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Admittedly I'm not too trusting of a site arguing the validity of astrology...less so when they then try to hide that argument in big science words and a superiority complex. Classic theory would suggest he's mistyped to be making this argument to begin with as well. <shrug>

As far as the topic goes, though, this reflects my opinion on the cognitive functions: Cognitive Functions and Type Dynamics - A Failed Theory? | Oddly Developed Types I don't doubt what the writer is observing, but I do doubt his explanation (and MBTI/classic cognitive functions theory's explanation too) for what's actually going on under the hood.
 
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I don't doubt what the writer is observing, but I do doubt his explanation (and MBTI/classic cognitive functions theory's explanation too) for what's actually going on under the hood.
My exact thought. The pattern exists, but the explanation is likely wrong.
 

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Yep, I've seen his articles before and he speaks to a fundamental part of INFJs that isn't usually discussed anywhere else. I think he does take much of his understanding from INFJ 4s, though, so perhaps not all INFJs would relate.

My exact thought. The pattern exists, but the explanation is likely wrong.
What would be the explanation, @Marvin the Dendroid? I think he could just be describing a severe Ni-Ti loop (and depression). I'm also not one for the 8-function model.
 
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What would be the explanation, @Marvin the Dendroid ? I think he could just be describing a severe Ni-Ti loop (and depression). I'm also not one for the 8-function model.
I'll have to think about that. My gut reaction was "this is stretched well beyond the believable", looking for explanations in places that fit an existing pattern only because you need everything to fit that pattern even when it doesn't.

He's right when he says INFJs need to express themselves via Fe to do better. Of course, it's not as simple as just doing it, there's always a reason for your Fe shutting down in the first place. Whether it's burn-out or depression or something else, you can't just Fe your way out of it. You need to fix what's broken. Get out of that abusive relationship, or quit that soul-destroying job, or cut all ties to that narcissistic parent... Whatever it is. And get into a good place where time & rest will allow you to heal.

I'm undecided on the 8 function model, I just don't feel that bringing Fi into this particular situation explains anything. Sounds to me like he's trying to fit his observations into a mental model he has even when those observations don't necessarily fit. Overreliance on Ni+Ti with a depressed Fe could be one explanation. It could also be something entirely outside of Jungian concepts. I'll have to think about it.
 

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I don’t know what the man has to say about Astrology, which I think is nonsense— but what he is saying about SOME Fi in INFJs has to be correct, isn’t it? Otherwise INFJs would almost have no mood of their own, you’d only channel everyone around you. Except Fi in no way plays as big a part as he is saying, or else it would manifest more strongly and differently. Very differently.

So if you just read a bunch of neuroscience along with getting a base-line from Dario Nardi’s work then you know that all of us can develop functions— I see Ni, Ne, Si and Se as coordinating learning in different ways and Fi, Ti, Te and Fe as just using different decision making areas of the brain.. I was reading some studies a while back that basically taught 2 different kinds of empathy to their participants which showed up in different parts of the brain and the group studying it were drawing conclusions of which type of empathy was better. The way it was being taught? #1. “Respond sympathetically to what you are hearing and seeing as someone’s emotions. #2. Imagine what you yourself would feel if this story happened to you. The different corresponding parts of the brain lit up, telling them that they had indeed taught subjects 2 different ways to empathize. They concluded #1 was the best kind of empathy because afterwards people “acted more extroverted” and “all parties, both the sympathizer and the person telling the story reported feeling better afterwards.” So I was quite horrified at the conclusion because in MBTI functions are preached as “not better, just different”. They concluded with everyone should practice #1 more.
This is alarming to me and I immediately wrote a book in my head about a distopia where everyone is forced to take pills that make them more ESTJ-like. We NEED the MBTI attitude to move into neuroscience, in my opinion. I want other names to quote as well as Nardi’s.

Anyway what I’m saying is... we do use all functions.

Dario Nardi recently said that An ESTJ who studied shamanism went full blown INFJ on his screen when the man was doing something shamanic.

And Dario (INTJ) said also that when he is meditating his brain scan looks ISFP..... INFJs would likely look ISTP in meditation is my guess. Dario says he has to meditate with eyes open, otherwise too easy to go into an Ni-trip, btw.

I don’t see why Brothers Karamazov wouldn’t be about Fi gone wrong and likely Ni-Ti out of control with a neglect or negative influence with Fe. Sure, it’s just you can’t blame it all on one function I don’t think. If his Fi went bad wouldn’t Fe save him? No, because Ti said this was all reasonable and Ni planned the whole thing or even gave him the plan...Etc etc etc....

No wonder there are a lot of aggressive ESTJs...with Fi suppressed and Te okay with killing in the military, let’s say... that’s a recipe for yikes. I’d say we need to encourage up and coming ESTJ shaman. :)
 

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I'll have to think about that. My gut reaction was "this is stretched well beyond the believable", looking for explanations in places that fit an existing pattern only because you need everything to fit that pattern even when it doesn't.
I guess that could be some Ni-Ti at work, or at least Ti. I've wondered if he's an INFJ himself. I don't think he's ever revealed his type, but it wouldn't surprise me.

He's right when he says INFJs need to express themselves via Fe to do better. Of course, it's not as simple as just doing it, there's always a reason for your Fe shutting down in the first place. Whether it's burn-out or depression or something else, you can't just Fe your way out of it. You need to fix what's broken. Get out of that abusive relationship, or quit that soul-destroying job, or cut all ties to that narcissistic parent... Whatever it is. And get into a good place where time & rest will allow you to heal.
Very good point. That's actually where Se comes more in handy than Fe, when you act to change!

I'm undecided on the 8 function model, I just don't feel that bringing Fi into this particular situation explains anything. Sounds to me like he's trying to fit his observations into a mental model he has even when those observations don't necessarily fit. Overreliance on Ni+Ti with a depressed Fe could be one explanation. It could also be something entirely outside of Jungian concepts. I'll have to think about it.
As far as I can tell, he's mostly taking this idea from Socionics (with his own interpretation of it) where Fi is said to be unconscious (Id) in the INFJ. Fi would be our Demonstrative function: https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/functions/Id
 

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Have a quick read and for some it will make a lot of sense while for others who only see four functions then ignore the rest it will be an annoyance.

https://www.stellarmaze.com/fi-in-infjs/
I'll talk about it a little bit, but it won't be definitive. Think of those four-letter personality types as words. You may refine them as you like. Words contrast. Sixteen are easier to recognize than dozens of combinations. The suggestion to rate strengths is a possibility but you have to be careful. What if I'm changing? What if I use one trait more when I'm in an agreeable mood or a conscientious mood? You see there are lots of variables. Furthermore is the test reliable and valid?

Think of a complex system like the weather. We can still talk about weather patterns, can't we? Yet the words we use aren't precise, but they serve an imprecise purpose. Furthermore those functions interact. Feeling for one type isn't the same as feeling for another type. Using auxiliary, tertiary and inferior concepts has more to do with dependency than strength.

Astrology and science? What science? Predicting something or the behavior of the user?
 
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As far as I can tell, he's mostly taking this idea from Socionics (with his own interpretation of it) where Fi is said to be unconscious (Id) in the INFJ. Fi would be our Demonstrative function: https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/functions/Id
Sounds like it. I've always found Filatova's work on Socionics speculative beyond reason. Not that MBTI is exact... Socionics just feels even more speculative. We don't have any direct knowledge about cognitive functions, these are all intuitive patterns we feel we can detect ... but ultimately, they may or may not exist. In any case, we do know that our brains are interconnected in all kinds of ways - there isn't an "Fi function" sitting in one corner doing "Fi-things" the way we have fingers. Instead, we have fluid, dynamic, fuzzy patterns.

It makes some sense to me to talk about "Ni" and "Ti" and "Fe" in an "INFJ" context, but I never kid myself that these are exact representations of what's actually going on in the brain. Even Nardi's EEG studies are fuzzy at best, they don't go particularly deep into the brain and the resolution is very low.

As for Fi vs. Fe, I don't necessarily think that it makes sense to imagine that the entirety of our emotional experiences would be covered by one or the other, or both even. Emotions have primacy, our interpretation of them is secondary. We all probably share certain emotional layers in our less evolved (reptilian etc.) brains, and things get more differentiated the further out you move, into the more recently added parts of the brain such as the neocortex. Somewere there, we seem to have a preference for experiencing+expressing emotion that to some extent at least is patterned along the Fi/Fe axis.
 

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Sounds like it. I've always found Filatova's work on Socionics speculative beyond reason. Not that MBTI is exact... Socionics just feels even more speculative. We don't have any direct knowledge about cognitive functions, these are all intuitive patterns we feel we can detect ... but ultimately, they may or may not exist. In any case, we do know that our brains are interconnected in all kinds of ways - there isn't an "Fi function" sitting in one corner doing "Fi-things" the way we have fingers. Instead, we have fluid, dynamic, fuzzy patterns.

It makes some sense to me to talk about "Ni" and "Ti" and "Fe" in an "INFJ" context, but I never kid myself that these are exact representations of what's actually going on in the brain. Even Nardi's EEG studies are fuzzy at best, they don't go particularly deep into the brain and the resolution is very low.

As for Fi vs. Fe, I don't necessarily think that it makes sense to imagine that the entirety of our emotional experiences would be covered by one or the other, or both even. Emotions have primacy, our interpretation of them is secondary. We all probably share certain emotional layers in our less evolved (reptilian etc.) brains, and things get more differentiated the further out you move, into the more recently added parts of the brain such as the neocortex. Somewere there, we seem to have a preference for experiencing+expressing emotion that to some extent at least is patterned along the Fi/Fe axis.
I think the more I learn about neuroscience the more I think we will totally map all of the brain. The thing is— it is pretty darn mapped whether we call different areas MBTI functions or not. Yes, it’s all top of the brain at this point, so there is probably infinitely more to learn. Plus there are like 20% of lefties (some statistic I saw, but I saw a bit higher statistic elsewhere) whose brains do not map in the way other lefties (who are often mirror-image of righties) and they map randomly and unlike anyone else. You’d have to put them through different tasks and basically start from scratch with mapping each person like that. So there is plenty to be creative with there. There’s plenty of anomalies and such. 99% of righties have their functions in the same place,(according to what I read last week) but there’s a 1%.

Nardi’s work reflects the usual mapping. As I think almost neuroscience tests would have to. People’s brains do adapt to do what you teach them...but to me, I think neuroscience is pretty far and will get further. It definitely answers a lot of questions. Just because we don’t see the mid-brain yet doesn’t mean that what is here isn’t useful to understand.
I should move this over to the neuroscience thread. Poor Edwardian!

It’s not like I’m not skeptical... but shouldn’t we be skeptical of everything? Like the way we view MBTI? Science gives me data, though. Nardi would either have to be legit (which his UCLA backing would suggest) or a complete charlatan who is fooling other neuroscientists in order for his work not to be of worth to MBTI. It’s MBTI that is poorly accepted and will need lots of studies to show it can be mapped and of worth to neuroscience, I would think. But after reading stuff outside of Nardi I kind of got a feel for where we are at in the research of seeing what a brain is doing...a peak, anyway.

So... @Marvin the Dendroid. Nardi’s work suggests there are consistent patterns (of usage) of the brain that is the constant go-to of INFJs and INtJs and that other types don’t usually show. Although it sounds like the flow state usually seen for a learning task in NI-doms can be taught, especially for certain mind activities.
IfI say that like a fact, tell me what doubts or questions come up and why?

My only problem is that I need work done by others and with bigger sample size to strengthen the research. In my field I research skepticism for lots of controversial studies, but if there were lots of these studies and many neuroscientists showing P-values with high significance for consistent patterns for MBTI functions, would there still be a problem with it for people interested in Jung? Why? Because I have been seeing how unenthusiastic many people are, when you would think it would just validate all of our talk (everyone’s) on PerC.
 

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My take: you can only have 4 functions. What may look like Fi in a Fe user is actually just a different form of Fe. To me the functions are a part of your brain expressed outwardly (environmentally reflective) or inwardly (self reflective) and it is self contradictory for them to be able to do both for the same function.
 
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So... @Marvin the Dendroid . Nardi’s work suggests there are consistent patterns (of usage) of the brain that is the constant go-to of INFJs and INTJs and that other types don’t usually show. Although it sounds like the flow state usually seen for a learning task in NI-doms can be taught, especially for certain mind activities.
If I say that like a fact, tell me what doubts or questions come up and why?
I don't doubt that there are patterns - there definitely are patterns. It is enough to watch mankind to realise that there are patterns. All I'm saying is that EEG patterns are very low-res, just as MBTI concepts are. EEG - or even fMRI - is more like the picture on the left. I highly doubt that MBTI (or Socionics, or any personality theory) would match a high-res image of our brains very well, but there likely is a fuzzy match which does kind of agree with low-res EEG images.

 

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I believe it's quite accurate.

But the gap between conceptual knowledge and really living/going through something is just, fucking massive... and can not be easily captured or confirmed via consensus on a forum like this, where most users are much younger (less experienced, more neuroplastic) because Ni-Ti loops really get a rollin' in all there grandeur, usually in the mid to late 30's. And this is speaking to an even smaller portion of those, who remain in hiding/retreat via severely injured Fe, extensively and long enough, to the complete psychic degradation of ego and super-ego, down to an Fi id (which certainly looks to be a constant companion of my own Ni-Ti loop.) And, based on what I've observed of the OP, I think I can see why he makes this connection. and why Marvin (in a much less severe Ni-Ti loop) projects his own awareness of blindly accepting such model.

Personally, I'd like to hear from INFJ's in an Ni-Ti loop for oh say, more than 5 years. Are you lurking? Please chime in! Though I doubt ya will ;)
 
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I believe it's quite accurate.

But the gap between conceptual knowledge and really living/going through something is just, fucking massive... and can not be easily captured or confirmed via consensus on a forum like this, where most users are much younger (less experienced, more neuroplastic) because Ni-Ti loops really get a rollin' in all there grandeur, usually in the mid to late 30's. And this is speaking to an even smaller portion of those, who remain in hiding/retreat via severely injured Fe, extensively and long enough, to the complete psychic degradation of ego and super-ego, down to an Fi id (which certainly looks to be a constant companion of my own Ni-Ti loop.) And, based on what I've observed of the OP, I think I can see why he makes this connection. and why Marvin (in a much less severe Ni-Ti loop) projects his own awareness of blindly accepting such model.

Personally, I'd like to hear from INFJ's in an Ni-Ti loop for oh say, more than 5 years. Are you lurking? Please chime in! Though I doubt ya will ;)
Depends on how you define a loop. I don't think you can be an INFJ and never use your Fe. You just try to not use it too much when it's worn out. Besides, people break down differently, and more along Enneatype than MB type lines.
 

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Depends on how you define a loop. I don't think you can be an INFJ and never use your Fe. You just try to not use it too much when it's worn out. Besides, people break down differently, and more along Enneatype than MB type lines.
Enneagram just demonstrates the motivation. I suspect that when the motivation shifts (along the spectrum integration or disintegration) so does a particular users neural pathways, because it's very much a dance between the two. And I wouldn't personally feel comfortable speculating on what an INFJ's Fe might look and act like if their unconscious functions turned inside out with the conscious, as my own experience seems to be pointing to the realization that whenever I engage others IRL, Fe comes back online without effort (though constantly interrupted by Ti analysis and glass wall) but, I'd agree that such a person would no longer fit within the usual theories or models. I don't think the people need to change, but the models need to expand to capture outliers.
 
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Enneagram just demonstrates the motivation. I suspect that when the motivation shifts (along the spectrum of e-gram integration or disintegration) so does a particular users neural pathways, because it's very much a dance between the two. And I wouldn't personally feel comfortable speculating on what an INFJ's Fe might look and act like if their unconscious functions turned inside out with the conscious, as my own experience seems to be pointing to the realization that whenever I engage others IRL, Fe comes back online without effort (though constantly interrupted by Ti analysis and glass wall) but, I'd agree that such a person would no longer fit within the usual theories or models.
I don't feel a glass wall, it feels more like ... you did too much weights at the gym and now your arms are completely spent and aching. So it takes effort to use them and it hurts. You still use them of course, it's not like you no longer have arms. You just get tired a lot faster and it's a pain.

Why do you think you're looping, if I may ask? Exhaustion?
 

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I don't feel a glass wall, it feels more like ... you did too much weights at the gym and now your arms are completely spent and aching. So it takes effort to use them and it hurts. You still use them of course, it's not like you no longer have arms. You just get tired a lot faster and it's a pain.

Why do you think you're looping, if I may ask? Exhaustion?
Poor boundaries. I feel that I lose myself into the others, when I engage. That I forget or sacrifice my own well-being, because I constantly prioritize understanding them more than exerting my own perspective, to the degree that IRL, I cant even process my own deeper feelings in the company of others, much of the time. Or, if it involves things I do have a strong opinion on, it still seems that in the moment, it is more powerful and valuable to help them with their feelings/perspectives than enforce my own.

So, the loop began as an exhaustion, as a feeling that I gave more than I received, but after so long Ti broke all of Fe down, to the point that I cant Fe any longer, without Ti interjecting a constant analysis and over-processing of the interaction. It's as though a part of me plays the part, but another part (standing behind the glass) is always observing with no emotional consideration, just cold and detached analysis. And that part is louder, unless the exchange becomes intense and sincere enough to hold me in Fe-real time.

The thing is, once weaker Ti reveals all the Fe values that one initially held to be manipulative, logically inconsistent, self-serving agendas (which again, probably takes considerable time locked into a loop) one just might become more than a little disgruntled that they suffered so much under 'false pretenses'. But unlike a mature Ti user who's developed their ego structure around higher-access to it, one just might need to find a way to channel all that feeling. And that is where, I believe.. Fi id comes into play.
 
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Poor boundaries. I feel that I lose myself into the others, when I engage. That I forget or sacrifice my own well-being, because I constantly prioritize understanding them more than exerting my own perspective, to the degree that IRL, I cant even process my own deeper feelings in the company of others, much of the time. Or, if it involves things I do have a strong opinion on, it still seems that in the moment, it is more powerful and valuable to help them with their feelings/perspectives than enforce my own.
Eggs actly. Personally, my opinions (which I think are more of a Ti thing for an INFJ?) don't go anywhere, but my feelings fail to stay present unless the other person is very emotionally subdued. The more emotional energy they exude, the more I feel them and the less I feel myself. I have tried a thousand things to prevent this from happening, but nothing seems to work. I can inhibit the expression of what happens within me emotionally in the presence of others, but I seem unable to do anything about what goes on internally. It's automatic, like this.

So, the loop began as an exhaustion, as a feeling that I gave more than I received, but after so long Ti broke all of Fe down, to the point that I cant Fe any longer, without Ti interjecting a constant analysis and over-processing of the interaction. It's as though a part of me plays the part, but another part (standing behind the glass) is always observing with no emotional consideration, just cold and detached analysis. And that part is louder, unless the exchange becomes intense and sincere enough to hold me in Fe-real time.
I get your glass wall metaphor now. Maybe I am less aware of my analysis in the moment. I generally don't have an active voice in my head saying anything when I interact with people, but that could be the E9 parts of me suppressing self-awareness. I am aware of my "Ti opinions" at all times, but tend not to voice them unless I feel that the other party is receptive. "Ti opinions" would be things like what the status and the future of the world look like, politics, religion ... stuff you can build a rational argument around.

You didn't say what happened to Fe-xhaust you. An abusive relationship? I had one of those, still partially stuck with it (divorced, kids).

The thing is, once weaker Ti reveals all the Fe values that one initially held to be manipulative, logically inconsistent, self-serving agenda's (which again, probably takes considerable time locked into a loop) one just might become more than a little disgruntled that they suffered so much under 'false pretenses'. But unlike a mature Ti user who's developed their ego structure around higher-access to it, one just might need to find a way to channel all that feeling. And that is where, I believe Fi id comes into play.
Does it have to be Fi id? Or just id? I'm not sure MBTI terminology is valid for that experience. Take someone who isn't supposed to use any Fi - say, an INTP - they would still have an id, and their id would still be about primal instincts. I'm not sure calling it Fi adds anything useful since at least in my experience, it doesn't operate like real Fi (say, the Fi of an INFP).
 

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Yeah, no one here talks about this because we can't talk here but we can write and did about this.

For a looooooooong time, it's a known fact that every people use their all functions, 4 primary functions are just preferred functions, shadow functions are the functions that people use when they really need to use, Fi function is one of the most used function regardless of MBTI type because of its connection to the ego, et cetera.

The article is totally a waste of time because it's clearly about type 4 INFJ, there is nothing new to learn, too much subjectivity (there are statements and no explanation), examples are about fictional characters, Fi's characteristics wrote like it's only exclusive to INFJs which is not, statements about obvious facts wrote like the writer is the only one who discovered particular facts and some parts of the article is wrong.
 
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