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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I don't know if this happens to you but it happens to me and I'm wondering if you can relate.

This happens to me sometimes where I'll be part of a group or team and kind of energetically take over the whole damn thing. I ask the questions, I guide the thinking, and I lay out the directions and plan. If people voice opinions, I'll usually be the one that jumps in and asks them a series of questions to assess whether it's something to include in our action plan or not. In a way, I take over like 80% of the conversational real-estate.

I notice when I do this though, everyone else kind of just gets quiet and recedes into their shells. I've also noticed people in these scenarios can kind of lose their own personas and just become puppets asking me every little step of the way what they should do. I really appreciate when people can meet me with the same intensity and banter back and forth with me and be responsible for their portion whatever it is, but more often than not it almost feels like I just lay flat the bowling pins. It's a problem because the group doesn't work to its full potential if everyone is only a shell of themselves.

I'm learning over time to kind of bite my tongue and hold back. Ideally, the group or team is an open forum with critical discussion that comes to an undeniable consensus from the topics of discussion and course of action is clear. It really irks me when people kind of dilly dally and don't really know where to go or what to do. I admit, maybe I'm not communicating the vision well enough or perhaps I am but people don't agree. I still expect them to. It's kind of arrogant I guess.
 

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I feel like shit when that happens. It's no business meeting, but it's more the fact when the people in my group could use more practice at the material than I do, but they're also not as motivated to work on it. College kids are weird. I want to help them, I don't want to push it on them when my grade relies on getting the job done. It's why I generally prefer to work alone unless the people are willing to work, and if I'm allowed to look over their work.
 

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I don't know if this happens to you but it happens to me and I'm wondering if you can relate.

This happens to me sometimes where I'll be part of a group or team and kind of energetically take over the whole damn thing. I ask the questions, I guide the thinking, and I lay out the directions and plan. If people voice opinions, I'll usually be the one that jumps in and asks them a series of questions to assess whether it's something to include in our action plan or not. In a way, I take over like 80% of the conversational real-estate.

I notice when I do this though, everyone else kind of just gets quiet and recedes into their shells. I've also noticed people in these scenarios can kind of lose their own personas and just become puppets asking me every little step of the way what they should do. I really appreciate when people can meet me with the same intensity and banter back and forth with me and be responsible for their portion whatever it is, but more often than not it almost feels like I just lay flat the bowling pins. It's a problem because the group doesn't work to its full potential if everyone is only a shell of themselves.

I'm learning over time to kind of bite my tongue and hold back. Ideally, the group or team is an open forum with critical discussion that comes to an undeniable consensus from the topics of discussion and course of action is clear. It really irks me when people kind of dilly dally and don't really know where to go or what to do. I admit, maybe I'm not communicating the vision well enough or perhaps I am but people don't agree. I still expect them to. It's kind of arrogant I guess.
For this very reason, i don't work in groups anymore. In grad school, when I have been required to work in groups, I picked a topic for which it would be easy for me to do all the work. Luckily for me, I didn't need to.

It's a tough thing. I've found the same problem with martial arts. Ever since wrestling, I've been trying to find that same intensity, but I don't generally find it anywhere. So I find arts that let me train on my own. When I find a place to train, I raise the bar until I get bored, then I leave.

When I'm required to be in a group, I generally try not to lead, because it usually doesn't end well. I try to defer to someone else for as long as possible, but I end up doing the stuff that needs to be done, regardless of whether I get permission. I try to take the big picture--if I'm in a group, that means I need something from it. So I do what I need to do to make sure I get what I need from the group. If the leadership falls apart, I do my best to prop it up, because I generally leave as soon as I get what I need. But to do that, I need someone else in charge. At least in name.

I've been told that I'm not a joiner. I guess that's what they mean.

As I'm writing this, I'm amazed at how much of an a$$hole I am. It must be horrible to be my boss...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
It's a tough thing. I've found the same problem with martial arts. Ever since wrestling, I've been trying to find that same intensity, but I don't generally find it anywhere. So I find arts that let me train on my own. When I find a place to train, I raise the bar until I get bored, then I leave.
Short aside but wrestling was me all throughout grade school since age 11. I loved the sport, everything about it. I never felt more alive than those moments of peace and silence just before an intense match. All the training, blood and sweat, taking shit from my coach, all the pain, it was all about that coming moment. Looking at my competitor with the entirety of my soul and thinking of absolutely nothing else in that moment other than how I would take him down.

You never know what someone is made of until you fight them. There is no room for dishonesty, deceit, hiding. Everything that person is is right there before you and same goes for you. It's a true test of wills, and I love it. I would give those short few minutes everything I had, every last ounce of strength and ferocity I possessed.

I rarely lost, but when I did, I would take it out on my training. I would train furiously with anger. I was ruthless in practice. It earned me a spot as captain and MVP. Outside of the ring and outside of practice I felt accomplished. I would walk around with zero interest in proving myself to others, in acting tough. I knew I was a badass, so did everyone else, and that was that. Good times. I miss those days. Nothing afterwards really added up to it. I've kind of been looking for that same intensity of competition ever since but haven't been able to find it. I'm hoping in the business world I will.
 

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I don't know if this happens to you but it happens to me and I'm wondering if you can relate.

This happens to me sometimes where I'll be part of a group or team and kind of energetically take over the whole damn thing. I ask the questions, I guide the thinking, and I lay out the directions and plan. If people voice opinions, I'll usually be the one that jumps in and asks them a series of questions to assess whether it's something to include in our action plan or not. In a way, I take over like 80% of the conversational real-estate.

I notice when I do this though, everyone else kind of just gets quiet and recedes into their shells. I've also noticed people in these scenarios can kind of lose their own personas and just become puppets asking me every little step of the way what they should do. I really appreciate when people can meet me with the same intensity and banter back and forth with me and be responsible for their portion whatever it is, but more often than not it almost feels like I just lay flat the bowling pins. It's a problem because the group doesn't work to its full potential if everyone is only a shell of themselves.

I'm learning over time to kind of bite my tongue and hold back. Ideally, the group or team is an open forum with critical discussion that comes to an undeniable consensus from the topics of discussion and course of action is clear. It really irks me when people kind of dilly dally and don't really know where to go or what to do. I admit, maybe I'm not communicating the vision well enough or perhaps I am but people don't agree. I still expect them to. It's kind of arrogant I guess.
how old are you and whats yoru instinctual variant?

estp/8w9/so/sx here.... these paragraphs hit on several levels. let me explain:

after my course this weekend, i smoke some weed before i got on my flight home tonight and had a nice lil revelation. i dont want power for myself. i want power for my tribe... my people. the more people i have influence over, the more power i have. the needs of the many are greater than the needs of the few, or the one. (spock)

i think my light is to have power in the form of social influence. i want to control the group. now i just have to figure out how im going to go about doing that, and where.

as an ESTP, i use my extroveted sensing to read the group dynamics and shift power as it is needed, to eventually turn it in my favor. its why some ex girlfriends have said i 'invade'... its not domination physically, its socially. i *make* people fucking love me. i have used this function to do exactly what you're going through right now.

my hard times the past couple years is because i switched tribes, and found i had zero power over the new one. bunch of intuitive feelers didnt speak the same language as me, so i couldnt empower them. they only valued subjective morals/emotions.... i never got it and was rejected as leader basically, in favor of following whoever was the most offended/upset at the time. fucking pathetic.

anyway, learn to work the crowd better. thats a primary reason ive been so into enneagram/cogs/etc... they wont even know what hit em.
 

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@Temizzle

Hahaha, that actually gave me a good laugh. I've had that happen to me in the past. I can completely bowl people over if I'm on a mission, especially if the people around me are introverted.

I remember watching a training video years ago where they talked about this. Oftentimes in groups, someone who is outspoken and "leads" the conversation can come off combative when another person suggests an idea and the outspoken person then engages in a public, verbal dialogue to assess the idea's worth. Even if it's just meant as a way to feel out an idea, the other person feels personally attacked or humiliated and stops contributing.

I can't quite recall the solution, but it involved re-framing the dialogue so it doesn't feel like a gladiator match.

I don't really have this issue at the moment, but I haven't done a group project in awhile. Most of my current collaboration is one-on-one or via email.



Since I was young, though, I've always preferred to be second-in-command. I never run for president, always vice-president. I want the ability to influence the direction of things without the responsibility or spotlight. In general group settings, I don't take control unless people act ridiculously incompetent.

That said, I make an excellent vice-president.


EDIT:

Side note to @nablur

I have a lot of respect for people who can influence crowds by their sheer magnetism. I've got a couple family members with that kind of charm/energy, and it's fascinating to watch. It's one of the less common skills I see in people.

Personally, my biggest crowd-oriented talent lies in information gathering. I can come out of a social event with a staggering amount of personal information on others. I'm also good at getting this information without giving out any myself.

Actually (excuse my sudden talkative nature), I had this happen tonight. I took my coworker out for a drink to thank them for their hard work and kept the conversation on them for 95 percent of the time (I've learned to add a few things on my side so the conversation feels more natural and less overtly controlled). The funny thing is at one point the conversation turned to conversation roles and my coworker talked about how she is usually the listener in her relationships, rarely the talker. She then suggested I probably have the same role in my relationships.

Anyways, I always find the power dynamics between people through language and personality interesting.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
how old are you and whats yoru instinctual variant?

estp/8w9/so/sx here.... these paragraphs hit on several levels. let me explain:

after my course this weekend, i smoke some weed before i got on my flight home tonight and had a nice lil revelation. i dont want power for myself. i want power for my tribe... my people. the more people i have influence over, the more power i have. the needs of the many are greater than the needs of the few, or the one. (spock)

i think my light is to have power in the form of social influence. i want to control the group. now i just have to figure out how im going to go about doing that, and where.

as an ESTP, i use my extroveted sensing to read the group dynamics and shift power as it is needed, to eventually turn it in my favor. its why some ex girlfriends have said i 'invade'... its not domination physically, its socially. i *make* people fucking love me. i have used this function to do exactly what you're going through right now.

my hard times the past couple years is because i switched tribes, and found i had zero power over the new one. bunch of intuitive feelers didnt speak the same language as me, so i couldnt empower them. they only valued subjective morals/emotions.... i never got it and was rejected as leader basically, in favor of following whoever was the most offended/upset at the time. fucking pathetic.

anyway, learn to work the crowd better. thats a primary reason ive been so into enneagram/cogs/etc... they wont even know what hit em.
The bit on intuitive feelers I get. Our fraternity was run this way with an INFJ 3 figure head who wore fake gucci clothes, took any form of criticism to heart, and was master at manipulating others and talking behind people's backs -- everything about appearances and emotional displays. Somehow, it worked. They didn't like it when I confronted things head on, when I pushed for positive change. Decided it was a stupid waste of time, walked away from it onto better things. It got shut down after I left. I pity them in retrospect.

I'm a 24yo sx/so. I may prop myself up socially but it's so that I feel empowered for my 1 on 1s. I want to be able to open doors and make things happen for those closest to me. I want to lift them up and make their worlds. I seek for impact -- even if I make enemies, they will know I was there for sure. I don't think it's healthy. I'm a romantic at heart but I think it's too much focus on one person. Most people I've dated have gone crazy for me, but somehow nobody has satisfied what I'm looking for yet. I feel like I go for people where I will be in power in the relationship but what I'm seeking for truly is an equal, someone that will stand up to me like I will to them that threatens my dominance. I don't like to close those doors I like to keep tabs periodically on the people that have been in my life to check in. I like to think they are lifetime acquaintances because of the impact I have left on them and they on me.

Deep down my life vision is to steer away from this, to find a partner that matches me and put the relationship stuff aside and focus on building a community of people that are likeminded and working towards a common vision. I do want to learn to better get along in group settings because this is my goal. I want to have the social impact. I don't need to be at the top like you do, but I want to be a part of and help create a community like this.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
@TemizzleI remember watching a training video years ago where they talked about this. Oftentimes in groups, someone who is outspoken and "leads" the conversation can come off combative when another person suggests an idea and the outspoken person then engages in a public, verbal dialogue to assess the idea's worth. Even if it's just meant as a way to feel out an idea, the other person feels personally attacked or humiliated and stops contributing.
Yes this bit is exactly it. I think I read somewhere that there is value in just letting go and letting things run their natural course. That you don't always have to press and often times things will work out the way they should in the end anyway.

Hard for me to wrap my head around it but I'm trying to.
 

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Yes this bit is exactly it. I think I read somewhere that there is value in just letting go and letting things run their natural course. That you don't always have to press and often times things will work out the way they should in the end anyway.

Hard for me to wrap my head around it but I'm trying to.
Maybe someone can let things run their course, but if I've decided to step up and handle something, it's definitely not going to be me.

Personally, I prefer to get what I want, even if I have to use more diplomatic means to get it. I just see it as a challenge; if the usual combination won't open the safe, try other ways until that door pops open. There's a good intellectual game in trying to find what works (although too much of it makes me lose my patience).
 

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Yes this bit is exactly it. I think I read somewhere that there is value in just letting go and letting things run their natural course. That you don't always have to press and often times things will work out the way they should in the end anyway.

Hard for me to wrap my head around it but I'm trying to.
As a fellow wrestler, I have found that nothing matches the intensity of wrestling. But I have found that having multiple outlets for my intensity has helped me be more patient.

I noticed from experience that if I waited, some problems resolved themselves. That left two problems--knowing which problems resolve themselves, and finding a way to keep myself busy until they resolve themselves. I work out 5-6 days a week, because I get some of the intensity, but it also forces me to schedule my day. I need to put things off so that I get my workout in, and I get more efficient when I am doing things. Plus, I still like to feel like a badass...

10 years in financial services also taught me how to mend broken relationships. If I can fix it, I'm more comfortable breaking it. It has also helped me learn to gauge how badly I can break a relationship and still mend it. Because I'm pretty sure I'm going to break something pretty quickly.

I have also learned the power of the nudge. Doing taijiquan for 13 years has helped me learn to "guide" things along to make them go a little faster, when it's moving too slow for my taste. Everything unfolds at it's own pace, but sometimes I can "encourage" it to unfold a little faster...hopefully without breaking it. And if I do, I'll just fix it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
As a fellow wrestler, I have found that nothing matches the intensity of wrestling. But I have found that having multiple outlets for my intensity has helped me be more patient.

I noticed from experience that if I waited, some problems resolved themselves. That left two problems--knowing which problems resolve themselves, and finding a way to keep myself busy until they resolve themselves. I work out 5-6 days a week, because I get some of the intensity, but it also forces me to schedule my day. I need to put things off so that I get my workout in, and I get more efficient when I am doing things. Plus, I still like to feel like a badass...

10 years in financial services also taught me how to mend broken relationships. If I can fix it, I'm more comfortable breaking it. It has also helped me learn to gauge how badly I can break a relationship and still mend it. Because I'm pretty sure I'm going to break something pretty quickly.

I have also learned the power of the nudge. Doing taijiquan for 13 years has helped me learn to "guide" things along to make them go a little faster, when it's moving too slow for my taste. Everything unfolds at it's own pace, but sometimes I can "encourage" it to unfold a little faster...hopefully without breaking it. And if I do, I'll just fix it.
Nice. Viewing things as a boat on a river. It has a flow, may need some gentle adjusting here and there. Sometimes needs a crash course flip, but for the most part it's heading where you want to go.

Rather than a dead car that needs to be pushed somewhere.. ahahaha. This is good stuff thank you for contributing.
 

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Personally, my biggest crowd-oriented talent lies in information gathering. I can come out of a social event with a staggering amount of personal information on others. I'm also good at getting this information without giving out any myself.
yes, 100% people just open wide the fuck up to me. its great because it lets me know they trust in me and my power.... on the other hand, some people tend to keep taking a piece of that power without giving any back... and without the reciprocation, it can be exhausting.

people forget that i want to talk about myself too sometimes, but i only do it if asked direct questions or if something comes up in a story im telling.
 

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The River.

https://drmiller100.wordpress.com/2015/08/18/the-river/


I'm 6'2, 275 pounds. I'm told I look bigger than that in real life. I can have a TON of personal energy when I light up. I can turn it down when I want and be quieter and watch and listen.

I was captain of a Search and Rescue unit in one of the most remote places in the 48 states. We found lost people, we were a great unit. Ultimately I was fired by the Sheriff for politics. I'm not good at politics or ass kissing.

I was a professor for a while at a night school. I loved watching single mothers working full time jobs EARN a degree, and the self confidence, and the skills, and the piece of paper to change their world. That was pretty cool, and in that way I changed the world a bit.
I hate "team work" unless the team is doing the work I'm "leading" from the side. In a bad situation, I will take control, unless someone else is more qualified. I've been first on scene at car crashes a number of time, and take control until EMT or a cop gets there. Sometimes the cop lets me keep on rolling until the EMT's get there.

Sx is all about squeezing the juice out of life. I could give a fuck about the social shit. I don't like groups, clubs hate me. I will absolutely protect the weak and encourage those who are TRYING.

And I've had to figure out what I can control, what I can't control, and what I don't want to control. I no longer have any desire to control anyone else. That was a tough lesson to learn.
 

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I was captain of a Search and Rescue unit in one of the most remote places in the 48 states. We found lost people, we were a great unit.
Side note, but this is actually on my list of things to do. But it seems be a volunteer role in many locations. How were you able to do that and make a monthly income (or were you in a paid role)?
 

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I was captain of a Search and Rescue unit in one of the most remote places in the 48 states. We found lost people, we were a great unit. Ultimately I was fired by the Sheriff for politics. I'm not good at politics or ass kissing.
Ironically, I feel like this is what I do with clients as a therapist-in-training. I work with severely mentally ill folks, and many of them just seem lost, and it feels like my job to go and find them...or at least help them figure out where they are, and how they got there...

And I, too, hate the politics...
 

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Side note, but this is actually on my list of things to do. But it seems be a volunteer role in many locations. How were you able to do that and make a monthly income (or were you in a paid role)?
totally volunteer. averaged a call every 2 or 3 months. I had a landscape company, and just told my foreman to make it happen.

Most employers were pretty agreeable about letting people miss work for search and rescue.
 

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Yes and no?
It's very situational. I usually prefer to work alone if given a chance unless I'm being medicated for ADHD. Other people can distract or derail me very easily.
If I'm in a work related situation I prefer to let others take charge and manoeuvre myself into a semi important role unless people are incompetent. I'm mostly concerned about having clout if push comes to shove.

Online I just rant.

In person I'm very ranty one on one unless medicated so unless I'm with my partner I err on the side of being quiet (which usually serves to moderate myself enough).

I tend to leave myself out of conversations as much as I can simply because I'm aware my background is an alienating factor in my social strata. Online I'm open about it since its not as big a deal.
In discussions I used to be shouty and like you Temizzle until I started moderating myself.

But one interesting thing does happen to me. Because I tend to be quiet in social situations I've noticed there's two different kinds of quiet.
1) Is the usual kind, where I feel my energy is pulled back. I notice that I tend to become very submissive in my body language as well, more stereotypically feminine I gused?
2) Is far more interesting. I somehow just assert a gravitational pull. I don't force people into their shells but they instead volunteer information. It happens usually in groups and it's amazing when it does. It's like they're vying for my attention. I can give an example.
I was out one night with a society from my college and some of us ended up at a bar later.
We ended up talking about our families and people were facing me and addressed me mainly.
One dude kept trying to cut other people off and I just asked others about their perspectives and the atmosphere got notably warmer because of that.
I did sit at the head of the table though? I wonder how much that had to do with it.

Unfortunately I'm not really in control yet of which comes out when. I'd ideally like to have control over both since they could both be incredibly useful but it seems to be really mood dependent.
I know I can be a weirdly compelling person when I turn it on but I'm still trying to figure out the how of it.

Edit: I can be pretty loud and boisterous (stereotypical eight)but it has to be a discussion I'm very interested in these days.
 

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@Hellfire

Good post. A lot of that makes sense. Thanks for adding.
 
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Yeah. I hate it because when I talk too much I feel like I’ve been too expressive and offered too much information. Realizing my embarassing mistake I quickly shut down conversation.

Everyone assures me that I am still quite reserved and the idea that I imagined myself to be emotional is apparently laughable.

I dunno, I still don’t like it.
 
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