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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My old business model would never have had any marketing issues if I had been a big, fat, beer drinking guy.

It's not that I want a sex change or beer buddies, but I wonder If I should have tried having purple hair or something?

I don't believe purple hair would work in the conservative area I live in. But being a small framed (5'3 90lb) and not terribly extroverted ENTP, people project on to me that I'm ISFJ? (even if they don't have a technical label for it), and then get pissed when I'm not what they expected?

It's one thing when you have situations where people just need to get to know you, but what about managing first impressions, . . . . and accidentally attracting the kind of men who want to save the little fru fru . . . . .

Has anyone else found a tip or trick that says I'm not shy, and I don't care about being normal - without being counter-productively antagonistic or adopting some kind of over-kill bad ass persona?
 

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l relate to the expectations being completely opposed to what l am, but not so much the experience itself being 'hard'.

lt's weird because physically, l probably project something introverted or feelery and l've also never been one to want to adopt an extreme outer appearance, just not into it.

Then on the other hand, l will sometimes become very obviously extroverted-perceivery and outspoken which can be mistake for bossy, maybe it's an over compensation. l think it just happens naturally though.

l don't really view these issues directly through the gender lens, but sometimes l'd rather be a vague amorphous blob to dodge the expectations. Or a wizard.

l like @steffy's response, l'm similar...this is a delicate balance though where you have to make sure women don't think you're hitting on them.
 

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I usually just tell them. Nothing's worse than being mistaken for a rule-bound ISFJ in my opinion. Anyway, I try to charm them and be lighthearted as possible. I go for the women first, otherwise they might get the wrong impression. Usually, people like to talk about themselves so I ask lots of questions as well. Those are just a few things I do to appear less masculine and more approachable...
 

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I, as a male INFP, find ENTP females very attractive. I think showing that your an ENFP is pretty easy, just be provocative and turn everything a man says around. Since you are a quick-witted ENTP that shouldn't be problem. The smart guys u wanna attract will be attracted by this mental exercise, the dumb, control-freak, and uptight guys (cough *SJ's*) will be intimanated or shocked by your in your face approach. Answering your question: This will also give a very ENTP-ish first impression, so they'll know what their dealing with. Also I apologise for writing everything wrong, english is not my native language, blah blah blah, boring shit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
@Solaire of Astora I'm not one of those clever-funny-entertaining ENTP's. ? (BTW, no problem understanding you, thanks for your input) I've learned to ask lots of questions in ways that make other people feel comfortable, @steffy I know what you mean on that.

I suppose it's my nature to be a little bit "in-your-face" without even meaning it that way. Well, it works for me in business when the whole point is a problem solving thing. I'm quick when it comes to figuring things out and having good answers for a sales call or something like that, Or managing people (contractors, renters, suppliers, landlords ) while keeping things up-beat.

But socially I've learned how to just blend in, almost like I don't exist, using reflective listening techniques because otherwise I will just have people mad at me (with no point). This was okay for a long time because even though I would have a few financial bumps in the road, my work life was allowing me to work with ideas, which for me is like what it means to be alive. It balanced out.

With recent financial upheavals though, I had to start asking myself some hard questions. I faded out, or broke it off with the xso because I finally figured out how taxing it had been, like all I really remember is how much he kept trying to tell me not to be myself. It might even be that the main reason I kept seeing him was because it made marital status a non-issue for my work life. As long as my psychological needs were met with work, he was fine to have around in small doses.

For right now it would be okay with me not to date, the business won't make it the way it was into the "new economy", so I have enough survival issues on my plate.

But recently I was approached by someone, and hey I know, most women might occasionally have someone approach them that they are not interested in - oh well. But it is a certain type of guy, and I started thinking this is exactly the type of guy I have always (or mostly) dated. MY GOD, I'm a magnet for ISTJ, short, or shy men, what the hell am I going to do about this. ?

And then I thought about dying my hair purple.
but @OMG WTF BRO I'm not really into extremes just for shock value either.
 

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I've found if you are slightly obnoxious and outgoing/being yourself, people will test you. Just prove them wrong during this initial period.


People eventually get used to it, see you're here to say, and respect that you can run circles around them. Then you can tone it down a bit and people will just come to you/talk about you on their own.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
@Zippy BawBaw
I think there is some merit to what you are saying, just not sure how to apply it.

I don't have to care at all about relationships I have no intent of following up on. I don't believe I'm one of those women "who care too much" as far as SO past situations. ? I'm sure I think too much but,....?

What I do have to do is make some marketing decisions for work, that might have something to do with real life at the same time? The above scenario (prev. post) is combined with business coach advise I'm re-visiting. I did a barter a few years back to get some marketing coaching from someone highly recommended in my local business circles.

This coach wanted me to send a sappy letter (pre-worded) to some customers, asking them to tell me what they thought the most outstanding thing about me is/was. Not my product or service, me personally. I couldn't do it. At my age? It could sound like I was trying to hit on them. I literally couldn't afford awkwardness like that. But the other reason I couldn't do it was because I was pretty sure they would say something about my looks. Not because there is anything outstanding, particularly in contrast to women who make a living off their looks; but simply, if you are an average or large sized woman you can dress basic and nobody will care, it can be a non issue. If you are small it matters what you look like and you can't get away from that.

I learned to deal with wardrobe issues so I'm not worried about that exactly. But I got to thinking about how my product would have worked excellently with a kind of Ben & Jerry's image. If a guy did my job, no one would dream of classifying it as a hobby even if it is sometimes playful or casual. Even if some of my work sports a bad-ass look that insiders in my trade, graced me with telling me a job was "smokin" ... I'm still a girl. Being a girl I would get asked to do work, assumed that a girly girl would be good at. Its not that I cant do girly girly jobs, but focused marketing might be necessary for survival.

With social media being such a big part of marketing now, some good decisions in this area could be a big deal.
 

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I have a weird combination of not caring, arrogance, and being overly polite.
I'm petite as well, and I've found that if I smile while saying something rude or mean people don't get offended. So you don't seem "overkill bad-ass" but you aren't being passive. It doesn't work as perfectly as I like, and it still does suck to have people assume you're a little insecure girl who can't handle herself, but it's also sort of fun to be "Adorable but intimidating" as a friend of mine put it.
 

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Switch on your Ne like a boss and empower it so much that people feel like throwing up around you. Well, maybe not that much, but enough for them to feel that you are glimpsing in to their soul. If you are in paint class you have your canvas, they have theirs. Basically they are like oh hey, you should draw this, and you should draw that.. You are this, you are that, when you let your guard down, they frikken draw it for you, because they want to define you, not all people, but more then we'd like to believe. Many people are good at pretending they don't want you to be this way and were just inquiring, playing the innocent card, 6 months later they are shouting at you because you are not being who they want you to be, you are not a submissive person.

You follow what you believe. To find your meaning in life, and you have no interest in drawing for others, some people would love nothing more then to take control of your paint and lock you away inside the eyes of the painting which you didn't want. Be more how to say... Awake to the realities of what's happening around you and people will see you as a quiet bad ass, i'm short in height too, but people often feel like I'm reading their mind, but you have to be careful because not everyone likes to be read, and unfortunately our extravertive intuition is something that people cannot understand because it is not logical, but it is really fucking accurate some of the time, so you have to really empower your personality, rather then supress it, you have to show the World who you are, and when you do, it will be like a rainbow cannon blowing everyone away, until someone you find is strong enough to push through it all.

don't know if this helped, but if you do add it to your intuitive armory, i believe it is worth it.
 

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I see a lot of ENTP responses: "just slap 'em in the face!" But I think what you're looking to do is more to "be a successful business woman" while deterring unwanted attention.

My only suggestion is vague: keep reaching out (like this post) to find how others' deal with. Come up with a system which a) doesn't bother you so much, and b) won't bother others. The "system" would probably be one which you come up with a few things to say in this situation, or try to focus your body language one way, etc. Practice it (even if it's rehearsed lines) and go from there.

Good luck, I think women everywhere will be fighting this battle for at least another 50 to 100 years before society really lessens the expectations pushed on everyone. Sexism is the "last 'ism'" that will be resolved, in my opinion, if it ever will truly be "resolved" in the first place.
 

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I see a lot of ENTP responses: "just slap 'em in the face!" But I think what you're looking to do is more to "be a successful business woman" while deterring unwanted attention.

My only suggestion is vague: keep reaching out (like this post) to find how others' deal with. Come up with a system which a) doesn't bother you so much, and b) won't bother others. The "system" would probably be one which you come up with a few things to say in this situation, or try to focus your body language one way, etc. Practice it (even if it's rehearsed lines) and go from there.

Good luck, I think women everywhere will be fighting this battle for at least another 50 to 100 years before society really lessens the expectations pushed on everyone. Sexism is the "last 'ism'" that will be resolved, in my opinion, if it ever will truly be "resolved" in the first place.
This.

While l do have a similar ''F*ck you'' attitude, l think the reality is that a woman with an attitude like that isn't perceived the same way a man would be which is what the OP is emphasizing and you also seem to understand.

l don't even think some women realize that it doesn't quite transfer(or maybe they just don't care).

l really shouldn't even say it is a ''Fuck you'' attitude because it's not rebellious , per se, just meh...autonomous. You're immediately gauged as someone who is being oppositional though, directly because of your relation to the system.

Honestly, what was said above about being essentially sassy and ''turning around everything a man says'' is something l find reactive and tiresome, it's again, a response that is generated entirely as a reaction to the established '' man'' and you (us) as ''the woman''.

l could just as easily rot my brain reading Men Are From Mars(...) if l wanted to focus on gender politics.

So it really depends on the crowd, how that will be received. l can't say that l'm 100% authentic all the time, sometimes l do go for something that's more technically charming in the ''female'' way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Switch on your Ne like a boss and empower it so much that people feel like throwing up around you. Well, maybe not that much, but enough for them to feel that you are glimpsing in to their soul. If you are in paint class you have your canvas, they have theirs. Basically they are like oh hey, you should draw this, and you should draw that.. You are this, you are that, when you let your guard down, they frikken draw it for you, because they want to define you, not all people, but more then we'd like to believe. Many people are good at pretending they don't want you to be this way and were just inquiring, playing the innocent card, 6 months later they are shouting at you because you are not being who they want you to be, you are not a submissive person.

You follow what you believe. To find your meaning in life, and you have no interest in drawing for others, some people would love nothing more then to take control of your paint and lock you away inside the eyes of the painting which you didn't want. Be more how to say... Awake to the realities of what's happening around you and people will see you as a quiet bad ass, i'm short in height too, but people often feel like I'm reading their mind, but you have to be careful because not everyone likes to be read, and unfortunately our extravertive intuition is something that people cannot understand because it is not logical, but it is really fucking accurate some of the time, so you have to really empower your personality, rather then supress it, you have to show the World who you are, and when you do, it will be like a rainbow cannon blowing everyone away, until someone you find is strong enough to push through it all.

don't know if this helped, but if you do add it to your intuitive armory, i believe it is worth it.
With respect to the bold part, you have a point here. It's not someone else's fault that I formed a kind of ISFJ presentation or introduction mode. I chose it because it worked (past tense). I don't feel bad about getting older, because my identity from my own perspective, was not invested with a lot of weight given to cuteness or sex appeal (or not as some stand alone defining factor). But in some ways I got lulled or lazy?

An ISFJ presentational approach, will get you on good terms with the receptionist or gatekeeper.... it makes a sales manager feel good about giving you the inside track on the decision makers. Etc. This worked well when I was building something from nothing, and relied on face to face selling and cold calls I had to do myself.

BTW, we aren't talking about boob flashing, I'm more like a Dr Suess character, maybe I have a good hair flip and seem nice) BUT the beauty of it was that it was a Trojan Horse. Once inside a decision makers office, ask enough questions to accurately asses things, and then unleash the Ne! Pedal to the metal time. . . I'm higher than high,. . . . plus I get to walk out of the building with a deposit check. But I loved it because I was building my own thing, and I'd earned the right to spend the next couple days in my sweatsuit in front of the computer, or an afternoon at the bookstore while letting my ideas marinate.

This worked as long as I was hand picking my prospects. But it doesn't work as a marketing system. Add to that, that the consultant I was hoping could be the outsider sounding board like I am for my clients, was predisposed to expecting a different marketing problem than what I believed I was dealing with. I had what I thought was a unique product mix, that was hard to explain the value of without engaging in a dialog with the prospect (and definitely not a good product for phone sales). Social media and a lot of options are available today, but I felt overwhelmed at the time and welcomed an outsider viewpoint.

One big trend or wave has been the idea that "better mousetrap" no longer exists. But I'd reached the point where there were a few good prospects tracking me down because I offered a solution that they saw working for someone else! Still the popular marketing trend was that people need to buy from you because they like you. My consultant was used to people needing to differentiate their product based on personality. I found that disturbing.

And the first wake up call came, when a retired teacher I met and thought might be interesting, asked for laundry advice over dinner. I could be reading into that but combined with a few other recent occurrences .... Hmmm

@sighcantthinkofaname you have a good point about how there needs to be a dichotomy or a kind of give and take. Just like ISTJ's I've known have a downside of being small minded or uptight, they do things for you and then you know they mean well. This may be something most of us figgure out for ourselves in highschool? But then again, I think you can have a combination of things that were working in your life up untill something changes -and you have to re-work all the pieces of the puzzle?

From reading your other posts or threads I can imagine how your strategy fits you well, adorable but intimidating, smile while saying something mean, I love it.

My dichotomy needs to be something like "I know the rules, but letter of the law obedience is for wussys. ?
 

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This.

While l do have a similar ''F*ck you'' attitude, l think the reality is that a woman with an attitude like that isn't perceived the same way a man would be which is what the OP is emphasizing and you also seem to understand.

l don't even think some women realize that it doesn't quite transfer(or maybe they just don't care).

l really shouldn't even say it is a ''Fuck you'' attitude because it's not rebellious , per se, just meh...autonomous. You're immediately gauged as someone who is being oppositional though, directly because of your relation to the system.

Honestly, what was said above about being essentially sassy and ''turning around everything a man says'' is something l find reactive and tiresome, it's again, a response that is generated entirely as a reaction to the established '' man'' and you (us) as ''the woman''.

l could just as easily rot my brain reading Men Are From Mars(...) if l wanted to focus on gender politics.

So it really depends on the crowd, how that will be received. l can't say that l'm 100% authentic all the time, sometimes l do go for something that's more technically charming in the ''female'' way.
I really relate to this (especially the nuance between rebellious vs autonomous), and it's taking me some time to work out for myself. I'm coming out of a long stretch where I had developed more the "female charm" approach in life, but now that I'm stretching it and chipping away at it, I'm seeing different responses from people (esp men) and have to regauge how to be when, whether it is the way it "should" be or not.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
@Revenant yes, I would think this is an issue for women, and not just ones that are of my age group.
Today, we not only need to not attract the unwanted attention, but I'm wondering if social media and media marketing has blurred the lines into all kinds of flavors and we have to pick what flavor we want to be.

No sex appeal at all can backfire on you, looking inappropriate for your age can be pathetic. Worrying about looking appropriate can come across as uptight. Does everyone think any publicity is better than none? I had a customer, my age or a little older who sort of presents herself like a very horny old lady. But you know what? She might have the bulldozer confidence to pull it off.
Bulldozer in a small package is just a bitchy Chihuahua, but a person could market that?

There is a red haired woman writer, with tattoos, who is marketing herself as exactly that, and it works, or at least it is working for a while.

@OMG WTF BRO it seems like waaaaayyyy to many men out there have read the mars- venus books? Now they deserve a slap.
 

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I really relate to this (especially the nuance between rebellious vs autonomous), and it's taking me some time to work out for myself. I'm coming out of a long stretch where I had developed more the "female charm" approach in life, but now that I'm stretching it and chipping away at it, I'm seeing different responses from people (esp men) and have to regauge how to be when, whether it is the way it "should" be or not.
Yeah, l think it's not just wrongly being pegged as a ''bad girl'' but what that also implies, unwanted attention like he mentioned.

There's a shaky area with things like sex, and l'll intentionally become more prudish around some people because to them a woman expressing a normal interest in sex is magnified 10x , you just can't really discus it.

Since l know l'm not going to stick with any kind if ideology or necessarily ''fight'' constant battles in my own life, l've never been one to become too concerned with the differences...l don't really see changing my behavior in some instances as something that's too difficult for me to do.
 
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