identifying as an S-type, so long as it is possible for an S-type to prefer the imagined, unseen and abstract to present 'reality', it's just that the impression given is that such a preference is exclusive to Ns.
We don't typically enjoy abstractions and the imagined. We can talk about it and find it interesting if and only if it is something that we are interested in. I am interested in personality theories because it has made a measurable difference in my life.

I can think in abstract but I prefer to think in the present. It's possible ISTPs enjoy abstract theories because they have dominant Ti and not Se. I also expect that some on this site are actual weak sensors in general and can see things from both sides. Personally abstracts hurt my brain and I can't be bothered with them. This isn't to say I lack intelligence or the ability to understand them, I just don't want to. If I can't find a practical everyday use for them I don't waste time thinking about it. I have better things to do with my time.

If there are some ESTPs on this site that enjoy pondering Philosophy and Quantum Physics then I question their typing :wink:


Dichotomy, you are screaming intuition. This is just my opinion but I think you can drop the search for that letter. Determine if you are more comfortable with Ni or Ne and work from there.
 

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Extraverted perception

If we treat Ne and Se as black boxes, such that we see only how they behave, and not why, Ne and Se are, in most cases, indistinguishable. Same behaviour triggered by different internal processes.

The analogy that says (in computing metaphor) that Ne is a 'Top Down' and Se a 'Bottom Up' process, I can identify with. Another analogy I like is that Se perceives what is there and Ne perceives what is not there. So Se gets details and actual sensory data, colours, temperatures, sounds, smells. Ne gets patterns, trends, relationships and patterns, from the same data.

For INFPs there is (I believe) an additional issue. Ne and Fi are virtually impossible to tell apart, because Fi is non-verbal, subjective judgement, and these Fi judgements feel as if they arise instantaneously to the sense data carrying the information that spawned them.

Intuitives (that's all N's, of any type), taken together, comprise about 12% of the population. Which means the other 88% of the population are S types. Given that a huge percentage of this 88% of the population are religious, quite obviously there is nothing at all preventing S types from having abstract, spiritual, faith based perceptions.

Maybe the capacity to have abstract perceptions is an emergent property of more than just the components MBTI makes available.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
We don't typically enjoy abstractions and the imagined. We can talk about it and find it interesting if and only if it is something that we are interested in. I am interested in personality theories because it has made a measurable difference in my life.

I can think in abstract but I prefer to think in the present. It's possible ISTPs enjoy abstract theories because they have dominant Ti and not Se. I also expect that some on this site are actual weak sensors in general and can see things from both sides. Personally abstracts hurt my brain and I can't be bothered with them. This isn't to say I lack intelligence or the ability to understand them, I just don't want to. If I can't find a practical everyday use for them I don't waste time thinking about it. I have better things to do with my time.

If there are some ESTPs on this site that enjoy pondering Philosophy and Quantum Physics then I question their typing :wink:

Dichotomy, you are screaming intuition. This is just my opinion but I think you can drop the search for that letter. Determine if you are more comfortable with Ni or Ne and work from there.
I value your opinion, especially as you are SP. Being honest, I'm worried about sticking myself in an 'intellectual' category, given my insecurities, which are not inconsiderable, and don't want to disappoint myself. Not saying that's a good reason though.

I find mental functions very difficult to observe in myself - behaviour is much easier to gage, but even here, the contradictions are ominous. For example, I love creating order and structure, and am exceedingly tidy, but dislike the inflexibility of following routines and schedules (so usually don't, even when this makes me uncomfortable). So there is a continual J/P 'tension'.

Maybe the capacity to have abstract perceptions is an emergent property of more than just the components MBTI makes available.
Maybe the point then is how interested and preoccupied you are with abstract perceptions, rather than your level of capacity to perceive them (not reaching a conclusion here, just speculating).
 

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I value your opinion, especially as you are SP. Being honest, I'm worried about sticking myself in an 'intellectual' category, given my insecurities, which are not inconsiderable, and don't want to disappoint myself. Not saying that's a good reason though.

I find mental functions very difficult to observe in myself - behaviour is much easier to gage, but even here, the contradictions are ominous. For example, I love creating order and structure, and am exceedingly tidy, but dislike the inflexibility of following routines and schedules (so usually don't, even when this makes me uncomfortable). So there is a continual J/P 'tension'.



Maybe the point then is how interested and preoccupied you are with abstract perceptions, rather than your level of capacity to perceive them (not reaching a conclusion here, just speculating).
So you are skipping INTJ (or NT in general) because you don't want to label your self as an intellectual? Maybe you miss the point, but being NT doesn't make you smart. All it does is give you more of a drive to learn the theoretical. You sound like a total J from that description you just gave. From this discussion I would never say you were INFP. You haven't been whimsical enough for that.
 

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ok, so here it goes:

Se is sensorial, it walks into a meeting location and is automatically aware of spatial conditions and detailed traits. How many woman are there, how far away from each other and himself, how are they grouped and how large the groups are, what they are wearing and how what they are wearing directly affects the senses of their sorroundings crowds.

Se is impulsive, it notices the music and the way people is enjoying themselves and feels pumped up toward that received data, adapting to it immediately, sees the girl he wants and approaches almost instantly.

Se is engaging, perceives activity in the room and is abruptly absorbed by the available activities it can get involved with.

Se is assertive, it reacts to the available options, discriminates quickly and looks for immediate results of action. Acts and reacts almost effortlessly, adapting to the results of the evidence gathered. So it knows how much it can get away with.

Se is impactful, simply by the act of presence people notice them. It is skillful to act in a way people get impressed by, surpassing expectations.
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Ne looks for meaning, reads how interaction is developing and notices convergence, and tendencies. It is skillful at expressing and understanding figuratively and creatively, experiencing a high level of credibility when making assumptions.

Ne is imaginative, it brainstorms, floating various potential ideas at the same time, for the sake of innovating and having fun. Plays with ideas, words and multiple meaning, flirtation is much more sublime.
It pays attention to the subconscious and values anything emerging from that process finding incredible potential in everything. It pursues many ideas which reach many conclusions and then it mixes it all, to make it much more random and entertaining for self.

Ne is inferential, changes perspective dynamically, putting self in any given situation regardless of context. Avoids immediate interpretation, while waiting for the process to reveal multiple meanings. It manages to instantly merge into imaginative scenarios and come back to reflect results of doing so.

Ne is catalyzing, it understands situations and people by proyecting them to lots possible situations in its mind. It is suggestive; it uses indirect speech and looks for matching their thoughts with those of the surrounding. By doing so it emerges as a leader redirecting the groups will towards something new and innovative.
 

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According to this site :

Se

  • Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result.
  • We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context.
  • An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention.
  • Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment.
  • A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.

Ne

  • Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality.
  • Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand.
  • Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking.
  • Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.


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Ne and Se are both perceptive (irrational based on Jung) functions that take in information. They can only be used in the present tense (vs. Ni=future/Si=past) and will only work when in action. The difference between the two is that Ne looks for possibilities to consider and Se looks for actual opportunities.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
So you are skipping INTJ (or NT in general) because you don't want to label your self as an intellectual? Maybe you miss the point, but being NT doesn't make you smart. All it does is give you more of a drive to learn the theoretical. You sound like a total J from that description you just gave. From this discussion I would never say you were INFP. You haven't been whimsical enough for that.
Getting an INTJ vibe are you? The funny thing is, the first couple of times I did a test (a free one, but with 100 or so questions, and 5 response options), INTJ was the result. I was unsure because INTJs are described as things like 'confident' and 'disciplined'.
 

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Getting an INTJ vibe are you? The funny thing is, the first couple of times I did a test (a free one, but with 100 or so questions, and 5 response options), INTJ was the result. I was unsure because INTJs are described as things like 'confident' and 'disciplined'.
It's just a stereotype. Nobody can be all the stereotypes unless you are 100% in every letter (even then I doubt it). I do lots of things out of character for my type. Labeling shouldn't change who you are or how you act. It's good as it helps you when you might have problems.
 

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SP versus N

Somewhere I read that some SPs (guess due to Se) often score as Ns on several online tests since in interviews they said they also refer to "big picuture thinking" rather than looking for details (rather Si, is that??). However, somewhere I read that the difference between the SPs and Ns is that N sees the pattern FIRST and Se has to LOOK for patterns after having seen details, looks for the patterns behind the details which could also be meant by "interested in the big picture". I'm not sure whether I get this right....... but.... somehow I find it really really hard to tell the difference between Ne (or N in general) and Se at this point....... I myself am sure of being an N, yet, when I observe myself I think I'm also rather LOOKING for the pattern....... I find the S and N difference really easy to tell when it comes to people using Si....I have all my friends and family members identified correctly as SJs......but I just can't tell who is SP and who is some kind of N...... do you have any ideas?

In addition, and this is not meant as an offence, since some of my closest friends are SJs, is it possible to say that SPs are often more "open-minded" and willing to consider all kinds of different opinions? intersted in looking at things from different perspectives? is this related to P? I find some of the SJs I know, eg my father, to be really rigid.....it's just hard for me to see how someone is not even willing to try to look at things from a different perspective and to take into consideration that there is more than ONE TRUTH. I do not mean to offend anyone, since there are of course a lot of very open-minded SJs, I'm sure......
 

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Give me a spell to think on this one...

Alright, here it is: an SP is going to be heavily interested in action. An N is oftentimes going to be heavily interested in the idea. If you don't mind looking a bit rediculous, you could try talking theories and abstracts with people. The SP's will invariably try to find a way out, and the N's will often be taken in. Another way to separate SP's from N's is the boredom freshold. SP's will tend to get bored very quickly and will look for activities. N's, however, tned not to get bored so quickly, and may be willing to stick with an uninteresting activity for longer periods of time.

Adressing your second paragraph: I beleive that SP's really do not conisider different opinions that much. They are just not as bothered by them. Many SP's are very headstrong and hedonistic, and so will take for their own gain at the expense of others, or without thinking of the consequences. I do not beleive that this is related to P, as INTJ's look at things from many perspectives before find that which they beleive to be the best. And yes, there are open-minded SJ's. My mom is one of them. My brother is definitely the rigid SJ.
 

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interesting post. i think you can tel the difference when someone is very high on the N or S scale. For instance i'm pretty low on the N so although I like big pig picture thinking and abstract ideas, i'm also very interesting in putting those theories into practice.
Another thing is that - I'm speaking in terms of ENTP and ESTP - the two can look very much alike depending on where they are in the enneagram. For instance 7w8 ENTPs (like me :wink: ) are going to look very much like ESTPs
 

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MOTM Aug 2010
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There is a similar thread already - not sure if Lance or Grim wants to move this or not, but this is the thread:
http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/8524-se-versus-ne-what-their-essential-differences.html

As for the "open-minded" aspect, SPs and SJs can be open- and closed-minded in their own ways.

Js, in general, desire closure, and in making decisions can cut themselves off from alternate possibilities, making them appear "rigid." In addition, they often, in making decisions, form strong opinions on things, to the point where they may state opinions as if they were facts (something I rarely do).

On the other hand, SPs often do ignore the opinions of others, especially if they consider those opinions to be restrictive, or if they don't view the opinions of others as important in determining what they want to do (for example, other people's opinions of Blake Lively don't really affect mine). In this sense, they can appear more "closed-minded" than SJs, who may be more likely to listen to the opinions of others out of politeness.
 

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Somewhere I read that some SPs (guess due to Se) often score as Ns on several online tests since in interviews they said they also refer to "big picuture thinking" rather than looking for details (rather Si, is that??). However, somewhere I read that the difference between the SPs and Ns is that N sees the pattern FIRST and Se has to LOOK for patterns after having seen details, looks for the patterns behind the details which could also be meant by "interested in the big picture".....
I think you are referring to the article by Linda Berens and Judy Robb. I had posted that article years ago on INTPc and MBTIc, but here it is:
Over the last four years, in the MBTI® Qualifying Programs, advanced programs and elsewhere, we found a disproportionate number of people who had reported preferences for the iNtuiting process while their behaviors seemed to resemble the Artisan-SP temperament pattern. This raised some questions such as: What is the relationship between temperament and Jung's typology? Can someone have one type and a different temperament? If not, what is going on here?

In exploring type dynamics and type development with these individuals, we discovered that indeed, most of them had preferences for extraverted Sensing. Thus the match between the Artisan temperament and Sensing and Perceiving preferences still held. While research is still being done on this topic, we want to put forth some definitions and some hypotheses.

Definitions
The perceiving processes are ways of becoming aware. There are basically two kinds of information one can become aware of: concrete, sensory information or abstract, connections and meanings. Based on our readings of Jung and observations of behavior, we formulated the following matrix:

Both kinds of information are available at any one point in time. Those with a Sensing preference usually become aware of the concrete, sensory information - the content of the pattern - first. Those with a preference for iNtuiting become aware of the abstract information - the patterns of connections and meaning - first.

(Note: We chose to refer to the mental process of intuiting instead of referring to intuition, focusing on the mental processes, not types.)

Jung described each of the mental processes in terms of their attitudes. It wasn't just Sensing, it was Sensing in the extraverted attitude or in the introverted attitude. Functions used in the extraverted attitude have a here and now quality to them. Thus both extraverted Sensing and extraverted iNtuiting are in-the-moment perceptions. When we engage in either of them, our energy goes to either seeking more sensory input (Se) or to interacting to develop more ideas (Ne). In both processes, the focus is on the possibilities and opportunities. With extraverted Sensing(Se), the focus is on the immediate, sensory possibilities and options for action. With extraverted iNtuiting(Ne), it is on the envisioned possibilities, new ideas and meanings.

Functions used in the introverted attitude have a past, future or universal quality to them. Introverted Sensing has a past and sometimes universal sense with the focus on the evoked impression, usually of something perceived beforehand, or as Jung said, "...it would also see what was before their becoming and will be after their passing ..." (Psychological Types, p.395) Introverted iNtuiting is a process of becoming aware of what will be that hasn't yet been. Vision, foresight, and profoundly impactful symbols are often a result of this process.

Sources of Confusion
Several descriptors used for iNtuiting misled these individuals to self-report on the MBTI® or self-select a preference for "N."

Big Picture - Many Artisans-SPs are interested in the big picture. They say they want all the detail, the whole story. One ESFP selected "spire" over "foundation," saying he saw himself on top of the spire seeing the whole picture.

Pattern - Likewise, most of these Artisans-SPs also indicate they look for patterns. Looking for patterns is different than perceiving the pattern first. The differentiating point is the starting place, not the ending place.

Extraverted Sensing and extraverted iNtuiting are holistic, analogic perceptual modes. In extraverted Sensing, the individual elements, like the trees in the forest, are seen in rich detail, all at once. Thus concrete patterns are quite likely to be perceived along with the discrete sensory information. This pattern is different from the abstract extraverted iNtuiting perception of the relationships and connections of the trees to the rest of the environment. Both pattern and big picture can be on a continuum from concrete to abstract.

Possibilities - These Artisans-SPs frequently respond to "possibilities" as an accurate descriptor. When we probed deeper, they described seeking opportunities for action, usually what to do next and what will work to solve a problem. They like brainstorming and coming up with variations on a theme, until the process goes on and on and on and gets too far away from reality. Those who prefer extraverted iNtuiting are increasingly excited by the ideas sparked in the process regardless of how far abstracted from reality. Both extraverted iNtuiting and extraverted Sensing focus in the here and now and on possibilities and opportunities. The differentiating factor is abstraction or concreteness.


Hypotheses

Type Pattern vs. Mental Process - To understand extraverted Sensing, we consult those who have S and P in their four letter code, asking them what they would do, listening to their words and observing their behaviors. We frequently fail to remember that in the _S_P type pattern (hierarchy of functions), there is also iNtuiting. For example, someone with ESTP as preferences, also has introverted iNtuiting. Even though it is in fourth place, it is there. Those with ISTP have introverted iNtuiting as tertiary (following Grant's model) and as adults, probably have had much opportunity to develop and use it. The functions do not operate in isolation, but in dynamic interaction. Could it be what looks like extraverted iNtuiting is really extraverted Sensing, with an introverted iNtuiting perception of the near future? Could this be the attraction to "big picture," "pattern" and "possibilities"?

MBTI® Results are not equal to "True Type" - Since these Artisans-SPs have resonated to some of the descriptors for iNtuiting and reported themselves as "N" on the MBTI®, is it possible we have then reinforced "fuzzy" descriptions by assuming we were observing the behavior and words of someone with a preference for "N"? Also, it is well-established that the SN and JP scales are intercorrelated with those reporting preferences for S also reporting preferences for J and N preferences correlated with P preferences. Is the iNtuiting "preference" an artifact of the instrument?

In our experience, these individuals verify _S_P as their "true type" when we use the clear definitions based on Jung's Psychological Types as in the above matrix,
 

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I figured I'd put in my two cents about SP types and theory. The preference for the concrete over the theoretical contributes to the stereotype that Intuitives are more "intelligent" than SPs, and that SPs often do more poorly than the other types in academics. Of course, if you read my signature, you could probably guess how I feel about those stereotypes. :tongue:

One thing to remember is that functions are preferences, not absolute determinants of behavior. No type is completely incapable of understanding theoretical subjects; some types just tend to gravitate toward these kinds of subjects more than others.

I certainly can talk about deeper things than just sports and Blake Lively, though the "deep" kinds of subjects usually require more of a conscious effort on my part, and usually I won't have much of an interest in them unless I can connect them to something I've experienced or believe to be important to me.
 
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