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Discussion Starter #1
PATTERNS IN INFORMATION PROJECTIONS

ISTP

Information attracted to:
Present, thorough data that show who, what, when, where, how

Associations made:
Detached Analysis focused on practical issues leads to clarity about what should be done when

Expressions Offered:
Often quiet organizers of data, they ask questions to gain specificity about the situation they are in. When talking, they make practical observations.

ESTP

Information attracted to:
Present-oriented practical data that aids action now

Associations made:
Reliable and thorough action now will secure a realistic future in relationships and work

Expressions Offered:
Generally engaging with practical suggestions, though critical and forceful comments may be made.

KEY RELATIONSHIP QUALITIES


ISTP

Trust:
Information derived from experience

Honesty:
Precise observations about current situations

Nonjudgmental:
Candid statements about what is currently happening

ESTP

Trust:
Precision in the moment; concise interactions

Honesty:
Good-natured interactions recognizing the pace of change

Nonjudgmental:
Focus on the moment by attending to specifics


PREJUDICES, PRECONCEPTIONS, & HOT BUTTONS


ISTP

PRejudice:
Theory gets in the way of practical action

Preconception:
Skeptical analysis is reliable and thorough

Hot Button:
Group work that tolerates philosophical discussion and loses sight of tangible goals

ESTP

Prejudice:
Past is dead; Future cannot be predicted; Focus on now

Preconception:
Knowing specifics will lead to practical action

Hot Button:
Unrealistic and impractical suggestions

CLARIFYING COMMUNICATION


ISTP

General Style:
Somewhat detached and independent but good-natured style; often imaginative in responses yet questioning seems unconventional and betrays the organized analysis used to make sense of the world

Clarification:
Pursue practical and realistic discussion about action to take today, seem skeptical and unconcerned about personal outcomes

Reframing:
May need to show more interest in effects of situations on others and to express inclusion of others in conversations

ESTP

General Style:
Action orientation captured in excitable and energetic attention to the who, what, where, and when of a situation; critical nature overshadowed by ability to ease tensions in the present

Clarification:
Focus on the action now and forcefully get the facts

Reframing:
May need to show empathy and ask about personal values

APPLYING THE GOLDEN RULE


ISTP

Experiences valuing when:
Simple, practical actions are based on accurate information and a logical discussion

Expresses values by:
Focusing on current experiences and providing a model to explain in concrete terms what has occurred

Most needs to learn that:
People bring in personal histories and expectations that have nothing to do with the moment and that affect decisions made and actions taken

ESTP

Experiences valuing when:
Experiences affirm their competencies and abilities

Expresses values by:
Involving others in activities and supporting appropriate challenges

Most needs to learn that:
Quiet reflection is often a challenge and provides insights that cannot be gleaned from doing.
 

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Most needs to learn that:
People bring in personal histories and expectations that have nothing to do with the moment and that affect decisions made and actions taken
Interesting that you point this out.

If people were only to operate on the information they had in the moment, wouldn't one simply "regenerate" in every moment? How would one learn from the past to predict the future more accurately?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Interesting that you point this out.

If people were only to operate on the information they had in the moment, wouldn't one simply "regenerate" in every moment? How would one learn from the past to predict the future more accurately?
uuh...i don't know.

all i know is, I don't understand why people don't take a moment and encapsulate it. you will pollute your information and create bias if you constantly compare everything to what happened before.
 

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you will pollute your information and create bias if you constantly compare everything to what happened before.
It's true that it creates a bias, but that's not necessarily bad or pollutant.

If you were a hunter and some prey ran into the woods, would you follow it? If you knew that in the woods there would be more prey, but in the past others have tried to kill them and got torn apart, would you still go in?

Or, are you saying that you can weigh up what happened in the past, but you should take every opportunity on its own merit?

The problem I have understanding what you've said is that it seems to entail making the same mistakes over and over. I have noticed ISTPs reply to my opinions by saying things like "Yeah, but you can't know that." That's true, but my opinion can still be accurate, based as it is on past experience (and therefore extrapolating that data into the future).
 

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Interesting that you point this out.

If people were only to operate on the information they had in the moment, wouldn't one simply "regenerate" in every moment? How would one learn from the past to predict the future more accurately?
The issue isn't that we don't bring past information, but rather that others bring irrelevant information that should not have an effect.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Past experience only creates your logical framework for the present. every situation must be seen both from within the framework as well as on its own.

The problem I often encounter with others is that they only view things on their framework of the past. YOu can't constantly wear colored glasses when looking at things.

You must use both the subjective and objective viewpoint, with more weight given to the objective.
 
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The issue isn't that we don't bring past information, but rather that others bring irrelevant information that should not have an effect.
I imagine NFs in general might be a cause for concern for you.

We tend to bring up lots of things that may happen so that we can all agree that we don't want any of these things actually to occur. This is valuable for reasons too verbose to state, but I can imagine that conversation sounding like total irrelevance to most SPs.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I imagine NFs in general might be a cause for concern for you.

We tend to bring up lots of things that may happen so that we can all agree that we don't want any of these things actually to occur. This is valuable for reasons too verbose to state, but I can imagine that conversation sounding like total irrelevance to most SPs.
Welcome to the ISTP forum. 0_0
 

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I imagine NFs in general might be a cause for concern for you.

We tend to bring up lots of things that may happen so that we can all agree that we don't want any of these things actually to occur. This is valuable for reasons too verbose to state, but I can imagine that conversation sounding like total irrelevance to most SPs.
The way you describe it yes. That would be awful. However I have to query whether what you said is what you meant. You bring potential scenarios up, simply to reach the consensus that it is not a desirable outcome? That is completely rediculous to me. Bringing them up so you can avoid them, or if you are unsure whether it is wanted can be useful, although it is not my way of doing things (except when I lie for some reason, not quite sure why).
 

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This describes my two co-workers perfectly. Lol

One's ISTP and the other is ESTP.

ESTP
Expresses values by:
Involving others in activities and supporting appropriate challenges
This is really interesting, the ESTP guy does this to me a lot. What is he saying by doing this, that he values me????

@Khys What do you mean by "expresses values by" more specifically?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I believe the article is saying:

Experiences valuing when = the ESTP feels valued when
Expresses value by = The ESTP shows they value someone by
 
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I imagine NFs in general might be a cause for concern for you.

We tend to bring up lots of things that may happen so that we can all agree that we don't want any of these things actually to occur. This is valuable for reasons too verbose to state, but I can imagine that conversation sounding like total irrelevance to most SPs.
Quite the opposite. We're more often than not already aware of the most realistic outcomes whenever making a decision.

I just don't see a point in discussing the redundancy involved in a process that's so natural to me.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
@Adasta

I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. It sounds like you're saying you can't settle something between two people without going over the past to make sure you agree on the rights and wrongs?
 

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@Adasta

I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. It sounds like you're saying you can't settle something between two people without going over the past to make sure you agree on the rights and wrongs?
No, you can settle things without going over the past if you both agree to do so.

My point was more that xSTPs' focus is on the present, whereas xNFPs' focus is anywhere but the present. Since the present is simply unfolding, it can't be relied upon, since it's still unknown. ENFPs would be drawn away from the present to the future, where Ne suggests that things could be different. INFPs can be pulled to the past, since the present evokes something once experienced; this shines some light on the present, and informs how one should deal with it, and how things might be in the future if things were to carry on this way.

The NF "airing of grievances" is more akin to achieving a consensus where no party is "damaged" by any subsequent action. It's all well and good for xSTPs to act on what's there, since they have prevalent Se. But, for NFs, and for xNFPs in particular, Se is the least "valued" of the functions. It hints at impulse, poor judgement, and hedonism. We would like to avoid those things really, since their consequences are dangerous in their unpredictability.

But this is what you'd expect from xSTP and xNFP function stacking. Our processes annoy each other in equal measure. The odd thing with ISTPs (in my opinion) is that I often agree with them on most things, but the route we take to reach that conclusion is totally different.
 

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This is good stuff, did the article have other types?

I was paying attention more today at work, definitely matches well with my ESTP coworker, it's harder to tell with the ISTP.

ESTP
Hot Button:
Unrealistic and impractical suggestions
This is why I hate working with this ESTP. Every time I say something creative he just straight up says that's stupid. I usually try not to talk at all, that's where my strengths lie anyway. Lol
 

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Se is the least "valued" of the functions. It hints at impulse, poor judgement, and hedonism. We would like to avoid those things really, since their consequences are dangerous in their unpredictability.
Its funny, I would say exactly the same thing about Ne. It really helps to highlight the differences in thought.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
This is good stuff, did the article have other types?

I was paying attention more today at work, definitely matches well with my ESTP coworker, it's harder to tell with the ISTP.



This is why I hate working with this ESTP. Every time I say something creative he just straight up says that's stupid. I usually try not to talk at all, that's where my strengths lie anyway. Lol
It's from the book "I'm not crazy, I'm just not you" They had all the types, but it would've been too much to re-type on here..
 
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