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The Social Eight - "Solidarity" (Countertype)

The Social Eight is the countertype of the three Eight subtypes. Social Eights represent a contradiction: the Eight archetype rebels against social norms, but the Social Eight is also oriented toward protection and loyalty. They express lust and aggression in the service of life and other people.

This person is "social antisocial." In contrast to Self-Preservation Eights, Social Eights are more loyal, more overtly friendly, and less aggressive. They are helpful Eights-people who are nurturing, protective, and concerned with the injustices that happen to people-yet they also display an antisocial aspect with regard to the rules of society.

Naranjo explains that, symbolically, this character represents the child who became tough (or violent) in protecting his mother against his father. This is someone who bands together with the mother and goes against the patriarchal power and all that is associated with it: violence out of solidarity. Archetypally, this character represents the child who has given up on getting love from the father and allied with the mother against him.

Social Eights are very sensitive to detecting situations in which people are being persecuted or exploited by others that hold more power. When they detect this kind of thing, they tend to act to protect those who are less powerful. Karl Marx, the champion of worker solidarity and outspoken critic of capitalism, may have been a Social Eight.

Overall, this Eight appears more mellow and outgoing and less quick to anger than the other Eights. They tend to rebel in less obvious was. They are very active, and they may lose themselves through constantly being in action. The may display a disproportionate lust for projects or for collecting things.

Socially, Social Eights like the power a group offers, and they may have difficulty engaging in more "individualized" relationships. In extreme cases, this Eight can tend toward megalomania. In close relationships, they may display a lack of commitment to the partner that hides an unconscious fear of abandonment.

In becoming a protector at too young an age, these Eights typically lose consciousness of their own needs for love and care. While people with this Eight subtype develop a strong ability to care for and protect others, they unconsciously give up their own need for love and replace it with a compensatory movement toward power and pleasure. It's generally hard for an Eight to make their love needs conscious, and while they can seem softer or calmer than the other Eights, Social Eights also have a blind spot where their own needs for love and protection are concerned.

This Eight often doesn't look like an Eight, Ichazo called this subtype "Friendship," but Naranjo uses the descriptor "complicity" or "solidarity" to distinguish the everyday, positive meaning of the word "friendship" from what he calls the "ego game" of the Social Eight’s unconscious personality pattern. According to Naranjo, this individual’s main drive is for something like loyalty. The Social Eight subtype is the most intellectual of the three, but these Eights also rebel against the dominant (patriarchal) culture. This rebellion necessarily involves a mixture of authority and intellect because the dominant authority in patriarchal societies tends to promote the intellectual control of impulses and excess. While the Sexual Eight is the most overtly anti-intellectual of the three Eight subtypes, the Social Eight goes up against the power of authority out of a desire to protect the oppressed and, unconsciously, a personal need for the nurturance associated with maternal care.

Male Social Eights can look like Type Nines, and female Social Eights may resemble Type Twos. However, these Eights can be distinguished from Nine and Twos because they act in more direct, powerful ways, engage more readily in conflict, and express more power and control in seeking to protect and support other people.



Annie, a Social Eight, speaks:

I am always doing something for other people and thinking that as soon as this current activity is finished then I'll turn to what I want to do just for me. When I first encountered the Enneagram I thought I was a Two because I didn't identify with the anger or the need to dominate. I was phobic of anger and unaware of my own underlying aggression. I wasn't aware of how controlling my efforts to help felt to others, and I would be hurt when people pushed back and complained.

I frequently get pulled into the leadership role in groups and then get whacked for thinking I know what's best to accomplish the task or project. In high school, to avoid this kind of pain, I started saying, "I’m not a leader. Don’t look at me to get this done." It didn't work. When I see something that needs doing, especially if it benefits others, I step in and get it done.

I have always been seen as friendly and yet have not had "best" friends that I was vulnerable with until late in life. It is hard to admit that I need help or concern or comfort. While I care about people and do a lot for them, I am realizing that I don't allow myself to have them matter that much to me. I have often left relationships without a look back. Until recently, I have not been the one who maintain friendships. I both yearn for the closeness friendship provides and feel scared of it-partly because I then feel obligated to take care of the other person no matter what.

I have been frequently hurt and puzzled by other people's reactions to me, and I work consciously to avoid being experienced as "too much" or intrusive. When others experience me this way, I often feel misunderstood. Because of this dynamic, I feel like I have to monitor my energy and impact so others can be comfortable. But I like the amount of energy and drive and decisiveness I naturally have. It is easy for me to start in a certain direction without too much planning and then make a course correction if needed. I have always been physically active, participating in both team and individual sports.

Fortunately, I was guided toward becoming a psychotherapist. In that role I have had a lot of practice with leading back to hear the other's experience, mirroring their truth back to theme, and offering help with an open hand. I feel my openheartedness, but it's more difficult to receive the love and gratitude others have for me. Most importantly, I've learned to trust that each person has their own wisdom and ability to live their life well.


Specific Work For The Social Eight on the Path from Vice to Virtue

Social Eights can travel the path from lust to innocence by learning how to take care of themselves in the same ways they feel moved to take care of others. Social Eights focus on protecting and supporting others as a way of acting out their own denied needs for protection and support, so it's important for them to embody innocence by being more actively and regularly aware of their own inner child and its needs for love and safety. These Eights grow in direct proportion to the degree to which they can see how they displace their need for love and support into taking action to be powerful in the world. It may be important for them to actually think about themselves as innocent children, as we all understand that all children deserve love, care, and protection-and that all children are naturally innocent. Opening up to the innocence involved in allowing themselves to be loved, taken care of, and vulnerable-which may have been impossible when they were young-allows Social Eights to reintegrate the child inside them that they had to abandon when they needed to get big fast in order to deal with the world.
 

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@TreeBob
sticky requested

@OP
the counter types usually seem like they correlate with very different MBTI types than the other two subtypes. in this case, your typical 8 sounds ESxP or ENTJ, but Social 8 sounds like it would correlate more with ENFP
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
@OP
the counter types usually seem like they correlate with very different MBTI types than the other two subtypes. in this case, your typical 8 sounds ESxP or ENTJ, but Social 8 sounds like it would correlate more with ENFP
Yeah, that's one of the main reason why I posted this. Your typical Eight description makes them seem like constant roid ragers that I was completely baffled when I read about the Social Eight in Chestnut's book, especially when I read about Annie's experiences. It also really drives home that Eights aren't fueled by their anger but by their lust, which often gets lost in most texts.
 

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@TreeBob
sticky requested

@OP
the counter types usually seem like they correlate with very different MBTI types than the other two subtypes. in this case, your typical 8 sounds ESxP or ENTJ, but Social 8 sounds like it would correlate more with ENFP
But if I sticky this then I would have to stick Beatrice's horrible sexual 8 description :(
 

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I think Immortal Technique is a good example of a social 8.

8w7 So/Sx imo



 

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@leadintea
Social Eights are very sensitive to detecting situations in which people are being persecuted or exploited by others that hold more power. When they detect this kind of thing, they tend to act to protect those who are less powerful. Karl Marx, the champion of worker solidarity and outspoken critic of capitalism, may have been a Social Eight.
this was probably the most shocking bit to me. "what...WHAT?! type 8 socialists? :confused: " obviously, she is not saying that Social 8s are extremely likely to be socialists, but Marxism struck me as the most non-8 ideology I could possibly think of. a Sexual or Self Preservation 8 would think "um...no. everyone can fend for themselves, cuz I worked for it, so it's mine!"
 

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@leadintea

this was probably the most shocking bit to me. "what...WHAT?! type 8 socialists? :confused: " obviously, she is not saying that Social 8s are extremely likely to be socialists, but Marxism struck me as the most non-8 ideology I could possibly think of. a Sexual or Self Preservation 8 would think "um...no. everyone can fend for themselves, cuz I worked for it, so it's mine!"
One of the best examples of a social Eight I know currently works in a rape crisis center and is an outspoken feminist activist in the area. She's far left politically, and intensely charismatic in that solid, confident Eight way. A lot of Eights are drawn to ideologies and causes that oppose the political hegemony because they are so closely psychologically attuned to power dynamics.
 

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@leadintea

this was probably the most shocking bit to me. "what...WHAT?! type 8 socialists? :confused: " obviously, she is not saying that Social 8s are extremely likely to be socialists, but Marxism struck me as the most non-8 ideology I could possibly think of. a Sexual or Self Preservation 8 would think "um...no. everyone can fend for themselves, cuz I worked for it, so it's mine!"
Political leaning != enneagram type motivations. Just because you may think it's a dog-eat-dog world doesn't mean that you can't support a political ideology that is meant to say, reinforce the power of the poor or outcasts. Precisely because I think it is a dog-eat-dog world I think it is important to support those who are worse off and current politics appall me exactly because of how it removes the power and influence of those worse off because it's widening the gap between social classes. Not everyone are selfish dicks and being an 8 does not mean you must be one, either. I don't identify myself as a socialist or a Marxist but I have strong Marxist leanings.
 

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Political leaning != enneagram type motivations. Just because you may think it's a dog-eat-dog world doesn't mean that you can't support a political ideology that is meant to say, reinforce the power of the poor or outcasts. Precisely because I think it is a dog-eat-dog world I think it is important to support those who are worse off and current politics appall me exactly because of how it removes the power and influence of those worse off because it's widening the gap between social classes. Not everyone are selfish dicks and being an 8 does not mean you must be one, either. I don't identify myself as a socialist or a Marxist but I have strong Marxist leanings.
relax. I already stated explicitly that I do not think that Enneagram type = political affiliation.
 

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Yet you react as if it's implausible for an 8 to be a Marxist?
I said it is un-8-ish, not that it was implausible for an 8 to be Marxist.

the nature of (non-counter-passion) 8 is one of hedonism, excess, rugged individualism and, frequently, aggressive acquisition of resources (particularly 8w7). 8s are about control and possession and, naturally, to an 8 in a position of power, a strongly socialist ideology threatens this control and turns it over to the common people (in theory. in actuality they turn it over to an oversized government). hence, Marxism is not 8-ish

while most 8s are concerned with fairness, what makes the Social 8 stand out is their primary focus on the plight of others and forgoing many of the aforementioned tendencies for the sake of protecting those groups or people they care about.

Doesn't seem like you think that to me.
um, yeah, it actually is, otherwise I wouldn't have said it. if you're going to project intentions onto me, at least get them right.
 

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this was probably the most shocking bit to me. "what...WHAT?! type 8 socialists? :confused: " obviously, she is not saying that Social 8s are extremely likely to be socialists, but Marxism struck me as the most non-8 ideology I could possibly think of. a Sexual or Self Preservation 8 would think "um...no. everyone can fend for themselves, cuz I worked for it, so it's mine!"
just because you may think it's a dog-eat-dog world doesn't mean that you can't support a political ideology that is meant to say, reinforce the power of the poor or outcasts. Precisely because I think it is a dog-eat-dog world I think it is important to support those who are worse off and current politics appall me exactly because of how it removes the power and influence of those worse off because it's widening the gap between social classes. Not everyone are selfish dicks and being an 8 does not mean you must be one, either. I don't identify myself as a socialist or a Marxist but I have strong Marxist leanings.
the nature of (non-counter-passion) 8 is one of hedonism, excess, rugged individualism and, frequently, aggressive acquisition of resources (particularly 8w7). 8s are about control and possession and, naturally, to an 8 in a position of power, a strongly socialist ideology threatens this control and turns it over to the common people
This conversation is funny to me, because the principles you guys are arguing over being 8ish or not honestly sounds like one of those warped, Calvinist / Ayn-Randist American ideologies to me (the poor DESERVE it, they can just die in the gutter), which in my observations, is bourne of culture, ignorance, and provincialism rather than of any particular enneatype. I speak from years of experience watching my own culture and speaking to others in other countries who really don't have this perspective of life.

The last quote in particular sounds like some manifestations of 1, 3, 6, and 7 as much as 8.

(just as a side note, one published author--and I forget which--did cite Marx as a good example of an 8, based on his perspective of society and those in power. Though he is typically seen as a 5, it's not absurd to associate Marxism and 8s, and even professionals have)
 

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This conversation is funny to me, because the principles you guys are arguing over being 8ish or not honestly sounds like one of those warped, Calvinist / Ayn-Randist American ideologies to me (the poor DESERVE it, they can just die in the gutter),
I am not arguing ideology though, but rather using my own ideologies as an example why it's dumb to associate ideologies with specific enneatypes. My point by using myself is to counter SoM's argument that type 8 is such and such way and should therefore also logically support such and such political view over other political views which of course in my opinion, is a ridiculous assertion to make.

which in my observations, is bourne of culture, ignorance, and provincialism rather than of any particular enneatype. I speak from years of experience watching my own culture and speaking to others in other countries who really don't have this perspective of life.
Agreed. I think it was in the description by Tom Condon someone uploaded recently where he suggested that it's not so much the ideology itself that the 8 may favor, as much as it is supporting whom the 8 at any moment may perceive as the underdog that is important to the 8. So less about ideology itself and more about supporting the underdog.

The last quote in particular sounds like some manifestations of 1, 3, 6, and 7 as much as 8.
I don't even think this quote is particularly 8-ish or about type 8 at all. It doesn't at all touch on what the core nature of type 8 is.

(just as a side note, one published author--and I forget which--did cite Marx as a good example of an 8, based on his perspective of society and those in power. Though he is typically seen as a 5, it's not absurd to associate Marxism and 8s, and even professionals have)
Yes, makes totally sense to me because again, what's important is to support those lesser off and to balance power dynamics out in order to bring the world fairness or justice.

I said it is un-8-ish, not that it was implausible for an 8 to be Marxist.

the nature of (non-counter-passion) 8 is one of hedonism, excess, rugged individualism and, frequently, aggressive acquisition of resources (particularly 8w7). 8s are about control and possession and, naturally, to an 8 in a position of power, a strongly socialist ideology threatens this control and turns it over to the common people (in theory. in actuality they turn it over to an oversized government). hence, Marxism is not 8-ish

while most 8s are concerned with fairness, what makes the Social 8 stand out is their primary focus on the plight of others and forgoing many of the aforementioned tendencies for the sake of protecting those groups or people they care about.


um, yeah, it actually is, otherwise I wouldn't have said it. if you're going to project intentions onto me, at least get them right.
So, just bitching semantics here, but how does the claim "Y is un-X of X" not suggest that you are essentially saying it is not something that is inherent to the nature of X or what X really is?
 

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I am not arguing ideology though, but rather using my own ideologies as an example why it's dumb to associate ideologies with specific enneatypes. My point by using myself is to counter SoM's argument that type 8 is such and such way and should therefore also logically support such and such political view over other political views which of course in my opinion, is a ridiculous assertion to make.
Oh, I agree. The more you see of the world, the more clear that becomes. But a lot of people haven't seen much of the world.

I don't even think this quote is particularly 8-ish or about type 8 at all. It doesn't at all touch on what the core nature of type 8 is.
That's the point. It's a misconception that doesn't really relate to any type. Though if you wanted to assign it a type, there'd be a variety that might actually make sense, if taken at literal face value.
 

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ENTP, 8w7, the social 8 is quite me!
I really loved the last part of the description, thanks!
Specific Work For The Social Eight on the Path from Vice to Virtue
 
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@TreeBob
sticky requested

@OP
the counter types usually seem like they correlate with very different MBTI types than the other two subtypes. in this case, your typical 8 sounds ESxP or ENTJ, but Social 8 sounds like it would correlate more with ENFP
Hey, I am ENTP and correlate quite strongly with that description. Would that seem weird to you?
 

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Hey, I am ENTP and correlate quite strongly with that description. Would that seem weird to you?
not entirely. Social 8 can look a lot like 7 (especially with the 7 wing and secondary Sexual)
that said, NP types in general are not likely to be gut types
 

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not entirely. Social 8 can look a lot like 7 (especially with the 7 wing and secondary Sexual)
that said, NP types in general are not likely to be gut types
Alright, I think I am ENTP 8w7 So/Sx anyway... I do look a lot like a 7.
 
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