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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I gave my ISFJ crush (she's my co-teacher) her birthday gift today. Included were a coffee bean grinder and coffee beans (she loves coffee), a cookbook that the title sounded like her (she likes to cook), a letter writing about my gratitude towards her, and Pop Rocks (just for fun).

She was really excited and happy about it, I pretended it wasn't a big deal. She thanked me and said I was too sweet. Cool.

She is, indeed, "dating" her best friend (though I think he's a placeholder -- body language tells me she likes him, but doesn't LIKE him. I think he's emotional support for her since she broke up with her 4 year boyfriend back in January, who she STILL writes the occasional status about). He's heading back to his hometown after school is over (up north, we are in the south). He got her flowers & chocolates. I told NO ONE about my giving her a gift.

I overheard the English teacher (our grade level team leader) about us after I was done talking to her. She was telling another teacher (this is as much as I heard) -- "look at her. It's hot because they both really like each other, but neither will budge and do anything about it." I asked her, "what did you say?" She responded. "Oh nothing."

I am unsure whether it will happen next month, next year, or in 3 years, but my gut is telling me she and I are going to happen EVENTUALLY. Apparently, a day that I was out, she told our students they could ask her anything they want. They asked what she thought about me. She responded, "he's a pleasure to work with." When they asked her about dating me, she said, "NO NO NO NO NO." Something deep down tells me, those "no's" were real denial.

Time will tell.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Or you just ask her :shocked:
She has a "boyfriend," which she pointed out to me a couple of times the past few days (not explicitly using the word, but implying it casually). It's her best friend. They were best friends for about 2 years now, but what is funny is that the best friend was really good friends with her ex-boyfriend. He moved back home after the breakup, and he kind of took over.

What is even weirder is they were PHYSICALLY "close" even around the boyfriend, who I think dismissed it as "they just really tight." I wouldn't let ANY guy, not even my best friend in the world, get as close to my girlfriend as this guy did.

Still, I remember asking her about him in July of last year. "Ew. He's like a brother to me." Even reading their body language now, it seems that she's SOMEWHAT attracted to him, but it also seems like he is MUCH into her than she is him. I think he's just comfortable and she misses the physical (and emotional) closeness she had with a guy. Hence the name "Mr. Placeholder."

I'm a respectful guy. I will remain mum until they are over (which, IME, best friends dating ALWAYS ends up in a place of "this is weird, we're best friends, lets stop this NOW!) I've thrown the ball into her court VERY explicitly, so it's up to her if she wants to ask (ISFJ girl, grow some cojones.).
 

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The only thing that will tell will be the reason she emphatically said NO repeatedly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The only thing that will tell will be the reason she emphatically said NO repeatedly.
25 11 yr olds all annoying you with the same question, and her being absolutely honest will go back to the guy she's seeing (only temporarily) that works in the same school.

She has yet to give me an emphatic "no" to my face, and the flirting is pretty mutual (lest we are being especially professional on certain days).
 

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ISFJ's take a long time to get over past close relationships. They need time to mull things over and work out their feelings. Breaking up in January is still a "recent" breakup. Just sayin'. Good job on the gifts, sounds like she was genuinely pleased and appreciative =)
 

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I really think you should be more careful than you're being. My instincts as a woman are to not embarrass anyone who shows an interest in me when I don't feel the same way. I do what I can to allow the person to "save face". There isn't ever a two-faced approach to this- meaning I don't say NO to school children but YES to you. She's dating someone, yes, but you realize now that if she shifts and dates you that makes her a liar to the students?

This isn't something you should take lightly. Nothing is for appearance sake, alone. Integrity is important. You're gauging her behavior with a new S.O. when in public- when in places you can see. You have no idea how they are in terms of physical body language when you're nowhere within peering range.

If you can't tell me right now exactly how it is that she, personally, wants to be loved, I'd further venture to say you don't stand a chance at all.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I really think you should be more careful than you're being. My instincts as a woman are to not embarrass anyone who shows an interest in me when I don't feel the same way. I do what I can to allow the person to "save face". There isn't ever a two-faced approach to this- meaning I don't say NO to school children but YES to you. She's dating someone, yes, but you realize now that if she shifts and dates you that makes her a liar to the students?

This isn't something you should take lightly. Nothing is for appearance sake, alone. Integrity is important. You're gauging her behavior with a new S.O. when in public- when in places you can see. You have no idea how they are in terms of physical body language when you're nowhere within peering range.

If you can't tell me right now exactly how it is that she, personally, wants to be loved, I'd further venture to say you don't stand a chance at all.
I think what you're saying here goes far and beyond the realms of MBTI (where the "ISFJ" label doesn't mean anything). For all I know, as a human being, she got over her 4 year relationship in a single day (though observation would say far from otherwise). Maybe she and her best friend are deeply in love. However, in context of ISFJ (and from ISFJs I've known in the past), I think @Zen Lizard is more correct about her -- she is far from over her ex, and her best friend is the "easy & safe" placeholder. A guy she REALLY likes, but doesn't REALLY LIKE.

Almost AS SOON as she ended it with her ex, she jumped to Tinder, Hinge, and dating friends of friends. That's behavior of a person who is struggling to get over her relationship.

I'm fairly certain she has liked me (maybe still does, who knows), and we've briefly discussed it in the past (I told her that we are co-workers and as long as that is true, we could never get involved with each other). My theory is that because he is leaving to the other side of the country AND they are best friends (and he was clearly into her since she was dating her ex), he's more of an "eh....he'll do for now. Fills a need." I could be wrong, but I VERY HIGHLY doubt it.

My approach is simple, and I think it's VERY careful. I put the ball in her court, and then I continue to live my life. If she decides to, SHE can call ME. I don't think this is overstepping any bounds or making anyone uncomfortable. I'm leaving the school (and I think she is too). All I'm saying is, I'm in a decent position where I stand.

Also, the whole "lying to the students" thing is silly. Teachers ALWAYS do this, and sometimes, VERY understandably so. If the kids knew she DID like me (if she did), that would not go over well at all. It's in EVERYONE'S best interest if she just denies it and lets it blow over.
 
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How serious is this boyfriend of hers? It really doesn't sound serious at all. But her writing love messages about her ex on Facebook does. I wouldn't move in right away, because obviously she is still thinking about this other guy while with her current boyfriend. You don't want to replace her current boyfriend right away, because then you will become the placeholder as again she hasn't moved on yet. But continue buying her nice things. Perhaps even ask her out as a friend, take her out nice places, to give her someone new to obsess about. After some time of becoming close, you will be able to make your move even if she is dating because if she is interested in you she will lose interest in her placeholder and replace him with you. Then the placeholder dilemma is solved, and you have the girl. Unless, well, she wasn't interested in the first place.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
How serious is this boyfriend of hers? It really doesn't sound serious at all. But her writing love messages about her ex on Facebook does. I wouldn't move in right away, because obviously she is still thinking about this other guy while with her current boyfriend. You don't want to replace her current boyfriend right away, because then you will become the placeholder as again she hasn't moved on yet. But continue buying her nice things. Perhaps even ask her out as a friend, take her out nice places, to give her someone new to obsess about. After some time of becoming close, you will be able to make your move even if she is dating because if she is interested in you she will lose interest in her placeholder and replace him with you. Then the placeholder dilemma is solved, and you have the girl. Unless, well, she wasn't interested in the first place.
I agree with you (except for the "keep buying her shit" -- I think ISFJs will see right through that).

Actually, I think I'm in a pretty good position. Like I said, "boyfriend" was her best friend of 2 years (also a good friend of her ex). As soon as she broke up with her ex, she scrambled to start dating again (all those stupid phone apps and what not). Now, she no longer uses them because she's dating her best friend (who, I could tell, was always into her). Personally, I don't think she's into it 100%.

I do believe she isn't completely over her ex, but she is getting there. From what I've gathered, he still tries to be a part of her life, and she allows him to be, but she has already decided that it's over between the both of them. He still struggles with this, yet they still talk to each other from time to time. Recently, she went to a friend's wedding, he was there, and she told me it was rough (he got drunk and cried quite a bit).

Really, all I can do is wait. I put in my letter to her from the gift how she still owes me lunch (she was trying to buy me lunch for a while b/c I was always helping her with things). I hope she cashes in in form of a date.

Again, time will tell.
 

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None of what I said came through as, "Be careful with your heart." did it? I'm sorry. Looks like I need to work on that.
 

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I agree with you (except for the "keep buying her shit" -- I think ISFJs will see right through that).

Actually, I think I'm in a pretty good position. Like I said, "boyfriend" was her best friend of 2 years (also a good friend of her ex). As soon as she broke up with her ex, she scrambled to start dating again (all those stupid phone apps and what not). Now, she no longer uses them because she's dating her best friend (who, I could tell, was always into her). Personally, I don't think she's into it 100%.

I do believe she isn't completely over her ex, but she is getting there. From what I've gathered, he still tries to be a part of her life, and she allows him to be, but she has already decided that it's over between the both of them. He still struggles with this, yet they still talk to each other from time to time. Recently, she went to a friend's wedding, he was there, and she told me it was rough (he got drunk and cried quite a bit).

Really, all I can do is wait. I put in my letter to her from the gift how she still owes me lunch (she was trying to buy me lunch for a while b/c I was always helping her with things). I hope she cashes in in form of a date.

Again, time will tell.
Ok, so I shouldn't have to tell you that she can't be talking to her ex at all before it is the appropriate move? I may sound a bit controlling by saying this, but when we were still dating I isolated all of the men who were after my fiancée, because in the future I knew-- there was no room for people like that in our lives and since every date is essentially an interview with a woman you want to spend a lifetime with, it's important to see how much they are willing to commit to you. If she is still talking to this guy, she is still very much interested in him and you'll be a placeholder the moment you break it up.

I'm not telling you to hand her items randomly, every day. Just do it when an occasion arises that seems fitting. Perhaps a thank you present when June rolls around for her being such a great help in your classroom? Otherwise I'm telling you to go out of your way for her, to slowly reel her in until she stops talking to her ex boyfriend or thinking about him. Then you can steal her current boyfriend's spot since he'll most likely be gone, and you won't have to worry about being just a placeholder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ok, so I shouldn't have to tell you that she can't be talking to her ex at all before it is the appropriate move? I may sound a bit controlling by saying this, but when we were still dating I isolated all of the men who were after my fiancée, because in the future I knew-- there was no room for people like that in our lives and since every date is essentially an interview with a woman you want to spend a lifetime with, it's important to see how much they are willing to commit to you. If she is still talking to this guy, she is still very much interested in him and you'll be a placeholder the moment you break it up.

I'm not telling you to hand her items randomly, every day. Just do it when an occasion arises that seems fitting. Perhaps a thank you present when June rolls around for her being such a great help in your classroom? Otherwise I'm telling you to go out of your way for her, to slowly reel her in until she stops talking to her ex boyfriend or thinking about him. Then you can steal her current boyfriend's spot since he'll most likely be gone, and you won't have to worry about being just a placeholder.
Exactly. I plan on moving REALLY slowly with her. Hell, I will date a few girls in between if the situation arises. Everything I do at this point is planting a seed. I don't plan on making any sort of move until I am certain she is ready to dedicate herself 100% to me. If she's spreading herself out, I'm not that interested.
@Sweetish that is sound advice. I am being INCREDIBLY careful with my heart. I'm already jaded about this love thing anyways, so that helps.
 

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:laughing: You know when two Ni users are in the field when they're talking about long, LONG term strategies and elaborate contingent plans to gradually erode the competition to nonentities lol! Goliath's post highly amused me; so much Ni-Te of elimination of inefficiencies that get in the way of your long term objective. If there's one thing to be admired about Ni-doms, they can forgo the present because they have the bigger picture in mind and know they'll win the long term game.

Anyway OP, I've been following the thread(s) -- which have been highly entertaining by the way -- and in the background I'm whisper-cheering for you, "Yesss, closer... closer... SOON."
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
:laughing: You know when two Ni users are in the field when they're talking about long, LONG term strategies and elaborate contingent plans to gradually erode the competition to nonentities lol! Goliath's post highly amused me; so much Ni-Te of elimination of inefficiencies that get in the way of your long term objective. If there's one thing to be admired about Ni-doms, they can forgo the present because they have the bigger picture in mind and know they'll win the long term game.

Anyway OP, I've been following the thread(s) -- which have been highly entertaining by the way -- and in the background I'm whisper-cheering for you, "Yesss, closer... closer... SOON."
HAHA thank you, thank you *takes bow*

I feel as if she's in a "I'm not ready to drop you, but I'm still unsure about you" zone. I'm VERRRRRYYYYY SLOOWWWWWLLLLLYYYYY warming up towards her. Very slowly. I wish I knew what it took to get over the tipping point.

Also, part of me thinks that she may have disqualified me as a potential suitor because of her relationship with her god. I don't believe in a god. Coming from what seems like a strong Catholic family, this seems to me to be a strong possible reason for her not to be into me (she's not a super religious person, but she still believes and goes to church when she can). Also, I find that ISFJs, whoever they are dating, look long-term at what that guy/girl would look like as a father/mother, if s/he's suitable to raise his/her children, if s/he can be trusted with financial affairs, that sort of thing. She may have her mind made up already of raising her children Catholic, and the idea of potentially having an atheist husband is a dealbreaker for her.

The plus side to that is, I do believe ISFJs like "fix-it-up" missions. She may find me intriguing and dark enough to want to get to know.
 

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Goliath's post highly amused me
I know. I can be a highly amusing individual.

The plus side to that is, I do believe ISFJs like "fix-it-up" missions. She may find me intriguing and dark enough to want to get to know.
Don't fall into the mistake of generalization. The woman I am about to marry most certainly had to be on a fix up mission at a certain point in our relationship, because due to some unfortunate events I was becoming very messed up. Nonetheless, she certainly did not enjoy any of it. She almost left me numerous times, and she is still hyper aware of the slightest signs that I may be repeating past behavior. It has come to the point when, even years later, things like me not picking up my phone when she calls immediately makes her panic. I think if she was a healthier ISFJ as we were dating during that point, she certainly would have left me and she would have had every right to.

Saying that, she really did turn me around and I am grateful for that. She keeps telling me that I was not myself for an allotted year of our relationship, and she is very content she finally pulled me back. But really, if she had not known me before my series of errors as the person I was, she would have probably not even have been on that rescue mission. That's my best guess, and it leads me to my point. If she thinks you are a fix up mission from the start, and she is a healthy and intelligent ISFJ woman, she will have nothing positive to base your image on. This means, she will disqualify you not because of her faith but because she is making an intelligent decision to not become involved with a man she doesn't know who demands a rescue mission out of her.

If you are set on this woman, then you need to do everything in your capability to spark her interest which includes mental stability. If you are not willing to do that, then you aren't interested. Typically, I size women up from afar and determine whether their characteristics will be something I want to take with me way into the future, so my loyalty becomes unwavering to that one image with that one girl. If your not thinking this way, then maybe there's someone more suitable for your interests.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
So, she has been a little bit stand-offish lately. She has been frustrated with the children and work, kind of half-assing her job at this point.

My last day with her was on Thursday. She was especially nice that day (bought me breakfast, flirted during class and when getting called out by the students, not denying it), and I won't be seeing her until this Thursday, but I will be in another classroom.

Lately, she has been Snapchatting me a LITTLE bit more often, texting me a LITTLE bit more often. Nothing with too much substance, just more than usual. She's usually the first to look at my Snapchats, but I think that may be because she's attached to her phone. I barely ever respond.

I've been getting quite a few hair flips from her as well.

Last day, we played a game with the kids where they got to throw a ball of paper in the garbage if they got a multiple choice question right. She'd come up to me and rub the letter (like the letter "B") on my back to make sure I knew the answer (I've been told that ISFJs are NOT touchy-feely AT ALL unless they REALLY feel comfortable with the person).

We will no longer be working in the same building after this year.

At the end of the day, I went to talk to the English teacher on my team (50 year old woman). She said she was "so done with me and my co-teacher." She claimed that she didn't think anything was there (she's an ENFJ, so maybe she's insightful to that), and that ISFJ claimed she "didn't know what to think about the gift." (Apparently, ISFJ went in to talk to her b/c she's INCREDIBLY frustrated with everything and everybody -- time for her to leave the school). ENFJ told me that she told her to be appreciative, that I'm just a really good guy and wanted to show her my appreciation.

Something tells me ENFJ thinks that I'm over her and that's why she claims there is "nothing between us." I've sort of lied to ENFJ in the past saying I was no longer pursuing her because she was texting/messaging other guys (which she isn't -- she is "seeing" her placeholder friend), and I didn't want to be a part of competing for a girl.

A lady friend of mine told me that she feels as if the girl might just be very comfortable with me, but that doesn't mean attraction. Also, she claims, that she thought her best friend and her boyfriend's relationship would crumble quickly, and they are still dating for 18 months now (in other words, she's terrible with relationship advice).

I've sort of fell off the face of the earth with social media. Don't want her trying to find a trail of me somewhere.

Thoughts?
 
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