[Tridentus]

i'm so sick of posting this:
people are BORN an mbti type.. that's why parents often think they can spot their childs personality from when they were babies. stress and different factors may make you "become" another type- at least it will seem like it, and this is especially true of NFs who are eager to find themselves and to learn from mistakes, but essentially you will always be the type you were born with.

an anxiety suffering reculsive ENFP is not then an INFP, an NF who makes mistakes in life and decides logic is preferable is not then an NT. they will simply be stressed versions of their type and will never truly be anything like the type they claim to have "changed into/from".

just to state: this is a part of the mbti theory, and was the view expressed of katherine cook briggs and isabel myers briggs. dunno what carl jung thought but i'd imagine it was the same.

 

[Mephisto]

If i could say my opinion on this (and I will), it is true that people don't change types. But they are not born with it.
I would say that MBTI is just an assessment of how the person perceives (and judges) the world, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't measure anything else, but because of someones personality, it is natural that if he focuses(uncosciously) on particular things in life, he will become better in them. The reason people say they changed type is because they focus on the things they think about, not on the how they think about.
Anyway, I agree with your opinion.

 

[Tridentus]

so you're saying you agree, but think that people aren't born as types? i'm a little confused.

i agree and disagree with your point too. i don't think that, say.. an ENFP (because i believe this to be common), who uses Fi a lot and is relatively reclusive can say that they are an INFP. An ENFP can't be fully healthy using Fi as much as an INFP does- and indeed no person of this description can fulfill their full potential. i also have a theory that the function order of types is an indicator of how enjoyable the different functions are, and how stressful, to use for a particular person. so going back to my ENFP->INFP example, if i were to overuse Fi, which i tend to when i'm on my own too much, i become unhappy and unhealthy.
so when people say they've changed type i think it's either a subconscious/deliberate decision that they've made to act and think a certain way, believing it is worth the inner friction it causes them, perhaps due to outside social pressure and mistakes "learned from", or it's been rubbed off being in the company of a lot of a different type.

basically, if i were to study and study Te, Ni, Se, Fi and somehow learn to incorporate them as the way i think, even from as a baby (if that were possible), i would STILL not be an ENTJ, because i would naturally be an ENFP. and instead i would be a severely unhealthy and unhappy version of an ENFP (of course no ENFP ever deviates quite THAT much).
another thing is types under stress, an ENFP under stress would begin to use opposing ISTJ functions, but in an unhealthy way. a possible mix of that could end up with an ENFP believing they are a depressive INFP or ENTP etc.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I'm inclined to agree that cognitive functions are innate, which is all MBTI measures. I realize there is little to no hard evidence to back this up, but it makes more sense to me in theory. However, personality goes beyond functions. For example, enneagram discusses an aspect of personality that involves deeply rooted, subconscious, emotional motivations formed in early childhood.

 

[weka]

i'm so sick of posting this:
people are BORN an mbti type..

an anxiety suffering reculsive ENFP is not then an INFP, an NF who makes mistakes in life and decides logic is preferable is not then an NT. they will simply be stressed versions of their type and will never truly be anything like the type they claim to have "changed into/from".

I heard a radio ad today for a childrens camp that would turn your introverted reclusive child into an agressive sporting hero who presumably then becomes a CEO. :crazy:

It was sad and funny. Laughing at the ignorance of the parents that would believe such a thing and sad for the child who was about to be exposed to it against their will.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

We can conclude that many personality traits can be observed very early on (not necessarily a "type") and that for the most part it's hardware. So to reiterate the OP, you're not an extrovert when you speak publicly.

 

[Archangel]

Nature vs Nurture. Nuff said.

 

[Humaning]

Archengel is right, in his succinct responce; this depicts the same paradoxical argument that underlines all deveopment. Jung claims thought that children are usually born without much of a distinction between thinking or feeling but then begin to make their prefferences more pronounced. Perhaps you had a strong sense of identity as a child, but I dont see that in everybody, not even including myself. However, as I look at my three year old brother I could very easily predict where his identity is going, even if he diviates from both extremes of wanting to be right all the time to being empathetic beyond his years and being overly dramatic at times. I think we are born with tendencies that go beyond personality (ego,) which for one reason or another are best complemented by one or more modes of cognitive thinking.
So I, in part I agree with you; we have innate tendencies which drive our sense of identity, but I disagree that we are born with a type, as if we been programmed, without hope of escape, to act as a four letter code. Scientists are now discovering that DNA sequences, our most basic building blocks, is much more mutable than thought of before; they can change according to lifestyle choices.

 

[TreeBob]

I think we are born with the building blocks of our type. But a child's brain is ever changing as they learn and I think maybe the synapses haven't been fully created until later on.

For more information I encourage you to read this short article.
Making Connections: Helping Children Build Their Brains The Future in Our Hands


I should note that I do agree your type doesn't change, I just think you don't solidify your type at birth.

 

[Introspiritual]

dunno what carl jung thought but i'd imagine it was the same.

Jung was a student/contemporary of Freud, who posited that personality was relatively set by age 6 or so - so he probably started off with this viewpoint as well. Most modern studies show observable preferences by age 2, and by age 8 they're well-defined.

 

[Psilocin]

i'm so sick of posting this:
people are BORN an mbti type.. that's why parents often think they can spot their childs personality from when they were babies. stress and different factors may make you "become" another type- at least it will seem like it, and this is especially true of NFs who are eager to find themselves and to learn from mistakes, but essentially you will always be the type you were born with.

an anxiety suffering reculsive ENFP is not then an INFP, an NF who makes mistakes in life and decides logic is preferable is not then an NT. they will simply be stressed versions of their type and will never truly be anything like the type they claim to have "changed into/from".

just to state: this is a part of the mbti theory, and was the view expressed of katherine cook briggs and isabel myers briggs. dunno what carl jung thought but i'd imagine it was the same.

Huh.

Isn't one of the descriptors of ENFP being that they state things as facts, even if they don't actually know if they're facts?

This discussion has to do largely with developmental psychology- Not simply MBTI type.

Jung's cognitive function theory was a way used to diagnose neurotic disorders. So, tell me, can a child of 4 months even be aware of itself, let alone aware enough to develop such defense mechanisms or cognitive preferences?

Let's make assumptions about things we have no fucking clue about!

 

[Tridentus]

thanks for your responses.. but they're all factors which are observed in mbti theory as well.

as a child grows up they develop their primary function first, and therefore around age 6 it is impossible to tell whether a child is an ENFP or ENTP for example, and the secondary function is developed second and so on.
remember that functions are only observable once theyve had a chance to develop a little, for example Fi starts with a blank slate because it's core function is to create inner "rules" based on moral judgement picked up over time, and empathise based on personal experience.
also it is much harder to observe noticeable development in introverted children since they tend to be far less expressive and exaggerated in childhood. even remembering yourself, it's not going to be possible to remember what you thought at age 3-5 which is probably what an introverted child would do more of, but it's possible to remember what you DID and ask people how you ACTED. observing extroverted children and remembering myself, i've noticed they tend to be very much more exaggerated and therefore easily typed, wheras introverted children give little away.

 

[niss]

I think we are born with the building blocks of our type. But a child's brain is ever changing as they learn and I think maybe the synapses haven't been fully created until later on.

For more information I encourage you to read this short article.
Making Connections: Helping Children Build Their Brains The Future in Our Hands


I should note that I do agree your type doesn't change, I just think you don't solidify your type at birth.

I agree. And thanks for the informative link.

 

[TreeBob]

I agree. And thanks for the informative link.

At least you read it. Seems the rest just ignored my point.

 

[Tridentus]

Huh.

Isn't one of the descriptors of ENFP being that they state things as facts, even if they don't actually know if they're facts?

This discussion has to do largely with developmental psychology- Not simply MBTI type.

Jung's cognitive function theory was a way used to diagnose neurotic disorders. So, tell me, can a child of 4 months even be aware of itself, let alone aware enough to develop such defense mechanisms or cognitive preferences?

Let's make assumptions about things we have no fucking clue about!

when did i say a baby acts out his type at 4 months old?

a baby isn't aware of much, true, but that point is pure bullshit since that has nothing to do with whether people are born with an innate preference for functions which develops as they get OLDER.

and did i not mention that this was included as part of myers briggs theory?

lets make assumptions about things people are doing we have no fucking clue about!!

although i don't say that personality types are definitely set at birth as stated in the theory, it's just that as far as i'm concerned the creator of the whole fucking thing is pretty much going to be the opinion which matters as far as debate goes, although obviously there is a chance she was wrong. although as far as i'm concerned my own personal opinion is that she wasn't and that it makes perfect sense based on self reflection, observing others, and purely from the theory fitting the way the whole theory works and making sense. and whilst it's possible to debate it, i doubt most people would if they knew it, since the whole fucking theory is observed by people on here based on faith and it fitting into their own lives nicely.

mbti theory isn't the be all and end all of cognitive development anyway, it's a very distinct and clear theory based on very distinct and clearly defined thought processes which can be used in different ways, and can create very different people, although they do tend to create patterns of similar behaviour/thought processes.
for example i have an ENFP friend, who whilst being very familiar on a lot of things, is a very different person- however if i lived EXACTLY the life he did i can see i would be very similar, simply because our functions would have developed in very similar ways. but only because we had those same function preferences to begin with.

so in fact this discussion is exactly to do with mbti type, and only covers as much of developmental psychology as mbti theory covers.

 

[Mephisto]

I would say that MBTI is everytihng but clearly defined.

You have so many interpretations, as you have people (maybe even animals, and aliens) that know of mbti.

 

[xezene]

Guys, I hate to break this to you, but...

MBTI does not exist. People aren't types. MBTI is like a more refined horoscope, or astrology. Yes, there are things I identify with, but anyone could identify with these things if they knew themselves thoroughly and were developed. We like MBTI because it is a way to meet people who see things like we see things, as a shortcut to actually taking all the time to figure this out on your own. It helps us make sense of the world.

With that said, please don't take it too seriously. You'll only end in disappointment, because, alas, MBTI types don't exist. Yes, people have different personalities. But I find it rather hard to believe people would be born with a man-made pigeon hole that doesn't exist in reality.

As a side note, believe it or not, people actually do change -- I can tell you this is so because of my learning in animal behaviour courses, & the huge mountain of evidence on its side. It's called neural plasticity, and it is worth looking into. Oh and, just keep in mind, neural plasticity was rejected and ignored when MBTI was developed, even though now we see that neural plasticity is correct and Briggs and Myers were wrong.

 

[nikkii]

My ENTP believes that we are born are mbti too but I'm think I'm starting to believe that too and then our environment effects are type.

 

[niss]

At least you read it. Seems the rest just ignored my point.

Really though, you never know how many read and don't comment. I read the link and thought it very good. In fact, it sparked a good discussion between my wife (K-6 education major) and me. There have been times that I read a link that someone posted and thought it to be good, but failed to say thanks. You just happened to catch me in one of my better moments.:blushed:

 

[IheartFootball10]

well who knows if we are really born into this. theres probably some truth to that. but , ive taken the MBTI test 4 times over about a 2-3 yr course and each time ive gotten ESTP. id venture to say we are born with some basic core traits. but over time im sure there are external factors that end up having an effect on our personalitties.