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MOTM July 2012
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Emerald, even though you're not a sensor I still can respect/grasp your point. The LAST thing I wanted to do was to judge the WORLD of senors, this was primarily about finding ways for an intuitive to cope with sensors in their immediate family of origin. I think sensors are great, because of my Se function. I love when I present the Extroverted Senors with novel ideas like "Lets go Party!" or "Let's go skydiving" (haven't done it yet, but probably will lol) they're all for it! They're doers, and learn through doing. It's not a bad thing! They can be pretty exciting/fun loving, and genuine, and warm, and straight forward; those are the GOOD traits I love about them! Sometimes it's frustrating though because there's alot of filters you have to pass through for their cognition for them to be receptive/see your point...if you're more of a PHYSICAL/EARTH (sensing) person dealing with a more MENTAL/IMMATERIAL/AIR/WATER (intuitive) person, the way we communicate is oppositional at times.

What makes things a little more difficult is that my TRUE PERSONALITY is very abstract/aqueous in nature, and is hard to put/understand through 'linear/concrete-style' thinking; it takes a possibility/abstract-styled 'maybe he's this way? So I'll ask him this/these questions' styled approach. I've bee perceived as 'uppity', 'mean' when it's completely untrue. I'm a pretty nice guy, who is probably a little too nice, and adverse to conflict, but I LOVE a good fight!

I'd like to say that if the shoe where on the other proverbial foot, and there were more intuitives/possibility driven folk in the world and less sensors, HOW do you think it'd feel to know that you can't talk to anyone about your interests? Or be able to share your inner world with someone? It's just down-right painful...It's not intentional on my families part, I think, it's just how they are. It's like blaming someone for their sexuality, it's NOT right, or fair, or even RATIONAL to do so, because it's beyond personal control; it's just you INNATE DESIGN.
i knew you meant well (it was obvious by the way you started out praising the sensors you know), so i felt bad posting that, because i knew you were venting about being misunderstood and that generalizations like "you always do this" or "every [insert class here] is like this" and the like tend to occur in vents, due to frustration, even where they aren't meant. i also figured you would agree with me and i didn't want to be harsh towards you. but i also didn't want sensors to be hurt by reading this thread, so i felt the need to say it. it really bothers me to see typist remarks about them (or about any type, for that matter).

...yes, there can be difficulties of interpretation between people who view things in very different ways, but remember that difficulty goes both ways - it can be just as frustrating for the other person as it is for you, and in my experience it seems that both sides tend to blame the other party. oops, I just noticed that Noelle said the same thing.

to be honest, what you're dealing with is incompatibility.

there are deep-thinking sensors and deep-thinking intuitives. my best friend is a (tested) ISTP type 4 and i can discuss anything with her and we are on the same page, because we think very much alike and are concerned with similar matters due to our shared enneatype. we talk for hours and we both find our conversations satisfying. my dad is an ESTJ type 8 (i think 5 is his head fix) and i can talk with him about a lot of theoretical topics also, and he's passionate about ideas as well. sometimes i am sad when our talks have to end. i know a (tested) ISFJ who enjoys studying theories and discussing them and has initiated conversations with me on those topics before.

i seriously think it is more a matter of enneatype than it is of MBTI type or perceiving function. to give some examples: yes, intuitives tend to be ideas people, but so are type 5s (which can be any MBTI type). yes, intuitives like to look at the meaning behind things, but so do type 4s (which can be any MBTI type). that's just two examples - there are more. intuitives aren't the only ones who enjoy intellectual, deep, or meaningful conversation; in fact, there are lots of intuitives who are more inclined towards non-theoretical conversations or who don't enjoy debate because it feels like interpersonal conflict. there are sensors who enjoy a good debate - in my limited experience i've known ESTPs or ESTJs to do this, but i'm sure they are not the only ones.

it's frustrating when others can't "get" what you're trying to say, or can't appreciate your way of thinking, and especially if they mock it or think you're crazy just because they don't understand you - i totally understand where you're coming from with that. i've been in that situation before, and am sorry you are dealing with that. i've dealt with those same issues from various sources (intuitives and sensors alike). it's really not a perceiving type thing; it's an incompatibility thing.

it is so refreshing when you can come across someone with whom you can carry on a conversation without having to "translate" everything or without being disdained simply because you are not understood. it's awesome when you come across someone who enjoys discussing the same things you do.

my suggestion would be to find a place where you can talk with people who think similarly - maybe get your "fix" on PerC? i like conversing with people in threads on this forum because there are so many people here that "get" my way of thinking - this place is like a refuge for me in that respect. it feels wonderful to be understood. i totally understand your need for conversations on your level, which is the point of your thread, and i know you didn't come here to have everyone disagree with you - you wanted someone to commiserate, to find people who think the same way you do...if it's any encouragement, you will find a LOT of people who like to debate, or discuss ideas, on PerC... :) you sound like you'd really enjoy talking with people on the ENTP forum - have you tried it? there's a lot of debating/discussion of ideas over there - and devil's advocates - debates also spring up on various personality forums around here. there is also a debate forum on PerC, that you'd probably really like. i think you'll feel at home there. :)
 

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I can relate to lot that has been said so far. I have grown up in home dominated by SJ's. My brother is ISFJ and our relationship seems to fair far better than my relationship with my ESTJ mother. I do get along well with my ISTJ father who is bit more accepting of my nature. I often find it hard to relate to my mother since, we value different things however I am learning to be thankful for being raised by very practical, traditional and religious people. I will say that it can be trying being raised by ESTJ mother with a very strong personality, who thought i should be reflection of her in behavior, looks and values. As a teen this never really bothered me until i started to grow up then my mother was not very accepting and it put strain on our relationships.
I do not have that much in common with my SJ parents however, I spend most of my life trying to conform to their world view.
I have always felt like a little alien dropped into a family of people who just misunderstand you. I have come to accept that I will not get the level of acceptance and emotional validation I would like. I am able to have intellectual conversations and engage in artistic pursuits with my father. Unlike my father, my mother tries to make me conform to what she sees as acceptable and if you do not fit that you tend to feel slighted. I still love my parents but we see the world differently and their very structured, rigid and strict parenting style may have tempered my highly idealistic nature. My parents for all their strengths and weakness have made me think about certain practicalities in life that I might not otherwise focus on. Example: How to manage money well and the need for dedication to one's family, work and home. The level of sacrifice and duty you might have to make in order to weather hard times in life.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I really need more data on sensor/intuitive connections, and their similarities in cognition...humans are humans, differences can be bridged can't they? Ok, so it's not as easy as being with another intuitive but that doesn't mean sensors don't have the capacity to understand. I for the life of me don't understand why I was an intuitive vs. a sensor, and I wouldn't want to change for the world! I'm proud, and endlessly thankful for having such a wide and open mind, and receiving flashes of inspiration of lights, sounds, colors, and symbolism that depicts my inner world....I'm trying to find a way to express that inner world with those that want to know about it. Sometimes (as you all know, if you're prone to this kind of experience) INFJ's constantly experience these images, feelings, and deeply moving experiences...if I get into a relationship with an intuitive, or a sensor, I'd like to be able to share that with them; being alone in a 'relationship' isn't appealing at all to me, so to prepare for that potential situation, I focused on my obviously narrow experience with my family, which is primarily a group of sensors...this isn't a generalization statement, it was meant more to express my experiences I've had with them.

I realize most intuitives are deductive thinkers, meaning they start from the sky downward, and sensors start from the ground up, BUT eventually, we meet somewhere in the middle; when two deductive/inductive thinkers meet they usually work through a situation using the same manner/style of thinking, but is there a higher probability of coming up with a different outcome based on a different POV? I don't know, I'm really trying to understand how sensors think so I can bridge the proverbial gap with them.

I think being an NF is the problem; not that it's a problem in itself, but the level of my abstraction I combine with my feelings makes things a little more...'complex' I guess...it's simplicity to me, and I was always taught by my uncle (ENFJ) that if you increase the complexity/range of thought and feeling you grow as an individual; he literally took my mind, and stretched it as FAR as he could with that statement. That encouraged my intuitive mind to grow. I'm unapologetic for that, because my mind is SO rich, that I remain occupied and without a crying need for people for EXTENDED periods of time. It's a gift, and a curse I guess?
 

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I sympathize. My family = (ISxJ x 3) + INFJ.

I love my family, they're good people, but we drive each other nuts. I prefer the company of my friends, most of whom are fellow NFs or SPs.
 
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i seriously think it is more a matter of enneatype than it is of MBTI type or perceiving function
Every time I think to myself that I couldn't possibly love you more, you post something as beautifully thought out as this. :happy:

(And I do mean the whole post. I just snipped out most of it to keep it to the main point.)

Could you possibly be more awesome? :laughing:
 

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Every time I think to myself that I couldn't possibly love you more, you post something as beautifully thought out as this. :happy:

(And I do mean the whole post. I just snipped out most of it to keep it to the main point.)

Could you possibly be more awesome? :laughing:
you're sweet, thank you for the compliment. :) but actually this compliment is a mirror, because it takes a thorough thinker to appreciate a thorough thought. :)
 

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How does one go about recognizing, and meeting their needs?

-----That's the INFJ question! I'm glad you are asking it in your early 20s. I just started asking it in my mid-30s. Check out the links, below. The third link deals with needs in the context of breaking free of an affair (I am not having an affair, and I am not suggesting you are)--but it is still a good general tool. The "10 Steps to an Amazing INFJ Life" series has been life-changing for me. I am slowly implementing and working my way through them. Finding other like-minded souls is the first step:

My emotions were constantly invalidated, and I've always been a MASTER at balancing abstract thought, with a certain blend of pragmatism...in fact, I'm what I call, 'emotionally pragmatic' I won't share my emotions with a person, who doesn't utilize them, or respond to them in an understanding way. I think it's impractical to share your emotional state with everyone around you simply for the need to talk.

-----That is emotional common sense--you are quite right and wise to do so. I do the same thing, but I think of it in terms of empowerment. Caring is empowering, and in giving caring, I become responsible for the empowerment of those for whom I care. I choose to conserve my caring for caring people. I am a giver, and I do not want to empower takers. Listening to others' problems and emotions is taking on another's burden--and I choose carefully (or at least I try to) whose burdens I carry. I guess INFJs are lucky in that at least we can turn off Fe.
The world of humans isn't always a thing of beauty; but when you have a group of people dedicated to perfecting it, it can be. The process of creation of a desired abstraction can be JUST as exciting as creating the idea itself.
There's a beautiful thing created each and every time a person masters the balance of abstract thought and pragmatism; I look at it this way, as far as a mind can dream/expand, it's doubly important to make the idea work in real time.

-----Indeed, nothing is created in reality which is not envisioned in the imagination first.
I learned this; a sensible man can implement procedure, an intelligent man can understand how things work, and idealistic man can dream up what can become, and a balanced man can can create the IMPOSSIBLE. I strive to be the balanced man...I see limitations as a gate, not a stop sign; we must discover HOW to pass through them...there is a way.

-----I hope you forever keep that idealistic, imaginative, and visionary fire burning in your mind, heart, and soul.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
*shrug* l said l relate on some level because l do but in the title you suggest it is a due to an issue with sensors.
It wasn't about sensors in general, just the senors in my family of origin. I was bothered by the fact that we don't talk, and I can't figure out how to communicate with them without either them not understanding, because I use another type of reasoning (intuitive/divergent thinking) as opposed to them using sensing/convergent thinking)...the communication barrier itself was most irritating to me. I can admit that me seeing the many possibilities I'm granted by a situation helps me and I know this but with them, they just don't see anything beyond what their given...when you watch your family suffer, and you're an INFJ, regardless to how you feel personally, your ethics always rise up, and dictate your moves.

And then most of what you say implies that you think you're the only intellectual because you're intuitive. If that's not what you meant, l understand but that's how it reads lol.
When I say 'intellectual' I mean a person who enjoys abstract thought, or coming up with creative ways to implement ideas/theories. I just happen to be intuitive. No, my parents aren't intellectual types, they're more duty fullfillers, 'artisans' if you will.


S/N aside, the emphasis you placed on being the lone intellectual made me cringe a little but l was only teasing when l said l hated you ;)
In the house, I am the lone intellectual; I can't say it's because I'm an intuitive or a sensor, but because I actually AM the only intellectual type in my household; I am the only one that enjoys researching genetics, physics, molecular biology etc. I openly share my thoughts with them when I can to get feedback to see if they can correct flaws in my theory (becauase I know they're sensors, my mother of note, which is a ISTJ is brilliant at spotting flaws, and incremental steps lacking in my plans especially) so I thought to enlist the aide of my mother for her talents, but because she doesn't really care for the topic, I can't really communicate with them...

I've got no options; it's the WORST thing you can do to an intuitive, to silence their flow/connection to possibilities...it's like cutting off the flow to the universe...idk...any how I figure now we can just talk on ways to bridge that gap with them. I want to be able to show them my best side, and I'd like to think they'd do the same, but I'm no sensor so who am I to know if they would do that for me? ;)
 

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I've got no options; it's the WORST thing you can do to an intuitive, to silence their flow/connection to possibilities...it's like cutting off the flow to the universe...idk...any how I figure now we can just talk on ways to bridge that gap with them. I want to be able to show them my best side, and I'd like to think they'd do the same, but I'm no sensor so who am I to know if they would do that for me? ;)
I know it doesn't really help you now but from what I hear milestones in life or periods of extended separation can help because we can see people from different vantage points and realise that at times less contact is more... failing that we come to value our own inner strengths more from autonomy.
 

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It seems like since Sensors, for the most part, can't exactly see the forest for the trees, then they're alway muttering on about the same kinds of details. Soooooo many people in my life are sensors. It's ridiculous. I know a girl who's a sensor and she's always going on about her life, never taking interest in mine except for the formalities like "How's school?" "How have you been?" and that stuff. The thing is, ever since I was a kid, I had thought that there was something wrong with me because it always seemed like there wasn't much I could come up with to say to anyone (since most people are sensors talking about boring little details that never really caught my interest). But in reality it seems like they never really took the time to take any interest in myself so there's really nothing to feel bad about. It does suck though. It's just a shame that as a kid, I always felt weird because I felt like it was all my fault that I didn't have much to say to these people. It seems like so often, sensors will tend to ramble on about the obvious. Going into every single detail. I could go crazy sometimes.

Do you ever have those times when you are really interested in sharing your ideas and thoughts with someone only to get a, "Mmhmm." or "Yep. That's true" in return? I mean, I'm sure it's just the way they're naturally wired, not to be as interested for the most part in the overall picture. But it does make me feel really alone as an iNtuitive. It just seems like I go out of my way pretty often to at least try and carry on a conversation with them even if I'm really not interested in what they're saying, but then in return I feel like I don't get much of anything from them on their ideas about whatever I say.
 

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Do you ever have those times when you are really interested in sharing your ideas and thoughts with someone only to get a, "Mmhmm." or "Yep. That's true" in return? I mean, I'm sure it's just the way they're naturally wired, not to be as interested for the most part in the overall picture. But it does make me feel really alone as an iNtuitive. It just seems like I go out of my way pretty often to at least try and carry on a conversation with them even if I'm really not interested in what they're saying, but then in return I feel like I don't get much of anything from them on their ideas about whatever I say.
All the time, I guess this why I can be known to suck the energy of a social circle and start leading with passion, intensity or enthusiasm; thankfully I rarely ever do this because I try to follow social etiquette more, acting more humble even if I understand a topic well or oddly slip into 'breadcrumb mode' where a story or idea is shared but I pepper it with small laymans guides i.e. if I was talking about computers or psychology I may simplify ideas then continue incorporating 'new learning'.

Then again I much prefer to chat to people sharing my emotional or intellectual ranges, strangely this tends to be those 5-20+ years older than myself, when the 'wizened old soul' in me just becomes bored easily by shallowness or lack of emotional integration, instead seeking people who may challenge me or at least hold their own without crumbling to 'intellectual self- inadequacies'.
 
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