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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So Keirsey has different temperments finding different ways to justify action. Rationals use reason (clearly) Artisans go with the impulses (gotta agree) Gaurdians just trust authority mainly (hard to understand but I feel like I've seen it in practice. Gaurdians can be so rigid and irrational about doing things "by the book")

So what about Idealists using intuition? Is this a stretch just to come up with something catchy for the last personality type?

And by the way, what even is "Idealism"? Are you idealistic? Aspiring? I don't get that either.



If someone could help me I'd love that. I'd really like NF's to answer with their own personal experiences (of course anyone is welcome, and I know my fellow NT's will be hard pressed not to answer for them haha). I feel like I've studied most of the material so I basically "get it" but just cannot come up with any compelling real life examples in my own mind. To me it seems Kerisey is really stretching things with the "Idealists" to make the personality type unique. I'm sure I'm wrong but that's my perception.
 

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Here are a couple definitions of intuition from M/Word:

(1) Instinctive knowledge: the state of being aware of or knowing something without having to discover or perceive it, or the ability to do this.

(2) Instinctive Belief: something known or believed instinctively, without actual evidence for it.

I strongly rely on my intuition to navigate through life, more than I rely on simple logic. I'm often not aware of how I come to understand stuff, and, also, how I come to communicate stuff. Often, I arrive at opinions or realizations through speaking and writing. I don't know how I arrive at these platforms, I just do. Spontaneous ideas, opinions, understandings, and concepts are constantly coming to light when I'm having conversations, and (this may be a more Introverted/Feeling thing) so are intuitions or perceptions on the others’ inner feelings, thoughts, and generally what’s not being said - but this does not mean I don't understand what I'm communicating, I do, intuitively. The trick is learning to communicate my insights or opinions with others who may not intuit the same stuff I do, like finding the right words to say what I mean. So I’m vigorously analyzing them inside and out to figure out how best to communicate specifically with them. This may sound like a lot, but it all happens quite naturally and simply.

Basically, using intuition is following your instincts and your feelings, but can also be used in expressing yourself - like creative ideas, abstract concepts, and artistic stuff. Sometimes you just know, you know? lol And, sometimes you just do, you know?


Idealism:

(1) Belief in perfection: belief in and pursuit of perfection as an attainable goal.

(2) Living by high ideals: aspiring to or living in accordance with high standards or principles.

Idealists in my view have a more romanticized view of life than non-idealists. Like children, we want things to be perfect, magical, and special; and sometimes we get equally, though, albeit, more maturely upset when things aren’t that way. Whether global issues like poverty and war or smaller issues like mating and work, idealists - in Type-logic - will strive for their ideal of perfection; "perfection" pertaining to that idealist’s standards of such. What's perfect for one idealist may not be so for another. Pursuing a big dream, searching for a soul mate, perfecting a piece of art work are all forms of idealism – but this doesn’t mean these people would be considered Idealists by Type-logic. According to this Type-logic, some of us seem be a bit ‘more’ idealistic than others, thus we’re called the Idealists.

Well, hope I helped. I may be wrong in my understanding of these concepts from a Type-junkie’s perspective (as I am not one), but I tried my best.


Cheers
:wink:
 

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I don't really know how to explain intuition but to help you understand idealism. I am told I am a highly desireable female and have been asked out by many guys over the years. I have for over 12 years tured them all down, although have a super strong libido and having been extremly attracted to many of them. Sometimes I've even felt suicidal out of desperation in this regard. Why in the world do I put myself through it? Idealism. I don't want to have a physical relationship outside of marriage and I haven't met anyone who shares my belief systems, that is also available and I like enough to marry. That is the single largest piece of info. I can give you that might help. Each Idealist has their own ideals so each person will tell you something different but after a while you start seeing patterns.
About aspiring... I think you could say I aspire to be an unfailing friend, an inspiring artist, ect., ect.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Okay thanks, it is reassuring to hear that stuff. I'm especially grateful for Jason's reply because he confirmed the theory and is also male. It seems to me females by nature can also be kind of intuitive (ever heard the phrase "a woman's intuition") because of gender rather than personality, so that was cool to hear a male who experiences life that way (not that it is necessarily effeminate in anyway to be intuitive).


I guess it's just a matter of balance and maturity but a lot of NF's seem highly intelligent and good with conceptual conversations but some of them seem really just out to lunch and inconsistent and utterly detached from reality in their thinking. My brother is an NF and I honestly think he is mentally retarded sometimes. Sounds extremely harsh but honestly this guy just does not use his mind in a disciplined fashion. I imagine if he had more maturity and balance he would not be that way but at the present I think he is an extremely lop-sided and immature NF (he's like 20). He is impossible to talk to. I'm not the only one that feels that way.


Anyone else feel like if you are not disciplined in cultivating the natural strengths of idealism and intuition NF's can be kinda ridiculous? I say this and it sounds harsh but I have my most fulfilling, fruitful conversations with mature NF's. I do think highly of them.
 

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Yes, I think that regardless of your personality type focusing on balance and building your natural personality into something useful is mandatory. I think we all have the responsibility to others to not just weakly melt into our natural faults. “Out to lunch”, yeh that can get old.
 

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My Intuition works almost automatically. Sometimes I'll be thinking about something, and all of a sudden my mind is attacked by another thought. It's not very easy to describe (at least for me). Here's an example: my friend got a text and was like, "No way!" Based on the tone and intensity, I was like, "Hmm, something bad happened..." Then I got an idea of a car crash. Then I was like, who could it be? I picked him mom. So after thinking this in about 2 seconds, I asked him what happened to confirm my hunch. I was right. His mom got rear ended.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hm that's so funny. So it does seem kinda "psychic" but probably there were some guiding rational factors behind the scenes like your knowledge of your friend and his family, your own personal life experiences, etc. etc. all sorta coming together at once to give you an accurate hunch.

Would you agree? I know as an NT I kinda have a tendency to "wreck things" by analyzing them. I will be the first to admit that not everything requires calculating rationality. But I am just really curious to get to the bottom of this.

And if I can pose another question...are NF's academically inclined? I knew an INFJ who was like the math champion of the school but was very abstract and intuitive. How could that sort of mental "style" jive with something like mathematics or anything else in school? As a matter of fact, getting to know her, one thing I liked about her was how ruthlessly logical she was. She could really get past the emotion and the spin and place a value on the facts instead. I loved that about her and would start arguments (the friendly, stimulating kind) with her thinking she was more cerebral like me but she HATES arguments and would just melt, so definitely still NF.
 

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Idealists are so closely linked with a Thinkers nature I'd tend to think that listening to their intuition would be a difficult task. As far as my own experience, intuition is generally an involuntary tug or feeling. For instance, in college my boyfriend drove 8 hours to visit me and upon his departure I had this overwhelming feeling something was going to happen. I expressed many times for him to be careful driving. Sure enough on his way home, he hit a deer...not just once, but twice! Even now I find I experience unexplainable tugs to drive a different route home, or walk down a different path. My mind says, "What? Why?" but in the end, I just do what my gut says...who knows what it might save me from.

As far as NF's being academically inclined. We push ourselves to perfection. We do dig deep to understand many levels of things but unless we have an interest in it...we won't sit there and argue the case. There is no point of debating who's right or wrong because as you know, we don't like to argue.

I do remember reading something about people using their intuitive nature to solve complex math problems, you may want to google and read up on that. It seems to me if this is the case, perhaps the problem was solved more on a subconcious level, did you ever ask her how she came to solve a problem? My guess is she had to focus and offer a step by step layout of the solution instead of imagining the solution as a whole.
 
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It seems to me if this is the case, perhaps the problem was solved more on a subconcious level, did you ever ask her how she came to solve a problem? My guess is she had to focus and offer a step by step layout of the solution instead of imagining the solution as a whole.
I've solved some very complex R&D problems this way. Usually it's in a dream or while on the toilet. I'm not kidding. The difficult part is then translating it detail by detail for thinking types to understand and not admitting to how I really solved the problem.

People make fun of companies like Google for having such a laid back and playful environment at work, but they really do understand that a relaxed environment cultivates innovation for intuitives.
 

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And if I can pose another question...are NF's academically inclined? I knew an INFJ who was like the math champion of the school but was very abstract and intuitive. How could that sort of mental "style" jive with something like mathematics or anything else in school? As a matter of fact, getting to know her, one thing I liked about her was how ruthlessly logical she was. She could really get past the emotion and the spin and place a value on the facts instead. I loved that about her and would start arguments (the friendly, stimulating kind) with her thinking she was more cerebral like me but she HATES arguments and would just melt, so definitely still NF.
Being a T or an F has nothing to do with being good at maths or being academically disinclined. It is just that being an F your mind with automatically place more value on people. People will be valuable and interesting to you as objects of your mind's interest. More of your attention will be diverted towards thinking about topics relating to human existence and relationships. You will value cooperation over competition and naturally be averse to heated arguments and one-upping others in conversation. MBTI though is not an IQ or EQ test. The labeling thinker and feeler I find is rather unfortunate as it leads to all kinds of misunderstandings and people trying to test as thinkers as they think it is superior somehow and makes them look smarter. Labels a la competitive vs cooperative would have been much more to the point.

Even though your INFJ friend is a feeler her feeler function is Fe, not Fi. As such she is unlikely to take things subjectively and become hurt herself. However she is likely to become turned off when talking to you if you use any sort of expressions that are aimed at putting people down, that lack social tact. I have noticed that some NTs do have propensity to use phraseology that can sound like ad hominem attacks. The aim of the argument should be not winning over the other person - the aim should be seeking new input, seeking knowledge, seeking reasons to either modify or strengthen your own lines of thinking. If you turn an argument into a sport of some kind, this will likely to turn off many NFs from participating.
 

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If you're S and walk into a living room, you'd know it's a living room because there is a couch, a coffee table, a tv, family pictures on the wall etc. If you're N you know it's a living room because it's a living room. It's about not being concious about the details but that "whole" the details create. For a sensor, 1+1=2. For an iNtuitive, there's just 2.

We know things without being able to tell exactly why we know them, because the details doesn't get processed conciously.
 
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