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Discussion Starter #1
I assume there are much more Americans here in this community.

This thread is maybe about the difference between "SJs in Asian culture" and in the West.

some people don't believe in temperament theory and/or personality typing, believing that environment is more influential in one's personality but for those of us who think that temperament/personality typing is overlooked more than people realize, what could we say is the striking difference between SJs in an Asian culture versus the West?

Like there are people here who are Americans who have a thing or two to say about SJs (or how much they dislike them, really - I will say most people who come here have a thing to dislike about the SJs maybe because most of the personality types here are N or something) but what more in the Asian culture when they are more traditional and the likes?

Is it fascinating that most people who come here and dislike the SJ temperament (ESTJ/ESFJ especially) are from the West? How about from the Asian culture where people are supposedly more traditional, conservative, family-oriented and is "expected to follow the path" ? You would think that people who have a thing against 'traditional people who don't want to disrupt the status quo' will be coming from an Asian culture so maybe they have learned to rebel or something but alas, if this is a personality type thing, SJs (the stereotypical symbol for tradition and guardianship- and also somehow a symbol of Asian cultures) seem to be universally hated (atleast in personality typing forums I assume)

Discuss what you can say about the matter.
 

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odd this hasn't got any replies yet--I have been wondering myself on a similar topic

I think the bad rap (rep?) comes from not the type but the individual who was nasty by nature. When they're awful, they can reach far I guess compared to some types...
I myself have met very little. Most esjs I've got along with are mild-mannered, and one sensitive one.

As for this topic,the truth is that it may actually be the same. a lot of my Asian acquaintances have similar stories on going against their parents' wishes.
in fact I believe this to be so big or common it is its own film genre lol! seriously. it is very easy to find a movie that centers around this (for example, filipino--perhaps Chinese?).

on a more serious note what about increase of suicide or hikikomori-- whenever these subjects are explained I find they refer to this sort of pressure to fit a box
 
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SJs are far more dominant in the East. A thick fog of Si-Fe lies over much of Asia, preventing most other things from emerging from it. Because they are so dominant, SJness is questioned less and accepted more the way you accept that it's air you breathe. It's like questioning and criticising the king in Thailand: it is simply not done, ever.

That said, I'm a European who has lived in Asia but not in America so I'm poorly versed in what SJness looks like in the US. I do know what it looks like in Asia.
 

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I imagine SJs in Asian culture are the parents that want their children to become doctors or something like that. I am completely ignorant of asian culture and have no idea what you really mean when you say asian culture, all I know actually are those stereotypes of the parents coming to america and wanting their kid to be a doctor. Or super traditional you must past down the family name type of parents or something. SJ conversatives in america usually side with anything that is traditionally america, guns and apple pie, or something lol. And they can be resistant to change, the much older ones at least, like not getting a smart phone or something like that.

High Si users are probably the types most molded by their environment culture, and past history also. A black SJ in America can be very different from a White SJ in America. Both championing 2 different kind of past histories that their culture was built on. And a southern SJ will be different from a northern SJ. Northern SJ most commonly will be a white collar worker business like kind of city slicker, while southern SJ most commonly would be a farmer or countryman who grown up in a small town. Northern SJ would think southern SJ is some simple minded country boy, southern SJ would think northern SJ is some privileged cityboy who has never done a hard days work in his life. You want to figure out what an SJ is like, look at their history.
 

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SJs do quite well in America in my opinion. This could be because they are the majority (see the link).
https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/my-mbti-results/how-frequent-is-my-type.htm?bhcp=1

Supposedly America values Extroversion and pragmatism (T) highly. There is a focus on business, boldness in speaking, and organization. I've seen America characterized as valuing characteristics that are ESTJs the most. Our current (place whatever rude words you would like to here) president is likely ESTP.
America is a really big country and there are multiple cultures. Northeastern America has values for a very brash straight forward fast talk-- very SJ in my opinion. The South and Middle America have deep roots in their traditions-- also dominated by SJs. I have actually wondered if my home state is unusually N heavy, or if just my family and my friends were pretty much all N's... actually I think there is a bigger percentile than in most states.. it seems like N and specifically xNTJ was valued in leadership, also ENFP in leadership, but where is a xNTJ not valued? But my home state (Utah) is very different than most of America, especially when it comes to economics and... yeah... actually the attitude is very different.. much more forward thinking, much more value on "out of the box" thinking. The Mountains (especially Colorado, Utah, Arizona...and Wyoming actually have a couple of super intelligent little microcosm towns, surprisingly enough) and the West Coast are just more loose and open-- P and N more valued, but it's not like SJs do poorly. I would say that California especially seems to value perceivers. Washington seems to tolerate a bit more intuitive and perceiving. My current state (in the Pacific Northwest) values ESFJ... it's a very feeling state, they also seem likely to get blind-sided and are stuck in their ways... total ESFJ.

Conversely, American FILM values individualism, spontaneity, extroversion and this influences the way America is perceived by other countries as being very open and individualistic. People talk about there being a very skewed number of ENFPs in Hollywood. Walt Disney was ENFP as well.

Oh... hey @Lord Pixel I see we both thought of Northern SJs, Southern SJs... all the different SJ cultures. lol.

Edit: According to this the only thing that I am right about when it comes to Western states is that Utah and Wyoming are VERY VERY different from the other states. Check it out:https://www.16personalities.com/articles/personality-geography-of-the-united-states
 

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Discussion Starter #6
odd this hasn't got any replies yet--I have been wondering myself on a similar topic

I think the bad rap (rep?) comes from not the type but the individual who was nasty by nature. When they're awful, they can reach far I guess compared to some types...
I myself have met very little. Most esjs I've got along with are mild-mannered, and one sensitive one.

As for this topic,the truth is that it may actually be the same. a lot of my Asian acquaintances have similar stories on going against their parents' wishes.
in fact I believe this to be so big or common it is its own film genre lol! seriously. it is very easy to find a movie that centers around this (for example, filipino--perhaps Chinese?).

on a more serious note what about increase of suicide or hikikomori-- whenever these subjects are explained I find they refer to this sort of pressure to fit a box
I think the movie "Crazy Rich Asians" addresses this.
 

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Since this is an NJ forum, why the SJ related post? ... Just sayin!

As an ENTP I literally cannot do Si. It haunts me. I am amazed by people who can be on time and dot the i's and cross the t's. When I arrive I burst past all their efforts in no time, but they still ding me for not being on time. I think Si's are simply insane. The turtle really DOES NOT win, sorry.
 

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SJs do quite well in America in my opinion. This could be because they are the majority (see the link).
https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/my-mbti-results/how-frequent-is-my-type.htm?bhcp=1

Supposedly America values Extroversion and pragmatism (T) highly. There is a focus on business, boldness in speaking, and organization. I've seen America characterized as valuing characteristics that are ESTJs the most. Our current (place whatever rude words you would like to here) president is likely ESTP.
America is a really big country and there are multiple cultures. Northeastern America has values for a very brash straight forward fast talk-- very SJ in my opinion. The South and Middle America have deep roots in their traditions-- also dominated by SJs. I have actually wondered if my home state is unusually N heavy, or if just my family and my friends were pretty much all N's... actually I think there is a bigger percentile than in most states.. it seems like N and specifically xNTJ was valued in leadership, also ENFP in leadership, but where is a xNTJ not valued? But my home state (Utah) is very different than most of America, especially when it comes to economics and... yeah... actually the attitude is very different.. much more forward thinking, much more value on "out of the box" thinking. The Mountains (especially Colorado, Utah, Arizona...and Wyoming actually have a couple of super intelligent little microcosm towns, surprisingly enough) and the West Coast are just more loose and open-- P and N more valued, but it's not like SJs do poorly. I would say that California especially seems to value perceivers. Washington seems to tolerate a bit more intuitive and perceiving. My current state (in the Pacific Northwest) values ESFJ... it's a very feeling state, they also seem likely to get blind-sided and are stuck in their ways... total ESFJ.

Conversely, American FILM values individualism, spontaneity, extroversion and this influences the way America is perceived by other countries as being very open and individualistic. People talk about there being a very skewed number of ENFPs in Hollywood. Walt Disney was ENFP as well.

Oh... hey @Lord Pixel I see we both thought of Northern SJs, Southern SJs... all the different SJ cultures. lol.

Edit: According to this the only thing that I am right about when it comes to Western states is that Utah and Wyoming are VERY VERY different from the other states. Check it out:https://www.16personalities.com/articles/personality-geography-of-the-united-states
Yea I think Cali is very P and the west is probably more NP. I think Oregon is full blown NP lol. Portland is NP captial lol.

Walt being an ENFP makes alot of sense and it still seems to be the spirit of his films even today seeing how many of those Disney princesses are ENFP lol. "I want to go on an adventure to some distant land." And she eventually goes on impulse lol. It makes sense because an ENFP character is very inprising and that's what the films aim to be.

I also think poster boy for America is ESTJ. ESTJ is like a cardboard cutout of your everyday American values. Like...Buzz Lightyear or something.
 

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American is traditionally individualistic, while Asia is traditionally collectivist. SJ seems to be fit in better with a collectivist kind of mindset. Or, from virtue of being the most common type, they are what the rest of a collectivist society gravitates toward. Chicken or the egg thing.
 

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dot the i's and cross the t's
You are blaming your incapability to do this on your type? You have to be kidding me right? Some of you sound downright obsessed with relating every stupid little thing back to typology.

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Let's see, I spent about 20 years in Asia and 17 years in the West.

There isn't much of a difference in how they function except in the culture and environment itself. The interesting thing to look at here is how the SJ's function within the culture and how they influence it - but given that Jung's 8 types are all present at likely the same levels, you have pretty much similar differences.

The thing I've noticed about SP's and NF's in Asian cultures is that they tend to create and live inside protective bubbles where a lot of their misunderstood and underappreciated behaviors are exhibited within protective circles amongst each other .. and their influence society by and large is more covert than obvious. Most simply leave the most oppressive regions. I have no quips about claiming that Asian SJ's are (especially around South Asia and The Middle East) are stuck somewhere 100-500 years behind western societies. Even most of the most progressive minded South Asians (the civil society as we like to call it) openly admit and lament this.

My view on this is that it was not the Pakistani SJ's that did this, but that this is the legacy of the British Raj which efed Pakistan and India up the arse and just stole everything they could and left it behind to fend for itself .. while sucking the most intelligent minds from that region into their society.

The way the processes themselves work doesn't change. The differences are not in personality, but in how the societies themselves function. All you need to do is examine the differences in cultures themselves in order to relate it back to the process.
 
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but given that Jung's 8 types are all present at likely the same levels
I don't think that is the case. I only have my gut feeling to go by, but I don't think the types are evenly distributed across the world. As you say, NFs/NTs etc. in Asia learn not to exhibit too much of their aberrant traits whereas those traits are more accepted/tolerated in other parts of the world, but even so ... I just can't see that there would be an equal distribution of Ns between, say, South East Asia and Northern Europe.

Where I grew up (Northern Sweden), my N traits were welcomed, encouraged, appreciated. I was repeatedly told to be more of myself, keep doing what I do, and I'm pretty sure several of my teachers were NFs and NTs. It's not that SJs are not the majority, but I definitely feel that there are more NFs and NTs and you can openly display many of those traits (hi-speed Ne-doms are probably frowned upon though, my ENTP brother always has been).

In South East Asia, you simply can't do that. You will be ostracised more or less quietly, frozen out, told you're wrong. You will be repeatedly told to do what everyone else does, be what they are, want what they want. Family, career, stability. Those are the only right things to want and everyone should want them. If you don't, something is wrong with you and this will be repeatedly pointed out to you, generally passive-aggressively.

I may be wrong, but I feel that SP traits are not ostracised quite as much in South Asia as they are in East Asia. Unless you can channel your SP energy into something acceptable like sports, you won't find much acceptance for it in, say, Singapore.
 

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I don't think that is the case. I only have my gut feeling to go by, but I don't think the types are evenly distributed across the world. As you say, NFs/NTs etc. in Asia learn not to exhibit too much of their aberrant traits whereas those traits are more accepted/tolerated in other parts of the world, but even so ... I just can't see that there would be an equal distribution of Ns between, say, South East Asia and Northern Europe.

Where I grew up (Northern Sweden), my N traits were welcomed, encouraged, appreciated. I was repeatedly told to be more of myself, keep doing what I do, and I'm pretty sure several of my teachers were NFs and NTs. It's not that SJs are not the majority, but I definitely feel that there are more NFs and NTs and you can openly display many of those traits (hi-speed Ne-doms are probably frowned upon though, my ENTP brother has always been).

In South East Asia, you simply can't do that. You will be ostracised more or less quietly, frozen out, told you're wrong. You will be repeatedly told to do what everyone else does, be what they are, want what they want. Family, career, stability. Those are the only right things to want and everyone should want them. If you don't, something is wrong with you and this will be repeatedly pointed out to you, generally passive-aggressively.

I may be wrong, but I feel that SP traits are not ostracised quite as much in South Asia as they are in East Asia. Unless you can channel your SP energy into something acceptable like sports, you won't find much acceptance for it in, say, Singapore.
I don't disagree with what you said. But I do think that unless we do some empirical studies in the east we can't really answer this with any level of precision.

I do know for a fact that at least in South Asia, the NF's, SP's and even SFP's tend to do poorly overall. Their divorce rates are higher (analysis is based on my own friends and social circle including myself), their job dissatisfaction is higher, their immersion in society is low .. So almost all of them tend to prefer to migrate or find a way out. The ones who can't leave tend to resign themselves to living mediocre lives.

Edit: Just to add, even the ENFJ's I know in Pakistani society (especially the girls) all have this side to them where they constantly express dissatisfaction and emptiness with their place in society until they get married and then they pretty much just ignore their intuition entirely opting to pretty much entirely become reliant on Fe-Se to get by. They stop with the desire to change the world, but rather prefer to try to infuse their values and progressive attitudes in their children. I knew this one ENFJ who used to come to me to talk about her crisis of faith and desire to be an agnostic, but over time I started noticing that instead of drifting towards atheism as I did, she used her crisis of faith to become a born again muslim (this is a phenomena I closely associate with ENFJs) .. donned the hijab, married a guy with a beard and just settled down.
 

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You are blaming your incapability to do this on your type? You have to be kidding me right? Some of you sound downright obsessed with relating every stupid little thing back to typology.
I assume the rest of your post was not directed at me, but at the other thread discussion.

Yes! I do blame ENTP, and Ne/Ti looping in particular, because it is right to do so. These traits CAUSE the tragicomical effect common to ENTPs where we 'sweat the small stuff'. Filling out a form is worse to me than physical combat. That is no joke. Tedious, ultimately useless and procedural tasks are anathema to my soul. Having spoken with hundreds of other ENTPs, I am easily satisfied to count our situation a fact in evidence.

Typology MATTERS. It helps us understand ourselves. Gaining insight into WHY my personality is so very tragicomical and so consistently inconsistent has aided me greatly, beyond ANY OTHER FACTOR, in resisting my tendencies. It is not fate attacking me. It is my own tendencies and thought patterns, mostly. I have used typology to assist people beyond multiple failures of professional psychologists. The one size fits all philosophy of so many so-called sciences and social reckoning, is just ... stupid, not to put too fine a point on it.

All aspects of typology are a watershed of assistance in self growth. The MBTI was one level but the enneagram was like 4 more, and it's great fun at parties. ;)
 

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I assume the rest of your post was not directed at me, but at the other thread discussion.

Yes! I do blame ENTP, and Ne/Ti looping in particular, because it is right to do so. These traits CAUSE the tragicomical effect common to ENTPs where we 'sweat the small stuff'. Filling out a form is worse to me than physical combat. That is no joke. Tedious, ultimately useless and procedural tasks are anathema to my soul. Having spoken with hundreds of other ENTPs, I am easily satisfied to count our situation a fact in evidence.

Typology MATTERS. It helps us understand ourselves. Gaining insight into WHY my personality is so very tragicomical and so consistently inconsistent has aided me greatly, beyond ANY OTHER FACTOR, in resisting my tendencies. It is not fate attacking me. It is my own tendencies and thought patterns, mostly. I have used typology to assist people beyond multiple failures of professional psychologists. The one size fits all philosophy of so many so-called sciences and social reckoning, is just ... stupid, not to put too fine a point on it.

All aspects of typology are a watershed of assistance in self growth. The MBTI was one level but the enneagram was like 4 more, and it's great fun at parties. ;)
So after spending all those years learning about the system, have you finally gained mastery over the i's and t's? ;)
 
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Edit: Just to add, even the ENFJ's I know in Pakistani society (especially the girls) all have this side to them where they constantly express dissatisfaction and emptiness with their place in society until they get married and then they pretty much just ignore their intuition entirely opting to pretty much entirely become reliant on Fe-Se to get by. They stop with the desire to change the world, but rather prefer to try to infuse their values and progressive attitudes in their children. I knew this one ENFJ who used to come to me to talk about her crisis of faith and desire to be an agnostic, but over time I started noticing that instead of drifting towards atheism as I did, she used her crisis of faith to become a born again muslim (this is a phenomena I closely associate with ENFJs) .. donned the hijab, married a guy with a beard and just settled down.
Sidenote, but my ENTP brother has decided to stay with the Christian sect we grew up in and which I left in my 20s. He doesn't really believe in any of the tenets and finds the environment intellectually stifling for obvious reasons, but more or less his entire life (family, friends etc.) is invested in it and he finds it simply too much trouble to up and leave. He's probably 8w7 and I think his dominant instinct is SO - he has a heavy focus on having a decent social life, which is something I've never had. My leaving had no social impact because I didn't hang out with anyone anyway.

I can imagine ENFJs behaving the way you describe, I've seen NFs do it in various churches/sects. NTs more rarely, my brother being a sad exception. It's sad to witness the intellectual self-mutilation it involves. I'm too 9 to press the issue much, but I do feed him good books and maybe he'll be ready to leave once his kids have grown up.
 

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So after spending all those years learning about the system, have you finally gained mastery over the i's and t's? ;)
Well, yes in general, and no specifically. The beast in its natural state is still predisposed to sound his barbaric Yop! Self restraint has earned me much in the way of wisdom. But now I see the lack of wisdom in everything and it burns. I keep Yopping! But it seems like there is no Horton listening.
 
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Sidenote, but my ENTP brother has decided to stay with the Christian sect we grew up in and which I left in my 20s. He doesn't really believe in any of the tenets and finds the environment intellectually stifling for obvious reasons, but more or less his entire life (family, friends etc.) is invested in it and he finds it simply too much trouble to up and leave. He's probably 8w7 and I think his dominant instinct is SO - he has a heavy focus on having a decent social life, which is something I've never had. My leaving had no social impact because I didn't hang out with anyone anyway.

I can imagine ENFJs behaving the way you describe, I've seen NFs do it in various churches/sects. NTs more rarely, my brother being a sad exception. It's sad to witness the intellectual self-mutilation it involves. I'm too 9 to press the issue much, but I do feed him good books and maybe he'll be ready to leave once his kids have grown up.
I don't put much stock in Enneagram tbh, but if I know my enneatypes and correlations, are you sure he's not an ESFJ 2 who can have the the external appearance of an ENTP 8? Similar functions, just in a different order (FeSiNeTi vs NeTiFeSi) and I believe that 2's disintegrate to 8.

Obviously you know your brother better so I'm not going to argue on his type, but it's just a little hard for me to associate ENTPs with cults *shrug*.
 
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I don't put much stock in Enneagram tbh, but if I know my enneatypes and correlations, are you sure he's not an ESFJ 2 who can have the the external appearance of an ENTP 8? Similar functions, just in a different order (FeSiNeTi vs NeTiFeSi) and I believe that 2's disintegrate to 8.

Obviously you know your brother better so I'm not going to argue on his type, but it's just a little hard for me to associate ENTPs with cults *shrug*.
No, he's definitely an ENTP. Thing is, where we grew up, everyone belongs to this particular church, and many church members never end up making friends outside of it. It's not like being a muslim in Saudi Arabia, but locally there are similarities. Your entire life grows up around the church, often even your job is somehow related to it.

I guess it's not so much a cult as something of an amish-like remnant of ancient times ... more of an ethnic group than a real religion in many ways. They do embrace technology though, so they're not amish in that sense.

He feels very conflicted and keeps talking to me since there is almost no one else he can talk to, he's very ENTP in his interests and loves to talk about them. We'll talk about AI one day, Europe's future the next, move on to Freud/Jung/Frankl and on it goes. But leaving would mean betraying his ESFJ wife of almost 20 years, forcing his numerous kids to abandon everything they know, and creating a new life for himself completely outside the social framework he has always existed in. So for now, he mostly shares his thoughts with me and I think one other non-religious friend, and accepts the social necessity of staying put. It's definitely making him very fidgety.

I used to dismiss the Enneagram, too, until I realised how perfectly it describes me. My brother has always been very social, but not for the sake of being social ... he wants to talk about all the thoughts and ideas he keeps having. We've been talking a fair bit about MBTI recently, and I half suspect he'll join this place soon. Haven't mentioned it to him, I like my anonymity.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Since this is an NJ forum, why the SJ related post? ... Just sayin!

As an ENTP I literally cannot do Si. It haunts me. I am amazed by people who can be on time and dot the i's and cross the t's. When I arrive I burst past all their efforts in no time, but they still ding me for not being on time. I think Si's are simply insane. The turtle really DOES NOT win, sorry.
Ok, I'll bring in the thread to your type forum. :)

Here goes: https://www.personalitycafe.com/entp-forum-visionaries/1290009-sjs-asian-culture-comparison-sjs-west.html#post42710727


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I'm not a fan of bad SJs so for people like me I think SJs who I am not going to get along with in Asia are probably more annoying, to put it nicely.
 
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I'm not a fan of bad SJs so for people like me I think SJs who I am not going to get along with in Asia are probably more annoying, to put it nicely.
Mostly SJs are more dominant in Asia ... in the US, there are places you can go to and not be dominated by them, but you'd really struggle to find anywhere in East Asia where they'd leave you alone. This mostly applies if you are from Asia, white Westerners like myself generally get special treatment in much of Asia, perhaps Japan and increasingly parts of China excluded. My INFP ex is from Singapore and I've had my arse licked by someone who immediately proceeded to treat her with contempt, in my presence.

She has been told her entire life that she is W.R.O.N.G. and must change and essentially become an SJ. Much of it is passive-aggressive, backstabbing, whispering behind your back kind of stuff, but the SJ domination is so total that generally they'll automatically assume that you're an SJ too and keep treating you with increasing suspicion when they realise you're different. Of course you want to advance your career (ideally through arse-licking and backstabbing), of course you want to marry, of course you want kids, of course you want to buy a home with your wife/husband, of course that's all there is to life.

Thailand is called the Land of Smiles because everyone wears a fake Fe smile. Scratch the surface a bit and you'll find a cesspool of xenophobia, aggressive nationalism, king worship, ruthless greed and blind traditionalism. Thailand is quite possibly the world's most religious country - it's very lucky that they are adherents of Buddhism instead of, say, Islam. The whole country is covered in so thick an Si-Fe blanket that you'd need to dig dozens of feet before finding anything else.

It's a very nice country.
 
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