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Discussion Starter #1
How do you think these concepts relate to you?

Do people seem to think you have low self esteem because you question everything so much? Do you perceive this as actual low self esteem, or do you think it's something else?

Do you think you're hard on yourself?
 

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Not directly answering your question but this is what I've learned along the way about those concepts. Basically the ego is simply an image, something that can be destroyed. Self-esteem is what remains when we accept ourselves and what constitutes our true abilities/stature. I believe esteem is harder to break than ego. Confidence is generally the combination of both at the time you are presented.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
(Meant to edit this post instead of posting another.)
 

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Other people think I'm hard on myself. I think I'm far too easy on myself. To achieve my end goals I probably need to shape up quite a bit. I should beat myself up more. (And if I saw that attitude exhibited by somebody other than me I'd be worried. But it's okay to subject myself to it.)

My self-esteem in some areas is too high, but it is a bit too low in others. It's more or less healthy, though.
 

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Self Esteem, Pride and Self Confidence = Three things I don't have.

And yeah, I have considered the way I think and how it is probably the reason for my crappy self-esteem. I question everything: every rare compliment I get, every friendship I make, every second of eye contact I share with someone. I've been a lot harder on myself since my depression suddenly escalated a few months ago, but I've had a terrible self-esteem since I was 3 or 4.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
 

Not directly answering your question but this is what I've learned along the way about those concepts. Basically the ego is simply an image, something that can be destroyed. Self-esteem is what remains when we accept ourselves and what constitutes our true abilities/stature. I believe esteem is harder to break than ego. Confidence is generally the combination of both at the time you are presented.
Interesting. I understand that psychological concepts can never be perfected, and this seems to be heading towards something I can understand, however I see that both ego and self esteem can be destroyed. What can be created can be destroyed, and "people talk" ;) about creating self esteem, or destroying self esteem. Stature is dependent upon a combination of self perception and the perceptions of ourselves by the culture around us.

As much as I'd like to get into them, I wonder if these diagrams are wishful thinking.

Or am I being too literal?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
My self-esteem in some areas is too high, but it is a bit too low in others.
I think this epitomizes the general esteem quandary of INTPs (both intrapersonally and interpersonally).
 
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Interesting. I understand that psychological concepts can never be perfected, and this seems to be heading towards something I can understand, however I see that both ego and self esteem can be destroyed. What can be created can be destroyed, and "people talk" ;) about creating self esteem, or destroying self esteem. Stature is dependent upon a combination of self perception and the perceptions of ourselves by the culture around us.

As much as I'd like to get into them, I wonder if these diagrams are wishful thinking.

Or am I being too literal?
The diagrams are simplified and I'd think it can be way more complicated than those. Yes I believe both can be developed and broken. Though I think more of ego as the one which needs more outside confirmation than the other.
 

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How do you think these concepts relate to you?

Do people seem to think you have low self esteem because you question everything so much? Do you perceive this as actual low self esteem, or do you think it's something else?

Do you think you're hard on yourself?
I think I come across as unsure/indecisive due to my questioning but I don't think I come off as having low self esteem.
But to some people I could I guess. My close friends seem to think I'm actually a bit cocky.

I don't think I have low self-esteem. I believe in my capabilities, I am optimistic.

Recently I've realized that I am not too socially awkward anymore. I don't like to initiate conversations but I have good social etiquette. When contrasting myself to others I've realized that they seem oblivious to the communicative cues the person they are interacting with are giving them. I've sort of developed into being good at making people smile and be polite.

I think people that are insecure tend to have more conflict with others and I don't experience that, so I don't think that's consistent with someone who is insecure. Even abrasive people tend to act polite towards me.

For instance just today I was at a screening and a lady was fuming at the chiro I was with because she said that her husband went to him once before and that he was worse and that now he is better after his surgery. She then stated that she was "philosophically opposed to chiropractic" I think that her abrasive attitude shows a lack of confidence as she wanted people to know she was "right" (note that he only saw a chiro - once lol) but clearly she is looking for someone to acknowledge her mental prowless because she doesn't feel very confident in her own abilities. It's likely she's a housewife with a successful husband who wants to find a sense of worth, perhaps he's always right about stuff and she feels like an idiot in comparison so now that she was "right" about something she wants the world to know.

My response was to watch the chiros reaction, he clearly had his mood change and his interactions with the next people was different and he went home sortly afterwards. He's a seasoned chiro and has hundreds, likely thousands of patients that he's helped and it bothered him that much. I on the otherhand was only really stopped in my tracks to think about my impression of the lady and after that stopped I just said - oh she wants validation for her beliefs because she doesn't have good self confidence - perhaps she was criticized a lot as a child. And I maintained my demeanor I even tried to calm the chiro down.

I think my way of dealing with it says I have high self-esteem. I didn't feel a need to argue with her or try and retaliate.

For me self-esteem and asking questions are separate issues.
I ask questions because I don't know things and I am fine telling people I don't know - that's why I ask.
I don't try to overcompensate or blow up my abilities much - anymore ;P
 

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I used to have very large confidence issues, but now I'd think I'm about average in that regard. Some people around me are convinced that I still have overly low confidence. I will note, however, that those who say these things tend to be dominant Te types, around whom I am tangibly less talkative and maintain a smaller presence, simply because the communication style often leaves me feeling suppressed.

I don't feel as though I have issues with self-esteem any longer. I used to, when I bothered to worry about external expectations and other ego-driven points of anxiety, but I gradually decided to view my worth in terms of my own goals, my own expectations, and my own efforts, which has made me vastly more successful in almost everything I do. This is partially what I'm talking about. I am somewhat hard on myself, but not in the vein of self-pity or the like, but because it keeps me focused and motivated. I am content with who I am, but often not with the things I am doing. Luckily, the latter can actually be changed.

Pride is something I devalue entirely. It is a self-centered emotion that is on the long term useless for personal growth and development. I'm not talking about feeling "proud" of others for their accomplishments or for the few "good" types of pride one can have (feeling a sense of accomplishment, for example), but of exalting oneself and expecting future vindication of this exaltation. I have worried at times that my efforts to stay externally modest have made me internally arrogant (for being more humble than others), but I don't think this is actually the case. I minimize myself not because I want to feel better, but because I find more peace with myself when I'm not trying to endlessly and needlessly clamber to the top of the heap. I'd prefer to just be myself and live by my own expectations for myself, which are sometimes quite high, but I don't think unrealistic.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
All of this discussion so far leads me to thinking (as a tangent, not as a result) that the INTP relationship with self esteem is not just about the excessive amounts of critical analysis INTPs often engage in and the eroding effect that this may have on a "wholesome" self perception.

I believe that it's also related to trust in systems and the ability to have the freedom to continue improvements in increments without having the sands shift beneath them and witnessing the system collapse.

Even though INTPs are apparently perceivers (debatable in socionics circles) and flexible/adaptable in their ideas, they seem to need a place where they can be stable. They appear to have a need to be part of something greater, where they are contributing towards a deeper, unforgettable good.

For an INTP to be building up systems and improvements that have no tangible or long term merit may be corrosive to self esteem. If nothing else, an INTP who doesn't contribute to a deeper long term knowledge seems to me like a ship in a storm. In a culture where capitalism and consumerism is king (and quality is stifled as a result) an INTP needs to expend a great deal of energy anchoring themselves, without which others may perceive this as a real or imagined sense of low self esteem.
 
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People generally see me as insecure and narcissistic/cocky.

Given my social persona I totally see how they arrive that conclusion, but it's only that, my persona.

Since I'm unconfrontational paired with a live and let live attitude most people won't ever get a glimpse as to what is behind said mask. If I take something seriously I generally finish what I started. That is what confidence means to me, making decisions and sticking by them - it's mostly that I hardly ever take anything seriously enough to attach myself to it.

Still, questioning too much can easily lower one's self-esteem, at least if it is oneself you're questioning. Not because analysis is bad per se, but because eventually you'll run into a rabbit hole with no escape, nor answers - and if you cannot find any answers you remain in a confused state of mind which only feeds your insecurity.

Been there quite often, I'm certain I will again - generally however I've learned to accept certain things for what they are, rather than trying to dive into a one way street of demise and distress. Still, the goal isn't to practice ignorance is bliss - but if it ain't hurting anyone including yourself there's no reason to dwell too much in it.

Most people just need to make themselves feel better about themselves by putting others down and/or needing affirmation. The whole pseudo-confidence hogwash is nothing but bullying inevitably. There are confident people, few and far inbetween - you however immediately notice the difference as they possess an entirely different way / aura. Contentedness has no vile intentions and for as long as people are being malicious/bitter there isn't any true confidence to be found.

Being extremely small-minded and unwilling to see alternative perspective seems to lead to aggression for most folks (I prefer the term butthurt) - it is then considered to be normal, or confidence, as they stand by what they think. At least that is the impression I am getting when people use the term confidence.

As for me, I consider myself quite humble as it were, occasionally I must remind myself to not make it a virtue as that will skew my perspective as it triggers a mindset of superiority which I find harmful. Additionally I found that many attacks from others can be re-directed at them easily, as they're exhibiting what they're criticizing you for - this makes me wonder if most things in that regard aren't mere projections of people's own insecurities.

EDIT: A little anecdote;

The other day I wrote with a stranger - given that I like writing using fancy words and hilarious sentence structures paired with a whole of bunch irony/sarcasm the recipient turned onto me and called me attention seeking, pseudo-intelligent, validation seeker, narcissistic and lonely. All because of they way I typed. Now my question is as follows: Why do people feel threatened by such things?

It is quite revealing and a lesson worthwhile learning and applying - whenever you feel threatened by anything, ask yourself why you are. Chances are there is no valid reason most of the time (irrational insecurity) - as such this helps building confidence tremendously if as a result you can turn off a harmful perception of things where there shouldn't be any to begin with.

Helps for a more positive outlook, too.
 

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Compared to a lot of the people I know, my self-esteem is through the roof. I'm all about healthy self-love. If I do something well, screw modesty! I celebrate! When people compliment me, you bet I accept it with a smile and a thank you! I think there is a culture (particularly in Scotland, where I live, and among teenagers, which I am) of people talking down their achievements, and it's really, really sad. The people who succeed are the ones who can big themselves up, believe in themselves and like themselves, because then other people start to believe in and like them too.

I think I also read somewhere that narcissists are more honest with themselves about their flaws. I think that's true in my case. I can like myself but still recognise areas for improvement, and maybe it's easier because the process of analysing or evaluating myself isn't bogged down with bad feeling.

I don't make myself feel guilty about seeing my good points.
 

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People always tell me that I am too hard on myself and think that I have low self-esteem, but I would argue that I have a very realistic understanding of myself, which just happens to include my flaws.
I do not like to brag, but that doesn't mean I have low self-esteem. My accomplishments materialize into plain view. If people see me as successful and say something, I feel happy.
I want to get to a point in life where I can celebrate my life as a success, rather than simply celebrating mere accomplishments along the way.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I want to get to a point in life where I can celebrate my life as a success, rather than simply celebrating mere accomplishments along the way.
Yes!
 

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I tend to be a narcissist. My usually over-inflated head exudes arrogance. I sometimes stop dead in my tracks when I am praised for being humble. As for my self-confidence I have many little things that provide me with a boost. I just love myself. And I have to be hard on myself. If I'm not I might fall below my standards and that is something that just will not do. In regards to thinking too much I am told that I should lay off. I don't see it as having something to do in relation to pride, self-esteem, and confidence. If anything, there is always a delay in my decision-making. Perhaps that is what seen as lacking confidence.

I'm not much to go into a cave without a flashlight. I always need to make sure that the next step I take is a sure one.
 

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I go into periods of euphoria wherein I view myself as capable of whatever I set my mind to.

Later I think I was simply deluding myself, that I'm worthless, pathetic, an artful liar, etc.

So neither pride nor self-loathing are foreign to me, as far as my own experience goes.

I decided four nights ago that I need to mature before I'm able make any sense of this conflict of self-evaluations. To this end I'll be postponing some of my philosophical activities.
 

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Self-esteem- Not really. I make it through the day, and not many notice, but especially when surrounded by people who I think are better than I am, I just kind of sink into a hole of idolization and self-loathing. It feels pretty normal to me, though.

Pride- Eh. Sometimes I get a feeling of it, but I try to beat it down with the heavy bludgeons of reality as quickly as possible.

Self-confidence- It depends on the situation. In most cases, I can afford to be self-confident because I know that no one will catch me if I'm wrong. But like I stated above, anyone I hold in high esteem would be able to crush me pretty damn quick.

Yes, I'm hard on myself and I have low self-esteem (by other people's standards, at least). It doesn't mean I'm not going to try to better myself, but I can't stand being wrong, so often I'll just shut up. When I ask questions, I'm probably sounding my most confident. It's far easier to be wrong making a statement than asking a question. I feel good about myself asking the right questions, and increasing my knowledge, rather than in showing it off.
 

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(suspected INTP here)

I've gone through life with poor enough social skills that I ended up pinning my entire sense of self-worth on being clever, and being correct. So when I got to a stage in education where I wasn't necessarily the smartest person in the room by default, my self-esteem basically crumbled because I had nothing else to make myself worthy (in my own opinion). I beat myself up for not being consistent enough - I think that pretty obviously comes from my obsession with things being logical and making sense. If I can't simply and accurately describe myself, then I don't know what I am. If I don't know what I am, I must be something bad.

But I think I probably come across as confident to other people. Because I don't talk much in social situations, when I do talk it's generally well though-out and so people assume I'm intelligent. And if I'm confident that I'm correct about something, then I can keep pulling apart an opposing argument until everyone else has long got bored and gone home, which probably makes me seem overly stubborn or even narcissistic.
 
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