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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've heard about a way to classify 3s that's similar to the phobic/counter-phobic axis for 6s. It's called shame and counter-shame. The idea is that ALL 3s are difficult to get to know, but some make themselves appear greater than they really are while others make themselves appear lesser. The shame 3s can easily be mistaken for 9s, but the difference is that they purposely make themselves appear less than what they really are, while they know personally they are something greater. That's the deception of shame 3s--there's more to them than they let on. Nines in contrast don't really have this dissonance--they may very well be someone special, but they don't necessarily think they are.

Counter-shame 3s I think are much more obvious. They overtly seek out attention and glory and can be mistaken for 7s and 8s, or are just really obvious 3s.
 

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MOTM Aug 2010
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Yes, this concept is something I've heard about, too. I can see myself acting both ways. Sometimes I can surprise people with how humble I act, and I often do purposely downplay accomplishments to make myself seem like less of a show-off, but other times I genuinely enjoy showing off, much to the chagrin of others. So I suppose it's possible to lie somewhere in between the two extremes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'd compare being a shame 3 to being like a prince that sheds his royalty and lives among the peasants to be looked at as a normal person rather than royalty. I think I lean more towards that side of the axis most of the time. It takes a lot of pushing for me to really shine.

One of my favorite movies: Coming to America (1988)
 

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Actually, I'm HUGELY counterphobic. I didn't know that was a 6 thing, hmmm.

As for shame, I despise it ...

Honestly, I feel like my counterphobic tendency overrules any shame/counter-shame. One of my phobias that I counter is irrational defense mechanisms. I intentionally face shame, or else I'd be ashamed of not having faced it. I intentionally strengthen myself against it and see things as objectively as possible. I feel like this is healthy...?
 

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I'm starting to go the shame way because people are disliking my need to be the center of attention. I just feel like a horrible person, so I pretend to be kind of indifferent, a little humble, more normal.

I don't know... it's different. I wish I wasn't any three.
 

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I've heard about a way to classify 3s that's similar to the phobic/counter-phobic axis for 6s. It's called shame and counter-shame. The idea is that ALL 3s are difficult to get to know, but some make themselves appear greater than they really are while others make themselves appear lesser. The shame 3s can easily be mistaken for 9s, but the difference is that they purposely make themselves appear less than what they really are, while they know personally they are something greater. That's the deception of shame 3s--there's more to them than they let on. Nines in contrast don't really have this dissonance--they may very well be someone special, but they don't necessarily think they are.

Counter-shame 3s I think are much more obvious. They overtly seek out attention and glory and can be mistaken for 7s and 8s, or are just really obvious 3s.
Interesting. I used to think I was a 9 because of this. I have a TON of inner confidence and drive, but I present myself to others in a very humble manner. It might just be common sense, it might be maturity, it might be knowing the importance of not alienating friends, and it may be a good deception tool when necessary.
 

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Presenting yourself humbly like naming yourself God....Ah yes I see!

Na, I kid I kid.

I tend to be both on different occasions. When I'm around people I'm not afraid to go over the top with I'll go with the expansive counter-shame thing, a bit of satire. When I'm around people I respect/want to impress I tend to be more shame and kind-faced.
 

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The past two years have been quite a change for me. I think I'm still probably counter-shame, but lately I've become horrified at how pompous, self-aggrandizing and fake I used to be and the last couple of years have been a process at attempted redemption where I've deliberately tried to act humble even though that's still extremely hard for me in my heart of hearts. Would that be normal for a countershame type 3?
 

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@nevermore

I've never really seen a definitive thought on the "axis" of shame/countershame, but personally I think a 3 shifts through them. A 3 is constantly seeking authenticity, and some form of an identity, to be "worthy". 3's have an amazing eye for fake behavior, because they do it themselves, perhaps being found out as fake means you're losing.

I think you're moving towards health, rather than switching your shame axis, fake behavior is gross anyways.

Shame and Countershame are not dependent on health level, both can be very very fake. One overthrows themselves, buffing up their image so when they lose, it's not big deal because they are "awesome!". The other brings themselves down, so that when they succeed they are beautiful and full of glory. They are tools for the 3 to get what they need, health is not needing them (I don't think health is a constant, you'll switch forever).

Personally, I've always been a shame 3, I downplay just about everything I do. Somewhere, I know what I'm doing is awesome or good, but I never show that.
 

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@nevermore

I've never really seen a definitive thought on the "axis" of shame/countershame, but personally I think a 3 shifts through them. A 3 is constantly seeking authenticity, and some form of an identity, to be "worthy". 3's have an amazing eye for fake behavior, because they do it themselves, perhaps being found out as fake means you're losing.

I think you're moving towards health, rather than switching your shame axis, fake behavior is gross anyways.

Shame and Countershame are not dependent on health level, both can be very very fake. One overthrows themselves, buffing up their image so when they lose, it's not big deal because they are "awesome!". The other brings themselves down, so that when they succeed they are beautiful and full of glory. They are tools for the 3 to get what they need, health is not needing them (I don't think health is a constant, you'll switch forever).

Personally, I've always been a shame 3, I downplay just about everything I do. Somewhere, I know what I'm doing is awesome or good, but I never show that.
Ooh yes, have I got an eye for fake behaviour.:crazy: And yeah, it sucks. It's easy for a 3 to fall into it, but it doesn't help anyone in the end...ourselves or the people we're putting on the facade for.

Now that you describe both shame and countershame I recognize both traits in myself and have used both a lot, at times maybe even a little more of of the shame. I still think I have been countershame for most of my life, but I do think you're probably right when you say a lot of people switch back and forth.

Good to know you think I'm moving towards health, anyway.:happy:
 

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i know a 3w2 who likes to show off alot (countershame). however sometimes he will subtly brag by using this shame method as a means of making people more awed by his 'achievements'. he speaks in a quieter voice with less intonation and emphasise like it was an off the cuff remark or reluctant admission, but in reality you can tell he'd been thinking about it beforehand and wanted people to know about it. subtley steering the conversation to a topic where he could bring it up.

however i've always admired the confidence of 3s and what they can achieve when pledging their allegiance to a worthy cause outside themselves.
 

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I'm a 4w3 and I can display both shame and counter-shame. I hate to appear arrogant (I hate when anyone is arrogant), yet I also like to share my successes and abilities. I'm a tough critic on myself, though, so I lean towards playing down my abilities.
 

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The Wisdom of the enneagram book: the sole aim of my existence it that let me become the objects of the admiration and the desire. ( excuse me for the potential clerical error, not my mother tongue )
 
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