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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi!

I am curious about INTJ "grip"-experiences, grip meaning over-using or misusing any one of your eight functions, or being unable to access other processes, due to stress. Also curious about simply normal behavior.

How do these situations resonate with you?

- Do you find people confusing / misinterpret them easily? How about INFJs specifically?
- Do you consider yourself empathetic, sensitive and like showering people you like with compliments?
- Does it irritate you if people you care about don't readily share their feelings?
- Are you / have you been possessive?
- How's your self-esteem? Do you see yourself in positive light and trust others (or those whose opinion matter to you, anyway) to do this as well?
- Do you ask *lists* of things about people's lives when making conversation? ("How are you? What are you doing? Where did you do that? How many people were there? How many people usually do that? Was it nice weather?...")
- Do you speak in a monotone voice? (Lol)

(The reason I am asking is because recently two INTJs have had a crush on me, and they turned out to have been left by their long-term gfs a few months ago and have not really dealt with it. Also my mom, an INTJ, has been ill and stressed for all my life basically. I have a tendency to butt heads with said people if I myself am not able to be mature or resist being swept up in the mind-games triggered by their pasts or stress. The sudden changes in Te rationality/toughness and Fi sweetness/martyrdom catch me off-guard. I am not sure what is typical INTJ behavior and what is caused by stress.

As being an INFJ would suggest, I have a hard time dealing with feelings of being constantly misinterpreted (all three love to tell me how confusing I am and making assumptions on my behavior that have zero basis on facts (and somehow manage to ignore my 20 reassurances to the contrary, and seem unwilling to share their visions so that I could just explain the truth instead of arguing for two hours and then accidentally saying something that makes them realize they read me wrong)). Ni's miles apart here. I also dislike being pressured into talking about myself and my feelings, accessing Fi being something that often feels like a gym work-out with max weights for me. Can do it, not constantly, and usually just wanna lie on the floor afterwards, lol. And don't get me started about being possessive about me. :) My dad laughed how I already wanted to build a house of my own with water and electricity, separate from the rest of the family, when I was six or seven years old, ha.)

Also a relationship question: problems seem to resolve themselves in the end, but currently there's a situation with the other guy that I don't know what to do about.

He's wildly infatuated with me to the point of being paranoid about me leaving him. He's also convinced that he should leave me because I'm "too perfect" to be simply friends with and he would be in the torture of rejection forever. I have tried telling him it's not imperative to think about it in terms of deleting me, doubt that the torture would last forever, I have no intention of going anywhere, and he will be fine which way ever it goes so there is nothing to be afraid of. Might as well enjoy my company if he truly does that. Also other stuff, like if there's anything specific he'd like to do with me, I'm up for it. I personally am not madly in love with him as of yet, but don't want to give up because he's nice and I want to know if we could have something, if he only trusted me. We only met recently and don't really even know each other - and I'm not wild about falling in love with fantasies anymore so having a relationship with me requires some patience. (I can only wonder what kind of intuitions he has about me to like me so much!)

So, I have not yet made up my mind about whether anyone gains anything here, if I am doing the right thing by trying to keep him to find out who he really is, or am I just trying to "save" someone who isn't ready for that. It would also suck to make his self-fulfilling prophecy of me leaving him and not being able to help him true. (He has told me that he wants to work through his break-up, but thinks it would be too big a burden on me and I cannot help him and lalala.)

***

Any responses and insights from the INTJ side of the fence would be greatly appreciated! :D
- 21/F/INFJ
 

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Don't consider going out with that guy. He barely knows you and he's jealous of other people/afraid you'll leave him? That's not healthy. It doesn't matter what's "right" or not. He needs to get himself straightened out before he tries to be in relationships anyway.



- Do you find people confusing / misinterpret them easily? How about INFJs specifically? Yes, all the time. But I'm learning the "patterns" of most people's actions. I don't know any INFJs personally, but it surprises/confuses me that they (based on posts I've read) become extremely attached to people without a basis for it.


- Do you consider yourself empathetic, sensitive and like showering people you like with compliments? After a lot of research + practice I've developed empathy in that I can usually get into people's heads and understand their motives. Not all the time, but most of the time. I'm honestly not sensitive to other people's needs, unless I know them extremely well. Unless someone tells me what they want or need, I have trouble recognizing it. I don't recognize a lot of nonverbal signals (but I'm currently researching them!). I don't give people I like compliments, not because I don't have good things to say, but because it seems unnecessary. I don't want to tell someone that they're pretty only to have them vehemently deny it. If someone says they appreciate compliments, though, I'll certainly give them (if I really, really like you and care about you. Otherwise, I wouldn't).


- Does it irritate you if people you care about don't readily share their feelings? Yes it does. A lot. I'm not a mind reader and I suck at signals. Tell me what you're thinking so I can do something about it.


- Are you / have you been possessive? I think I could be if I ever lost confidence or got really depressed/paranoid. But I've never been possessive, no, and I don't think I'll ever be.


- How's your self-esteem? Do you see yourself in positive light and trust others (or those whose opinion matter to you, anyway) to do this as well? My self-esteem is alright. I generally like myself. I used to expect others to feel the same, but most people have incredibly low confidence levels (in my experience).


- Do you ask *lists* of things about people's lives when making conversation? ("How are you? What are you doing? Where did you do that? How many people were there? How many people usually do that? Was it nice weather?...") No. I usually don't care about little details unless I 1) really care about you and think you want to tell me or 2) I've run out of things to talk about.


- Do you speak in a monotone voice? Only when I'm on "autopilot"/thinking really hard.
 

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Don't consider going out with that guy. He barely knows you and he's jealous of other people/afraid you'll leave him? That's not healthy. It doesn't matter what's "right" or not. He needs to get himself straightened out before he tries to be in relationships anyway.
QFT


- Do you find people confusing / misinterpret them easily? How about INFJs specifically? --- Yes and no..depends. If it's someone's interactions with me and figuring that out, yes I often misinterpret/get confused but if I'm analyzing actions between other people I'm usually spot on..hence why people come to me for advice often. INFJs specifically? Not sure.

- Do you consider yourself empathetic, sensitive and like showering people you like with compliments? --- more likely to be empathetic or sympathetic than giving people compliments. I just forget to..I guess because I don't really need them myself. I mean, yeah it feels nice but I'd rather have constructive criticism actually. So I just don't remember that other people do need encouragement and compliments. I get all confused with the empathy/sympathy difference, but I do feel for people at times - I have compassion in my heart. I also can see how or why a person feels they way they do about something (most of the time), though I may not agree with their conclusion about why they should feel that way or let it rule their behavior.


- Does it irritate you if people you care about don't readily share their feelings? --- yes, if there is someone I choose to be close to/want to be friends or romantically interested in/etc. then I want to know about them, what they think, etc. I don't want it to be like overly mushy but I want to know them at a deep level.


- Are you / have you been possessive? --- I can feel that way a little bit, particularly early on when I'm really excited about a person, but I am stable enoug to realize that isn't right and behave appropriately and basically tell myself I'm being silly.


- How's your self-esteem? Do you see yourself in positive light and trust others (or those whose opinion matter to you, anyway) to do this as well?--- my self esteem is pretty good...solid, I like who I am a lot, more and more as i get older, and I am confident in being myself. But I do get surprised when others hold me in high regard...I guess it's like I'm happy with myself but I don't think I'm anything particularly special..so a lot of positive regard is surprising :) nice surprise, embarrassing, but nice most of the time.


- Do you ask *lists* of things about people's lives when making conversation? ("How are you? What are you doing? Where did you do that? How many people were there? How many people usually do that? Was it nice weather?...")---- OMFG NO!!!!!!! That's the worst. The only time I do that is with patients I work with since you have to make some sort of conversation to build rapport...usually with older adults (I.e. senior citizens) I can ask one or to of these questions and they will take it from there. But in my own personal life...haaaaailll no.


- Do you speak in a monotone voice? -- no one has ever told me I do. I don't think so. Probably more subdued than some others though.
 
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You're focusing a lot on what *he* wants, and what *he* needs (very INFJ of you). But what do you want?

Are you attracted to him? Do you like his mind? Are you interested in him?

I wouldn't get involved (romantically) with an INTJ who is not yet over his prior relationship, that stuff is damn messy.
 

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- Do you find people confusing / misinterpret them easily? No. I usually read people extremely well, AFAIK. But I don't think I speculate nearly as much about the 'why' of their inner minds as I used to. How about INFJs specifically? Not aware of knowing any.

I do have a tendency to micro-examine and over-ramify when I'm stressed, and most particularly when I'm anxious/frightened. Then it looks like 'confusion' but what it really is is a slightly manic quest for far more 'certainty' than I'd ever need in a less rattled state.

- Do you consider yourself empathetic Yes, but often in a very abstract kind of way, sensitive Yes. Both uber-emo myself, and very alert to/considerate of others and like showering people you like with compliments? I shower people I like with accuracy. It sounds impersonal but it makes them feel crazy 'noticed' and 'seen' which is worth more to most people than a simple sunshine enema.

- Does it irritate you if people you care about don't readily share their feelings? Depends on the context and stakes. Either 'nope' or 'hell to the yeah'.

- Are you / have you been possessive? I don't know. Never really had to worry about whatever lies underneath that.


- How's your self-esteem? Solid enough that I don't keep tabs on it very much. Do you see yourself in positive light and trust others (or those whose opinion matter to you, anyway) to do this as well? I'm not as interested in 'positive' as I am in 'accurate'. And yes to both questions, with that being clarified.

- Do you ask *lists* of things about people's lives when making conversation?. Hell no. I mean, what?

- Do you speak in a monotone voice? (Lol) Why the lol? No. If anything, too expressive with vocal tone.

(The reason I am asking is because recently two INTJs have had a crush on me, and they turned out to have been left by their long-term gfs a few months ago and have not really dealt with it.


IMO, you don't need to know more than that. If they haven't dealt with it then they're not good people to be playing with.

The sudden changes in Te rationality/toughness and Fi sweetness/martyrdom catch me off-guard. I am not sure what is typical INTJ behavior and what is caused by stress.

I don't do anything of that kind. While I can be mercurial and I certainly do take sudden 90-degree turns of mood off 'invisible' things that other people might not even have registered, I don't do them without explaining myself to anyone standing close enough to be thrown off by it. It's not my goal or intention to confuse other people, in fact I hate it when someone else is.

seem unwilling to share their visions so that I could just explain the truth instead of arguing for two hours and then accidentally saying something that makes them realize they read me wrong)

Oh well, that is just bullshit iyam. You're essentially on trial with these guys without even knowing what the charges supposedly are?

I also dislike being pressured into talking about myself and my feelings,
Right. Creepy. And by the sounds of it they might be doing the clingy-intj type behaviour, of trying to force/manufacture an intimacy which will do [whatever] for [whatever is bothering them]. But someone healthy shouldn't be doing any of that in the first place.

currently there's a situation with the other guy that I don't know what to do about.
I wouldn't hang around waiting or hoping for him to trust you under these kinds of conditions, because it sounds to me like the terms of his 'trust' are in themselves kind of skewed off the base.

Any responses and insights from the INTJ side of the fence would be greatly appreciated! :D
- 21/F/INFJ
Ditch 'em both :tongue:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
You're focusing a lot on what *he* wants, and what *he* needs (very INFJ of you). But what do you want?

Are you attracted to him? Do you like his mind? Are you interested in him?

I wouldn't get involved (romantically) with an INTJ who is not yet over his prior relationship, that stuff is damn messy.
Yes, I can be down-right helpless figuring out what I want, and for some reason (Fe!) it doesn't get better until I start asking other people, haha. :)

I am mostly curious and interested about him and who he could be, as with all people I suppose. I don't know him well enough to say that I like him, he only looks/looked promising... For my share of relationship history, I had someone tell me (of yet another guy similar to these) that "You don't like him just because he likes you". Maybe I wanted to put that theory to a test out of self-doubt. :/

Two days ago we, for a moment, had a sane conversation - interestingly enough, it was when I finally broke down and felt bad enough to become something I'd rather not be. Insanity was restored the next day when I was feeling OK again. I think I've seen enough now!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thank you all for your responses! Things seem a lot clearer and more certain now. I think I learned something here, both about INTJs and myself. :ninja:
 

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It sounds like you're reading a fair bit into it. Rampant Ni? Wanting to 'save someone' (?), you can't save anyone but your own bad self.

Forget about what you are picking up in your senses, ask honest questions and listen (not feel) to the answers, heed the warnings after time well spent considering. Take it slow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
It sounds like you're reading a fair bit into it. Rampant Ni? Wanting to 'save someone' (?), you can't save anyone but your own bad self.

Forget about what you are picking up in your senses, ask honest questions and listen (not feel) to the answers, heed the warnings after time well spent considering. Take it slow.
It's not in my conscious intentions to "save" or help anyone who does not want or need that, as if that ever worked out, but I am simply afraid I might be doing that anyway. Hence the anxiety and indecisiveness in the original post.

By saving him I mean - In his case I was wishing he would let go of assuming I don't want to talk to him if I don't reply in 8 minutes (not exaggerating here), but every time I explain one aspect of my behavior or life, he finds a new one to interpret as a sign of me being done with him. Getting tired of getting the "OK, if you wanna talk again and drop a line some time in the next few weeks, just answer my question and I will read it" a few times a day. Being honest and direct about it hasn't been fruitful either, it becomes "Seems like you always have a problem with me".

Unless there's something I'm not seeing, continuing now would be, for me, either trying to "fix" his insecurity (not good) or pretending to not be bothered (even worse). Guess it's time to save myself, then! :p
 

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It's not in my conscious intentions to "save" or help anyone who does not want or need that, as if that ever worked out, but I am simply afraid I might be doing that anyway. Hence the anxiety and indecisiveness in the original post.

By saving him I mean - In his case I was wishing he would let go of assuming I don't want to talk to him if I don't reply in 8 minutes (not exaggerating here), but every time I explain one aspect of my behavior or life, he finds a new one to interpret as a sign of me being done with him. Getting tired of getting the "OK, if you wanna talk again and drop a line some time in the next few weeks, just answer my question and I will read it" a few times a day. Being honest and direct about it hasn't been fruitful either, it becomes "Seems like you always have a problem with me".

Unless there's something I'm not seeing, continuing now would be, for me, either trying to "fix" his insecurity (not good) or pretending to not be bothered (even worse). Guess it's time to save myself, then! :p
From what i've seen, like us INFJs, I've found INTJs to be quite...negative when it comes to interpreting if someone likes them or not. Like us (but more so), as big-picture-thinkers, they see the flaws and negatives first. In my humble opinion, I think this is because largely INTJs aren't treated the best by people and are often ignored/overlooked/dismissed/etc due to misunderstandings about their nature/motivations/personality, so they can require a lot of positive signs that you like them/want them around in order to balance the negatives. You have to be blunt/overt.

Also, you are here expressing uncertainty and doubts about this guy - do you get how intuitive INTJs can be? They can intuit your uncertainty.

To me, it sounds like he really likes you since he wants to have so much contact with you. The intensity you're seeing from him sounds to me like 'intj-lazer-pointer' - when they stop merely being scientific observers, and start to pile all of their brain power and focus onto you and analyse the living hell out of you while interacting with you. It's intense, but really cool if you go with it.

I'm interested to know what the "broke down and become something i'm not" 'sane' conversation was?

See this bit of info from @bethdeth ?
Forget about what you are picking up in your senses, ask honest questions and listen (not feel) to the answers, heed the warnings after time well spent considering. Take it slow.
She is giving you INTJ insight here. Concise, serious advice, in INTJ-succinct-style. Every single word counts. You gotta listen to INTJs words, not actions, listen to the words!!!

She said: Forget about what you are picking up in your senses (You are not a sensor and its your weakest function). Ask honest questions and listen (because INTJs will tell you without all the ordinary fluff, what they are thinking *HONESTLY*) - don't "feel" the answers, because with INTJs our feels get it wrong since they are abberations to our little psychological theories. Heed the warnings (think) after you've considered. Take it slow :D

I would add to this: Listen to your *intuition*, NOT your 'senses/feelings'. Let your Ni ponder over it, and it will give you lots of information if you aren't stressed out and reactive like a sensing type.
 

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So much analyzing. I don't really have too much to chip in with other than that my INFJ cousin married an INTJ. They seem to attract each other a lot. Even when I was young I got along with her extremely well. I know they have some communication problems from time to time, but are patient enough to get past it. I think this year will be their second anniversary. If this has any bearing on the discussion.

I would say based off of a gut feeling and thought that you should go for it, at least for a little while. Get a little more confident about it and you might see him improve. Easier said than done though for some people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Also, you are here expressing uncertainty and doubts about this guy - do you get how intuitive INTJs can be? They can intuit your uncertainty.
In the beginning I thought nothing of it and had no doubts. He was sure I was going to leave him from... day two or three? Which took me completely by surprise, we hadn't talked about relationships until then. My red flags rose up here, but I decided to give it time... and after a few days of reassuring him, I started having doubts. (Call a man a thief and he will steal!) I knew that I'd have to be honest with myself and asked myself if I am sure about what I am doing (because of the very reason that inauthenticity seeps through) - do I like him for who he is or just because he likes me, is talking with him still rewarding, and do I honestly still believe anything good will come out of it - and answered yes. A few more days of giving it time and, well... I came here because the 'yes' turned to a 'I don't know'. :p

I'm interested to know what the "broke down and become something i'm not" 'sane' conversation was?
I woke up one day to find a message waiting for me where he quoted his friend advising him to stop talking to me and added his own opinion of "makes sense". I felt incredibly frustrated at first, his friend has some ideas about me that I don't recognize as me, but then I figured it may well be their truth. Because saying "no, that's not what I am" and explaining myself didn't work the previous 20 times, I gave up and told him to "listen to his friend, I seem to be the only one left still thinking there's any reason to talk, so, my opinion doesn't count anymore". He said goodbye several times, telling me I should message him if I change my mind, and told me he'll love me forever.

But well, after the goodbyes he got back to me on a few things, like to mention that he won't be finishing a drawing he was making for me, to which I said that I know. He asked me "How?" and I said that "Common sense: because I'm not something to finish anymore. I've hurt him enough and am too stupid to do anything about it, so he should hate and burn me." Apparently his friend liked that and told him that there is "still hope for me", but he said goodbye again and encouraged me to mail him if I ever change my mind. (At this point I finally asked what exactly am I supposed to change my mind about - and apparently the fact that I didn't want to talk to him. Ohhhhh aaaaargh...) I asked him if HE still wants to talk to me, and then the sane part of the conversation and agreement happened.

Right at this moment we're still talking, but he has switched from chatting to a letter format. (Formal greetings, long paragraphs of how he's doing and farewell-wishes with his name at the end. In my Facebook chat.) Trying to ignore my senses (failed), not to infer any meanings out of it (also failed) and go with the flow (working for now)... But... Yeah, I have no idea.

She is giving you INTJ insight here. Concise, serious advice, in INTJ-succinct-style. Every single word counts. You gotta listen to INTJs words, not actions, listen to the words!!!
Yes, I thought so. :) I think I know what she means, but I guess the application and heeding the warnings -part seems a bit hazy... I've had a hoard of programmer friends, INTJ and INTP, not to mention my physicist parents and sister, who all like honesty, "no mind games please I suck at them" and precision. Which makes it all the more strange that I cannot find a common language with this particular guy.

Why is your type so drawn to us?
In my case, they are drawn to me. :D:D At least recently... Buut, when I was a kid I liked playing with logic, getting at the truths no matter how unorthodox, and trying to be smart - and of course respected and liked those who were experts at it. I still love to analyze and drill down on certain things, as you can see. I don't really care if I'm right or wrong initially or if my ego gets hurt so long as the reached conclusion is wise. Something I didn't acknowledge back then but recognize now is that I also am looking for that "toughness" and ability to defend oneself that NTs have. I also trust NTs to be the most honest (and generally more literal in their speech) about their claims on not being personal when debating, making it easier for me to remind myself that there's no reason to be hurt. Trying to find the best approach to things with an ESTP is the worst thing I have experienced in a year... It gets personal and accusatory, fast, lol. Also, interest in art, science and nitpicking, and a similar sense of humor are often instant clicks with NTs.
 

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To the first questions:
- Yes and definitely yes.
- Empthetic, not particularly. Sensitive, also not really. Showering people with compliments, no.
- Actually yes. If I'm trying to help one of my friends, and they won't tell me what/how they're feeling, I can't help them. Which irritates me because my friends, while few, are important to me.
- No.
- Generally, it's really great. I love me. But there are times when I look at all the things my love interest has accomplished and I feel like my life is just a waste.
- No.
- No.

I dated an INFJ for 13 months, which took up almost all of freshman year (high school) and a little into sophomore year. The problem was she lied to me for 9 of those 13 months. In her defense, she was doing what she thought was right, what was best for me. She said she was just trying to protect me. While I wanted to forgive her and understand why she did it, I could do neither. The results were not pretty. When we broke up, she cried. I, on the other hand, walked away feeling nothing but pure freedom. I honestly felt a little guilty that she was so upset but I was not, but that didn't last. That isn't all though. I now find it much, much more difficult to trust people and my subsequent romantic relationships have contained a bit of paranoia that was not present before. I also get a little irrationally angry when my girlfriend does something because she thinks she knows what's best for me. I am a big boy and I can take care of myself.

My only advice to you is, if you do start a relationship with an INTJ, make sure you always tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

So help you God.
 

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Well that imploded fast, guy had some major insecurities. His friend almost seems like... Palpatine or something trying to get Skywalker to turn to the darkside. I have to wonder if there was some other motive there. If my friend started butting in to that level I would tell him to fuck off, but that's probably just me. I have a fairly high level of independence.

I'll answer the questions, because why the hell not.
- I can sometimes be confused, but if you give me some time I'll get it eventually. Though obviously a faster path is the direct approach since I'm always willing to listen to someone who wants to talk. Do I find people confusing? I can and often do all the time, but I've gotten really good at letting it go. They need to learn on their own, and not everyone learns the same way. The majority of people I just can't help no matter how much sarcastic comments I give them. My ISFJ grandmother managed to cram emotions into me in the end.

- I don't do the compliment thing often, once in awhile. Though I sometimes feel I'm coming off as manipulative or calculating in its usage. I wish this weren't so. Am I empathetic? Yes, but it's hard to get me to fess up to that in a large group. Though observing me you can tell I am, since sometimes I'll show distress at some of the things my friends would do that I wouldn't because I can empathize.

- Sometimes, it depends on my mood. Again I've come to simply accept people and their emotions. Though at other times I feel it can be a little too much.

- I'm not possessive in the slightest, if anything I often go out of my way to help people feel more free. Then again we'll see how that plays out in truth once I get into a relationship (if I ever do). I doubt I could be possessive though, I like my freedom. Why would I not let someone else have theirs?

- Self Esteem is good, mostly because I don't give a shit what others think about me. I can have my days though where I doubt myself. So I would say average to good for self esteem. I've noticed a lot of people don't have such great esteem of themselves as I do. I do trust others if I am close to them yes, but at the same time I am always calculating. So I do sometimes calculate if they will betray me, these are often dismissed as unlikely outcomes. More or less me just being thorough in my thoughts. I do feel I need others to trust me somewhat, I can have difficulty translating down my thoughts so someone with trust and patience to listen and get the full idea is great. If I don't like the person, or simply require co-operation this trust thing can be tossed out.

- I do, but I don't know if all NT's would. I have had some social skills crammed into me since I was a very young person. I'm not very good at it, and sometimes I panic about what the heck to think of and ask. But in general yes, but I also like to think about more abstract stuff.

- If you don't know me I do... not sound like anything. I'm almost completely silent since I've learned talking leads to butthurt friends and people. IF you can get me laughing, that's it. I'm done for. You got me. I'll start acting a lot more human then and you can see I have an inner world. 99.99% of the populace isn't going to see this though. So assuming you got me to be a friend then no I don't really talk monotone, I can actually be quite goofy. Growing up with a bunch of SP's and and ENFP I think is what did that. Or the rare time when someone says/does something so funny I can't help but smile or snicker to myself and people think I'm crazy.
 
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