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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Original Source: http://socionic.info/pdf/as498.pdf
Note: This is based upon official MBTI Type, as determined by Type I/II/III

International Institute of Socionics

RESEARCH
1998
Bukalov AV


Socionics, typology of Jung and Myers-Briggs:

Similarities and differences

Analyzes the differences between the structure of psychological types of CG Jung, types of informational metabolism in socionics and the Myers-Briggs typology. It is shown that the Myers-Briggs typology, as opposed to socionics, is not derived directly from the Jung's typology. The reason for differences lies in a different understanding of mental work type functions and the introduction of feature JP, other than the proposed concepts Jung rationality-irrationality. However, differences in the concepts can be integrated into the 16-component model B type of information metabolism, including integration function - self. This model combines both introverted (Jung, Myers-Briggs) and extroverted (socionics) approaches to the analysis of psychological types.

Keywords: typology of Jung, Myers-Briggs, socionics, psychological types, 8th component model of type, 16-component model of type, self, information libido.

Introduction

As is known, the theory of psychological types of CG Jung got its development in two different embodiments. In the West, the United States - a typology proposed by J. Briggs Myers in the East, the Soviet Union, and now in the CIS - a theory of informational metabolism (IM) - socionics developed A.Augustinavichiute (Lithuania) and is actively developing in recent years. Both of these trends have arisen independently of one another because of the "Iron Curtain", operate 16 types of personality, taking them out Jung's typology. And if the Myers-Briggs typology is only a literal development of the ideas of Jung and description 16 styles, socionics gives not just a description of the types of information metabolism, but also understanding internal information model of the mind in the form of 8-bit or 16-component models [1, 2]. At This unit socionic modeling allows to describe and Information the interaction between types of MI, ie. e. the relationship between them.

Jung himself proposed a very simple structure consisting of four mental functions, and American typology uses the same today Jung submission early 30-ies of XX century.

In reading specialists in sotsionike American typology quickly it became clear that the empirical description of the Myers-Briggs types coincide with the corresponding descriptions socionic types MI theory and practice. This interest in the achievements of the American socionists typology exhausted: it was obvious that the typology nothing could give sotsionike because of the scarcity of its theoretical baggage. Strictly speaking, the typology was (and is) in state before sotsioniki or relative socionics, at 1968, when A.Augustinavichiute He began developing his theory. Thus, the lag in the American concepts and typology methods is about 30 years. Nevertheless, due to a number of political and economic reasons, typology widespread in the West, especially the United States, it is used by millions of people. Therefore, from time to time there is a question of the relationship between the concepts of socionics and typology Myers Briggs, the degree of correctness of reference types MI with psychological types, these types of conformity types of CG Jung, and so.. In this article, I intend to highlight a number of key provisions, showing the similarities and differences between all three theories.

1. Jung Typology

The theory of psychological types of CG Jung is based on the concepts introduced by him psychological functions: the irrational - the opposite to her intuition and feeling and rational - thinking and an opposite feeling. In addition to that introduced Jung the concept of extraversion (treatment of libido (libido) - psychic energy - out) and introversion (Facing inward libido). Psychological functions can be both extraverted, and in introverted installation.

According to Jung, there are 8 basic psychological types (4 and 4 extraverted introverted) with a dominant psychological functions (intuition, feeling, thinking or feeling), and either extraverted or introverted installation consciousness.

Besides the basic functions, there is also a subsidiary. For the main irrational auxiliary function can only be one of rational functions, and vice versa. Thus Jung noted that several different psychological types by the way in which the type of auxiliary function (for example, the main function of the type of intuition with the auxiliary function of thinking different from the type of auxiliary function with feeling). This is the key to the 16 types that used Myers-Briggs and A.Augusta. Jung himself did not give further division great value.

Following the installation of consciousness discussed above, Jung described the installation and the unconscious. At the psychological type of installation of the unconscious opposite installation of consciousness. Thus, in introverted thinking type, Jung - archaic depressed Extraverted feeling, while sentient extraverted type setting is unconscious introverted intuitive.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
2. Typology and the Myers-Briggs typology Jung

J. Briggs Myers took as a basis a typology of Jung and introduced the 16 psychological types. Myers-Briggs types are defined as a combination of a receiving (P) functions (intuition N or sensation S) with one of the judging (J) functions (thinking or feeling T F). Let note that the terms irrational and rational have been replaced by the terms perceiving- judging. As a result, a simple combination of functions with the extraversion-introversion occurs 16 types. However, there is a definite difference in the method of removing these types. J. Briggs Myers introduced the concept of the dominant and auxiliary processes. If a person is dominated by the process of perception (P), the judgment (J) is an additional process, and conversely, if the dominant process - judgment (J), the additional process - perceiving (P). According to Myers-Briggs, "the dominant process is concentrated in the outer world of people and events, and an additional process has to take care of their inner life, without which were extroverts I would be extremely extroverted, and, according to them better balanced colleagues - superficial." In introverts "dominant process is absorbed by the inner world of thought, and an additional process It is doing everything it can, in relation to their external life. " However, the "introverts are forced to use dominant process in relation to the external world is slightly larger than necessary, due to predictable results. " "Dominant extroverts process aims to be immediately visible. Since introverts - on the contrary. Dominant process usually introverted and stubborn; where their attention should turn to the outside world, they tend to use that additional process. Except for those who are very close to a lot of introverts or interested in the work, they love ... people without much pleasure allowed into the inner world of introverts. Most people only see the other side of that introverts impose the outside world, much of which is their additional process, secondary ... The result is paradoxical. Introverts, whose dominant process - the process of judgment, or thinking, or feeling, in the outside world are not like judging people. What is shown in - this is the most perceiving of their additional process. They live in their outer life mainly perceptual positions ... Similarly introverts whose dominant process - perception, or sensation, or intuition, apparently do not behave like humans perceive. They demonstrate the most judicious of their additional process and live their lives largely from the perspective of judgment ".

J. Briggs Myers compares the dominant process with the General, and the additional - with Adjutant. In general extrovert it is outside the tent and decides all questions, communicates with people. Adjutant is in the background or in a tent. In general introvert "is inside the tent, treating issues of highest priority. " It communicates with the outside world adjutant. Note that this idea J. Briggs Myers and the dominant role of additional processes It looks a bit strange in the case of extroverted not quite clear as an additional process in extroverts.

As a result of this distinction arises 8 extraverted types and 8 introverted. It is assumed that the dominant process is always connected with extrovert outside world and indicates - preference J-P. For introverts J or P in their type designation It represents an additional process as introverts, according to J. Briggs Myers, do not use dominant process to communicate with the outside world.

We emphasize that such an interpretation of mental processes due to I. Briggs Myers and found in CG Jung.

For example, consider the extraverted (E) thinking (T) type of CG Jung in compared to the Myers-Briggs typology. The function of thought is rational (Ra). If we accept an additional function as a function of feeling, in this type of letter symbols can be written as follows: ET(S)(Ra)

For the extraverted thinking type with auxiliary intuition record looks as follows: ET(N)(Ra)

By I. Briggs-Myers these types are written as ESTJ or ENTJ, respectively. If the concept of rationality (Ra) and J -preferences and the notion of irrationality (Ir) and P -preferences respectively, the same, the recording encoding type for Jung and Myers-Briggs are the same.

For the introverted thinking type, defined by Jung rational (main function - thinking - rational), the record will be as follows:
a) If the auxiliary function sensation, IT (S) (Ra);
b) if the auxiliary function intuition, the IT (N) (Ra).
According to Myers-Briggs record is as follows:
a) ISTP;
b) INTP.

Get the paradoxical result: on the Myers-Briggs with the dominant introverted types judging function are perceived or irrational in terms of Jung. Contradiction there. Myers-Briggs types do not match the encoding of the types of CG Jung.

What type of Jung corresponds to the acronym ISTP Myers-Briggs typology? Obviously, if we take as a priority indication J - P -predpochtenie, the desired type of Jung will introverted intuitive (irrational) type with thinking as a subsidiary process, namely IN (T) (Ir).

To verify this assertion, it suffices to compare the description of introverted Jungian types with descriptions of American typology, for example, in D. Kersi.

Absolutely obvious, that by committing replacement crisp and clear sign Jung Rationality(Ra) - irrationality(Ir) own terms judging(J) - percieving(P), J. Briggs Myers was in captivity semantics of these terms, which differs from the semantics of terms Jung (see Note 1). Thus, in the interpretation of the American typology there is a serious disagreement with Jung (Socionics) in understanding the essence of the primary and secondary processes. The main function Jung's introverted type is interpreted I. Briggs Myers as an auxiliary. So Jungian introverted sensing type with an auxiliary function of feeling (IS (F) (Ir))empirically, the description matches the type in ISFP Myers-Briggs typology called sentient introverted type with the dominant introverted function feeling and support functions extraverted sensation.

(Note 1: This is true for types of left social progress (in terms of socionics). Briggs Type I. Meyers described as :t::e:(IEI).)

What kind of function is actually dominant in this type? From point of view Jungian typology and socionics - a sensation or sensory function. From the viewpoint of typology Myers-Briggs feeling - just a helper function.

It should again be emphasized that the practice of using semantics and description of the signs in J-P American typology actually match the description attribute rationality-irrationality in Jung, who, in turn, is actively used in socionics. Therefore, all statements that sign J-P describes "something else", it should be recognized erroneous and unfounded.

Why did we have identified a discrepancy was not noticed before? Apparently it happened because of the terminological ambiguities of both the works of Jung, and (increasingly) of his followers, which, being more psychoanalysts often confuse leadership and support functions have type. A striking example of this - the description "with the types of parties" where sotsionike easy to detect inconsistencies in description introverted types and their relationships with extroverted types. So, given the right description sentient extraverted type with auxiliary function of thinking and his wife as the introverted feeling type, as well as their relations as a full complement (To use the concept of socionics). However, that such a couple is in a relationship complement each other, the spouse who feels extraverted type with auxiliary thought to be an introverted intuitive type of feeling with the auxiliary. Otherwise - incompatible types (such relations are relations in socionics conflict). Next, the introverted thinking type, and indicated that his wife - extroverted feeling type (which corresponds precisely sotsionike). Apparently the author "Parties to the types of" describing the two couples with similar nature of the relationship, admits confusion in the description and notation types.

Examples can be continued.

Thus, D. Kersi, developing ideas J. Briggs Myers offered the best combination of psychological types. This, according to him, those who have all the qualities of the opposite, for example, INTP and ESFJ. From the point of Kersi logical view of all - the extreme should converge. But in terms of Jung's typology (and sotsioniki) talking about irrational introverted intuitive type with an auxiliary thinking (installation of consciousness), with the installation of an archaic unconscious as extroverted sensation of feeling with the auxiliary. It is clear that this type is best suited irrational extroverted sensing type with an auxiliary function of feeling (Installation of consciousness) and introverted archaic setting with the function of the unconscious intuition and auxiliary thinking. And it does not fit a rational extraverted feeling type with auxiliary sensation. This follows from the fact that irrational and rational style life is very different, and in this particular case, these general types are not compatible or conflicts.

The development of these ideas leads to unique ideas of socionics.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
3. Socionics and Jung's typology

In keeping with Jung, A.Augustinavichiute build an information model psyche (Model A) and the corresponding typology [1]. Thus the basic psychological function Jung's psychological type in the model A corresponds to the first, the software, the most powerful feature. Supporting Jung function corresponds to the second, the creative function of the Model A.

Installation of consciousness described by a block EGO Model A, and install in the interpretation of the unconscious Jung. It corresponds to a block SUPERID Model A that contains the informational metabolism functions, opposite (Jung) as the main and auxiliary functions of type.

In addition, the model contains 4 more functions, the need for which the administration it arose from a number of considerations.

In addition to the ideas of CG Jung used the work A.Augusta Polish A. Kempinsky psychiatrist who proposed the concept of informational metabolism, or exchange. The man on the Kempinski, feeds information and mental health depends the quality and quantity of information received. By A.Augusta, these qualities other properties are determined by a set of data as a function of psychological functions information metabolism performing reception, processing and delivery of specific Information on aspects of intuition, sensation (feeling), logic (thinking) and ethics (Feeling). Hence the theory and the theory of relations intertype information exchange the various FIM (informational metabolism functions).

4. The need for a new theoretical model of the psyche

This difference of theoretical views on the structure of the psyche between the theory of Jung, as well as socionics, on the one hand, and looks J. Briggs Myers, on the other hand, if the same success practical psychological and psychoanalytic work with individuals (not theory US relations in the typology, complete failure of which has been shown above), makes to think that behind every statement is a certain psychic reality.

Is a synthesis of both viewpoints?

On the one hand, there are studies of Jung and his school. Studies in the framework Socionics, including ours, confirm the dominance of functions in the sense of Jung's views. Specifically, I was proposed and tested by numerous researchers in practice the concept Information dimension functions, according to which the dominant, or the first function is four, and the second, or supplementary, - three-dimensional, ie. e. has less information capacity. Apart from the purely psychological research, a significant difference in power functions We confirmed our psychotronic studies using groups of sensitives, "scan" types of people. Collective expert assessment sensitives who are not familiar with socionics, confirmed all the main provisions of Socionics, including inter-type relations. At the same time it has been received interesting information about the structure and functioning of the psychological functions or FIM. So, for example by finding :f::t:(LIE) in the company of two :s::e:(SEI) It assessed as extremely sensitives adverse (socionic relationship conflict). It was noted that the presence of :f::t:(LIE) surrounded by three :s::e:(SEI) able to dramatically worsen his health and state of health. Note again that these relations Kersi D. recommends as the best. Similar experiments with dual dyads and quadras showed unconditional positive impact and dual kvadrovyh other relations.

In addition, our statistics confirms couples socionics theory intertype relations. On the other hand, the point of view of J. Briggs Myers on the structure of the mind has its type many supporters. Rejecting the concept of rationality, irrationality and enter your concepts perception, judgment, J. Briggs Myers actually offered his understanding operation introverted type. Is it possible that some of these hidden psychic reality, which was perceptible J. Briggs Myers as the introvert? Recall that Jung defined introversion and extraversion in the direction of movement of psychic energy libido or out of the subject. This information, which operates the mind, obviously moving in the opposite direction of libido. And it is quite natural: the extrovert, who libido moves outward from self , absorbs information (it moves inside). Do introvert libido moves inside, and the inside of the self moving outward information - ideas, images, presentations, 8-component model does not describe these processes. So I offered 16-component Model B, which describes a number of processes and phenomena, ignore the Model A.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
5. The new informational model of psyche - model B

The proposed model was developed in 1989 and used to describe the functional states such as myocardial infarction, the operation of communication patterns, relationships and dynamics intertype t. d. It was found that this model may be to some extent to connect the two points of view on the structure type (see. fig.), or at least help to understand what prompted J. Briggs Myers formulate its point of view.

Model B consists of 16 PPM (8 external and internal 8 (see Note 2)) With signs located at the vertices of a 4-dimensional cube. His three-dimensional projection looks like a "cube in a cube", which corresponds to the outer and inner layers of the psyche, adapted to the three-dimensional physical space.

(Note 2: External and internal functions, which divides each informational metabolism function of the Model A, a number of different options, as described - a topic for another article. )

In addition to the FIM model has an integrative function of consciousness or self, which is in center of the model in the center of a structured psycho-information space. The model describes as the flow of information Inf to the outside for extroverts and self from the self outward for introverts and movement of libido or psychic energy (introduced the concept of Jung), which occurs in the opposite direction of the flow of information: for extroverts - from the self outward to introverts - external to the self.

A feature of model B is that all information is obtained as an information metabolism.

The second feature is that extroversion or introversion appear as a property just type in general, and not determined by the individual functions. This view is reflected in the model, It corresponds to the initial views of Jung, who spoke about the extraverted or introverted psyche installations. In our view, the definition of the individual functions in the models as extroverted or introverted meaningless.

Let us consider the model of type B :i::L:(ILE). Block EGO information moves from the first external function :i:[sup]+...[/sup][sub]ext[/sub] second :L:[sup]+...[/sup][sub]ext[/sub] further directed both externally (the work of the creative function) and inward toward the self (through a second internal function :L:[sup]-...[/sup][sub]int[/sub]). This is exactly the process that said I. Briggs Myers, saying that balances the dominant helper function. At the same time meet the information on the same block sites EGO model moves energy libido E[sub]l[/sub] From self through the second to the first function, the internal :L:[sup]-...[/sup][sub]int[/sub] through :L:[sup]+...[/sup][sub]ext[/sub] the outer :i:[sup]+...[/sup][sub]ext[/sub].

In the case of the introverted type (e.g. :s::e:(SEI) ) Information in the block moves from EGO self through the inner function :e:[sup]-...[/sup][sub]int[/sub] the inner function :s:[sup]-...[/sup][sub]int[/sub] and further to an external function :s:[sup]+...[/sup][sub]ext[/sub]. There are also single out two processes: first, describing flow of information in model A of the primary, the first function to the second :s:, creative :e:, and the second - a process described by J. Briggs Myers and shown above. Accordingly, the energy of the libido moves in the opposite direction.

Further signs of other parameters of internal and external functions in models Right and Left opposite functions (Fig. 3), ie. a. representatives of the left social progress
guided by perceptions and manifestations of energy libido, while representatives of the right ring social progress focused on the perception of information processes. This difference It raises a number of discrepancies in the interpretation of the phenomena of reality, which is also It is due to the new model of IM - model B.


the model used for the type of ILE (right ring social progress)


the model used for the type of SEI (right ring social progress)


the model used for the type of IEE (left ring social progress)
 

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Thus, model B is really consistently agree on both points of view that are two sides of a multi-dimensional mental process. When using the self as a the starting point of the movement of information for us really brightens view I. Briggs- Myers on the introverted type. Type :s::e: can actually be perceived as a feeling introverted type :)e:[sub]int[/sub]:s:[sub]ext[/sub]) With an auxiliary function of sensations ( sensory ). However, this very subjective point of view, supported by the self as a special function integration Consciousness associated with the internal system of coordinates. Another thing, if objectively compare dimension or power functions. In this case, the first or dominant function in this type of certainly - the function of sensory or feeling :s:.

A similar analysis can be performed for all introverted personality types.

We also note another interesting consequence of the model supported by empirical observations: there are two basic types of options - with preferential exchange information on the 1st function and advantageous exchange of information on the 2nd creative function. This introverted, corresponding to the first embodiment, seem more extroverted than introverts with a second embodiment type. This second option is closer to what is described I. Briggs-Myers. In turn, the extroverts with a dominant 1st function looks more introverted compared with the option of using the active 2nd function.

Note again that the Jungian psychoanalysts working in the inner layers of the psyche, in a introverted processes inevitably faced with the manifestation of the work of the inner ring Model B. Hence, the difference of opinion and that inconsistencies in the description of types, which marked earlier. Model B with self allows you to combine object, extroverted approach A.Augusta with subjectivity, introverted approach I. Briggs Myers.

Model B only to consistently interpret the concept of CG Jung, I. Briggs Myers A.Augusta, but also the development of SV Filimonov of external and internal circles of the information metabolism. Furthermore, the introduction AV Filimonov unit every aspect on so-called "Live" and "dead" is an explanation: the differences are caused by what part of the model B - external and internal - and with what parameters and signs dominant in a particular person.

From this it follows that the designation of the type of incorrect recording functions using symbols type :s:[sup]+[/sup]:e:[sup]-[/sup] (+ S-E) or ISFJ (in the notation of the Myers-Briggs) since it is only fragments of the description general model of the informational metabolism type Encoding Meyer-Briggs or symbolic designation with signs of inadequate complete encoding type .. The correct type designation is in the form of symbols no signs, for example :s::e: (SE) for the EIA, or offered notation ISFIr. In some I mean, Myers-Briggs typology is incomplete with respect to the socionic and their identification, strictly speaking, incorrect. Myers-Briggs typology and socionic 8 Element description of the type describe the various characters from the fragments of a single psychic reality. Paradoxically, because of this they are different typologies fragmented within the single socionic typology. Therefore, when comparing the two typologies, for example, and socionic Myers-Briggs, correct, appears to be the expression: "socionic type information metabolic X partially (or fragments) corresponds to the psychological type Y of the Myers-Briggs." In addition, we offer international designations for personality types of information metabolism (see table).
 

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Brief character (A.Augusta)Brief letter (V.Gulenko)The proposed full letter (A.Bukalov)Abbreviation Jung Types indicating Dom/Aux functions notation MBTI - BukalovaSocionical/Jungian corresponding to MBTI
:i::L:ILI1L2E(Ir)ILEEN(T)IrENTP
:s::e:SES1E2I(Ir)SEIIS(F)IrISFP
:e::s:ESE1S2I(Ir)ESEEF(S)RaESFJ
:L::i:LIL1I2I(Ra)LIIIT(N)RaINTJ
:e::t:ETE1T2E(Ra)EIEEF(N)RaENFJ
:L::f:LFL1F2I(Ra)LSIIT(S)RaISTJ
:f::L:FLF1L2I(Ra)SLEES(T)IrESTP
:t::e:TET1E2I(Ir)IEIIN(F)IrINFP
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Brief character (A.Augusta)Brief letter (V.Gulenko)The proposed full letter (A.Bukalov)Abbreviation Jung Types indicating Dom/Aux functions notation MBTI - BukalovaSocionical/Jungian corresponding to MBTI
:f::r:FRF1R2E(Ir)SEEES(F)IrESFP
:t::p:TPT1P2I(Ir)ILIIN(T)IrINTP
:p::t:PTP1T2E(Ra)LIEET(N)RaENTJ
:r::f:RFR1F2I(Ra)ESIIF(S)RaISFJ
:p::s:PSP1S2E(Ra)[/LSEET(S)RaESTJ
:r::i:RIR1I2I(Ra)EIIIF(N)RaINFJ
:i::r:IRI1R2E(Ir)IEEEN(F)IrENFP
:s::p:SPS1P2I(Ir)SLIIS(T)IrISTP



L & T e r a t u r a:
1. Augustinavichiute A. Socion. //, Cosmology and Astrophysics personality psychology. №№ 4-5, 1996.
2. Bukalov AV 16 komponenntnaya Socion and TIM model. //, Cosmology and Astrophysics psychology
personality. № 4. 1996.
3. Bukalov AV structure and dimensionality of informational metabolism functions. // Socionics,
mentology and personality psychology. № 2. 1995.
4. Bukalov AV novel features functions, types, and dimensions. //, Cosmology and Astrophysics psychology
personality. - In the press.
5. Bukalov AV, Boiko AG Socionics: the mystery of human relationships and bioenergy. - C. 1992.
6. Bukalov AV, Karpenko OB, Chikirisova GV relationship in married couples. // Socionics,
mentology and personality psychology. - In the press.
7. Filimonov AV Expansion informational model of psyche. //, Cosmology and Astrophysics psychology
personality. Number 6, 1996.
8. Filimonov SV External and internal levels of information metabolism. // Socionics,
mentology and personality psychology. № 6. 1996.
9. D. Sharpe personality types. 1994. C. 100.
10. CG Jung, Psychological Types. - M. ​​1924.
11. Isabel Briggs Myers with Peter B. Myers. Gifts Differing. Consulting Psychologist Press, Inc. - Translation
AP Tikhonov.
12. D. Keirsey & Bates M. Please, Understand Me. Character and Temperament Types. Del Mar, CA: Prometheus
Nemesis Book Co., 1978.
13. D. Keirsey Temperament of Portraits. Del Mar, CA: Prometheus Nemesis Book Co., 1989.
 

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Thank you, Jeremy.

The +/- signs (optimistic/realistic) are essential. It is impossible to explain our scientific and technological progress without them.

But why do we need model B? Is it because the model includes libido? Is it because each type actually has
2 x 8 IM elements? Does model A, with the current definitions of the +/- signs, explain duality?


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I: "Can you explain the signs in model A. I don't understand duality with the current placement."

Socionist: "This 'dark' theme. Two sotsionicheskie school (authors) can not understand it themselves."

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This is an argument for model B:

http://www.socioniko.net/ru/gazeta/2...s-trekhov.html

(Bing translator)

Mark aspect is a property that it acquires depending on in what aspect is blocked and the rings is.

That acquires aspect together with the sign? All agree that the character minus matches promising wide, not a detailed view from afar. Plus sign specific, narrowly directed look at equal parts.


The dispute need to collect statistics of work aspects in the vital′nom ring. But a similar experiment might take in advance to failure. The fact of the matter is that A. Bukalov hypothesis in due time [1] that all 16 (incl. marks) aspects are present in each.

So you can talk about two of the four rings in the model. One (mental) no doubt in identification. And regarding its constituent aspects of the dispute. One (consisting of the same dimensions as that of mental, but with other characters) are almost not noticeable. And here are the two remaining confused.

In my opinion, not yetskrupulëznogo research should adhere to determine No.1. Because it links into one system a greater number of concepts [2] and is supported by a large number of specialists.
 

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Page stretching, you've gotta be kidding me. Want to make a point of discussion instead of copy+pasting and throwing it through google translate?
Page stretching? Not sure what you're talking about. Be specific.

I spent like 5 hours yesterday fixing on translation and manually translating parts of this lol. Notice all the formatting and the socionics emoticons too? Lol
 

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@Tellus

As I understand it, Model B not only rectifies the difference in point of view between socionics, jungian, and MBTI, but also better describes each type's functional usage of elements. For instance, with EII, the Ignoring function not only has Fe+ but also has Fi-. This means that by ignoring additions of positive emotions, the EII simultaneously ignores reducing number of interpersonal relationships. Thus, the EII generally maintains emotionlessness as a means to reduce psychological interpersonal connections reductions. When stressed, the EII may activate addition of emotions to reduce number of psychological interpersonal relationships. The leading function, being Fi+ and Fe-, places the EII as adding psychological connections while simultaneously reducing negative emotions. This causes EII to build relationships by assisting in fixing emotional disparities in others. This is as opposed by IEI, who utilizes addition of positive emotions in creative function to reduce negative connections with others. Thus, IEI lives their ego by addition of emotional displays to solve interpersonal problems and connect to their leading Ni. By using the +/- of Model B, the generated descriptions of each type most closely resemble their correct MBTI counterparts; i.e. J=j and P=p. Again, this is assuming that people use their correct/real MBTI type and not one based upon self functional analysis, which does not account for the introversion of MBTI's functional model.
 

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@Tellus

As I understand it, Model B not only rectifies the difference in point of view between socionics, jungian, and MBTI, but also better describes each type's functional usage of elements. For instance, with EII, the Ignoring function not only has Fe+ but also has Fi-. This means that by ignoring additions of positive emotions, the EII simultaneously ignores reducing number of interpersonal relationships. Thus, the EII generally maintains emotionlessness as a means to reduce psychological interpersonal connections reductions. When stressed, the EII may activate addition of emotions to reduce number of psychological interpersonal relationships. The leading function, being Fi+ and Fe-, places the EII as adding psychological connections while simultaneously reducing negative emotions. This causes EII to build relationships by assisting in fixing emotional disparities in others. This is as opposed by IEI, who utilizes addition of positive emotions in creative function to reduce negative connections with others. Thus, IEI lives their ego by addition of emotional displays to solve interpersonal problems and connect to their leading Ni. By using the +/- of Model B, the generated descriptions of each type most closely resemble their correct MBTI counterparts; i.e. J=j and P=p. Again, this is assuming that people use their correct/real MBTI type and not one based upon self functional analysis, which does not account for the introversion of MBTI's functional model.
Let's focus on "J=j and P=p". I will comment on the +/- signs and model B later.

Bukalov:

As a result of this distinction arises 8 extraverted types and 8 introverted. It is assumed that the dominant process is always connected with extrovert outside world and indicates - preference J-P. For introverts J or P in their type designation It represents an additional process as introverts, according to J. Briggs Myers, do not use dominant process to communicate with the outside world.”

INFP: Fi, Ne...

He suggests that ‘P’ denotes Ne. This corresponds with The Myers-Briggs Foundation’s definition of J/P, right?

http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/judging-or-perceiving.htm

This fourth preference pair describes how you like to live your outer life--what are the behaviors others tend to see? Do you prefer a more structured and decided lifestyle (Judging) or a more flexible and adaptable lifestyle (Perceiving)? This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world.”
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Let's focus on "J=j and P=p". I will comment on the +/- signs and model B later.

Bukalov:

As a result of this distinction arises 8 extraverted types and 8 introverted. It is assumed that the dominant process is always connected with extrovert outside world and indicates - preference J-P. For introverts J or P in their type designation It represents an additional process as introverts, according to J. Briggs Myers, do not use dominant process to communicate with the outside world.”

INFP: Fi, Ne...

He suggests that ‘P’ denotes Ne. This corresponds with The Myers-Briggs Foundation’s definition of J/P, right?

http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/judging-or-perceiving.htm

This fourth preference pair describes how you like to live your outer life--what are the behaviors others tend to see? Do you prefer a more structured and decided lifestyle (Judging) or a more flexible and adaptable lifestyle (Perceiving)? This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world.”
He is stating that Model A INFj is Fi Ne. Model B INFj is Fi-/Fe+ Ne-/Ni+. Function stack for Model A and Model B is world -> self. Flow of information for MBTI for extroverts is world -> self and for introverts is world <- self. MBTI information flow for INFJ is Ni <- Fe. Model B is Ne- <- Fi+, which is also Ni+ <- Fe-
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Let's focus on "J=j and P=p". I will comment on the +/- signs and model B later.

Bukalov:

As a result of this distinction arises 8 extraverted types and 8 introverted. It is assumed that the dominant process is always connected with extrovert outside world and indicates - preference J-P. For introverts J or P in their type designation It represents an additional process as introverts, according to J. Briggs Myers, do not use dominant process to communicate with the outside world.”

INFP: Fi, Ne...

He suggests that ‘P’ denotes Ne. This corresponds with The Myers-Briggs Foundation’s definition of J/P, right?

http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/judging-or-perceiving.htm

This fourth preference pair describes how you like to live your outer life--what are the behaviors others tend to see? Do you prefer a more structured and decided lifestyle (Judging) or a more flexible and adaptable lifestyle (Perceiving)? This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world.”
He states that J and P are the same as rationality and irrationality. That anyone claiming otherwise is making erroneous claims. He also states that Myers-Briggs placed the introverts outer world as their auxiliary. Outer world for all types in Socionics is Leading.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I'm trying to get my head around this article, but without understanding his model it doesn't make much sense to me.

Can anyone explain why information for SEI moves from selfhood through inner Fe first and then to inner Si secondly?
Extroverts information flow move from external leading through external creative to internal creative to self. Introverts information flow does the opposite. Introverts move from Self to internal creative through internal leading to external leading. Libido, psychic energy, moves opposite to this.

When you treat SEI as such, within the 16 model, this Fe-/Si+ is also Fi+/Se-.

A good way of thinking of it is:
Socionics is a singular external and internal model of the psyche.
MBTI is a model of information flow for extroverts and a different model of information flow for introverts.
 

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Hi jeremy8419
I like Socionics and beleave it has an authentic perspective that denotes the character of the human condition well with in its own perimeters. But there is something not quite right about what I have read above that you have sheared.

The model you present gives me an impression of a flying automobile with square wheels, there were moments when I thought ok I get it the perspective but when I placed the content in context with other factors it was if the flying automobile touched down on the run way, things did not feel write and thoughts ran through my mind of that was not taken into consideration.

The Basics. In reality there are 18 different types of people energies and each of those eighteen personality types has three instincts and six instinctual variant operations to navigate or exercise.

So the basic flaw is the same old flaw the beginning was never corrected. I like CG Jung he is a was a good man and how he manage to sit down and patiently listen to so many nut causes amazes me still to this day and perhaps that is why as an Self Preservation Instinctual type he defined part of his mode utilising the terms (rational and irrational) stress and reality and learning to adapt and cope can lead the self to do the very best one can the the level of understanding the self has. I sagest that he did not have three definitions for the three instincts and so did his best and well his system did not adequately define the human personality.

As for good friend J. Briggs Myers what a great job he did sore something that had the wow factor and knew that it could be expanded via the perspicacity inmate and did a fine job, but the reality remained and the reality was not something he was privy to and that is there are not sixteen types of people energy there are eighteen people type energies.

Mow if I know one thing alone about this free enterprise system we all operate within is that enterprise evolves via cash flow and money is synonymous with a businesses survival and continued prosperity. People who have studied hard found jobs within there chosen profession also need employment to be stable and long lasting so they can meet there dreams and expectations of successfully raining a family and or paying of a house and building security for there future.

So at what point is reality going to be authentically honoured? There are eighteen types of people not sixteen. And a square box inside a square box is not helping to mend the basic flaw.

An error needs to be corrected and once that error has been honoured and reality accepted the fact being that there are eighteen people types, then we can set about constructing via modification from these three models you have drawn upon and construct a true model that represent the human mind.

Let's start with the question and I know it is a very difficult question to answer. What are the function settings for both the 1w9 and the 5w6 from the eight letters: ( I, E, S, N, T, F, J, P ).

Get that wright and you can begin afresh upon the correct foundations. Think of it as like changing the wheels on the flying automobile that has square wheels.

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Hi jeremy8419
I like Socionics and beleave it has an authentic perspective that denotes the character of the human condition well with in its own perimeters. But there is something not quite right about what I have read above that you have sheared.

The model you present gives me an impression of a flying automobile with square wheels, there were moments when I thought ok I get it the perspective but when I placed the content in context with other factors it was if the flying automobile touched down on the run way, things did not feel write and thoughts ran through my mind of that was not taken into consideration.

The Basics. In reality there are 18 different types of people energies and each of those eighteen personality types has three instincts and six instinctual variant operations to navigate or exercise.

So the basic flaw is the same old flaw the beginning was never corrected. I like CG Jung he is a was a good man and how he manage to sit down and patiently listen to so many nut causes amazes me still to this day and perhaps that is why as an Self Preservation Instinctual type he defined part of his mode utilising the terms (rational and irrational) stress and reality and learning to adapt and cope can lead the self to do the very best one can the the level of understanding the self has. I sagest that he did not have three definitions for the three instincts and so did his best and well his system did not adequately define the human personality.

As for good friend J. Briggs Myers what a great job he did sore something that had the wow factor and knew that it could be expanded via the perspicacity inmate and did a fine job, but the reality remained and the reality was not something he was privy to and that is there are not sixteen types of people energy there are eighteen people type energies.

Mow if I know one thing alone about this free enterprise system we all operate within is that enterprise evolves via cash flow and money is synonymous with a businesses survival and continued prosperity. People who have studied hard found jobs within there chosen profession also need employment to be stable and long lasting so they can meet there dreams and expectations of successfully raining a family and or paying of a house and building security for there future.

So at what point is reality going to be authentically honoured? There are eighteen types of people not sixteen. And a square box inside a square box is not helping to mend the basic flaw.

An error needs to be corrected and once that error has been honoured and reality accepted the fact being that there are eighteen people types, then we can set about constructing via modification from these three models you have drawn upon and construct a true model that represent the human mind.

Let's start with the question and I know it is a very difficult question to answer. What are the function settings for both the 1w9 and the 5w6 from the eight letters: ( I, E, S, N, T, F, J, P ).

Get that wright and you can begin afresh upon the correct foundations. Think of it as like changing the wheels on the flying automobile that has square wheels.

Cheers
You're speaking of enneagram.
 

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Extroverts information flow move from external leading through external creative to internal creative to self. Introverts information flow does the opposite. Introverts move from Self to internal creative through internal leading to external leading. Libido, psychic energy, moves opposite to this.

When you treat SEI as such, within the 16 model, this Fe-/Si+ is also Fi+/Se-.

A good way of thinking of it is:
Socionics is a singular external and internal model of the psyche.
MBTI is a model of information flow for extroverts and a different model of information flow for introverts.
I got that part.
I just don't understand why should it be this way. Why information flow should start from creative function for introverts? Why not from internal base for example?
 
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