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Discussion Starter #41
Look I'm not talking about standard text book, eliminate incorrect answers logic. I'm talking more along the lines of reason, causal effect relationships. The emotional mind predicts things, interprets things, gives connections and meaning to things. However it has a definite lack of an ability to check if it's explanations are correct or not. That is where reason comes in, it's the part that goes no this won't work this won't work but this one might. Emotions are built around assumptions about the world, that get modified as we live by reason, or by the subconscious mind drawing a connection between two things. An example would be, a black person once pulled a gun on me that threatened my life black people are bad. From a basic standpoint this is correct in the sense that it might alert you to be conscious of a certain group of people that you have had difficulty with in the past. It also over generalizes, assumes black is connected with violence and thus fear. It's a more negative example but an example none the less. The rational mind will evaluate it's accuracy, and look for inconsistencies. You, use your emotions to understand the world, and your reason for ways in which you are wrong. Thus emotion opperates on a set of rules, and reason. It's own logic if you will, it's at times inaccurate but in general effective, that is where reason comes in, it comes up with all of the ways in which you are wrong.



Yes a poem is a use of the english language through words which you earlier stated was not very good at communicating emotion. Conveying an emotion, does not mean getting across the information that emotion was trying to convey to you. You can make someone feel sad the key to that is can you make them understand why you feel sad. That is where knowing the inns and outs of yourself through rational observation and continued questioning plays a vital role. Anyone can make a sad song, artists can make a song that says I'm sad and this is why.



I attack everything from a different paradigm because I in fact have a broken head.:laughing: But yeah most debates tend to be based on people looking at something with vastly different experience bases. As well as having vastly different definitions of what is what.
Ok about the last thing you just said...because this is very important. I can sense we both have very different biases and definitions of what is what. To be honest I don't know what your talking about because your definition of things....and the way in which you have connected your dots....are not how I have connected my dots for the most part. I will try and explain my basic paradigm before talking about this sort of thing.

I see things like this.....(this will not be perfect obviously)

whew....here goes


...damn this is gonna be hard


INFP= Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se Ti

K. So this is me in a very simplistic form. I make judgments based on my Fi or introverted feelings. Feeling and Thinking are the two judgement functions based on the MBTI system. I tend to use feelings more...but in the past year I have explore Te and Ti in depth.

My next function is Ne. This is how I perceive the world around me...through extroverted intuition. I see things and connect dots...kind of like a web chart....or a bracket system.

Now...when you tell me that I need to understand my feelings through logic....and that feelings are based on logic....this makes no sense to me based on the dots I have connected.

Feelings or logic makes sense of your intuition or senses. N and S are perceiving functions. T and F are judging functions. So.....understand your F through your T? That makes no sense in my paradigm. Therefore I am confused.

I think what your saying is....( I could be COMPLETELY wrong but this is my guess) ....that.....in our cognitive functions.....Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se.....we should use our inferior Te to make sense of our Fi. ....maybe

Hopefully that cleared at least some of the misunderstanding up.
 

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Ok about the last thing you just said...because this is very important. I can sense we both have very different biases and definitions of what is what. To be honest I don't know what your talking about because your definition of things....and the way in which you have connected your dots....are not how I have connected my dots for the most part. I will try and explain my basic paradigm before talking about this sort of thing.

I see things like this.....(this will not be perfect obviously)

whew....here goes


...damn this is gonna be hard


INFP= Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se Ti

K. So this is me in a very simplistic form. I make judgments based on my Fi or introverted feelings. Feeling and Thinking are the two judgement functions based on the MBTI system. I tend to use feelings more...but in the past year I have explore Te and Ti in depth.

My next function is Ne. This is how I perceive the world around me...through extroverted intuition. I see things and connect dots...kind of like a web chart....or a bracket system.

Now...when you tell me that I need to understand my feelings through logic....and that feelings are based on logic....this makes no sense to me based on the dots I have connected.

Feelings or logic makes sense of your intuition or senses. N and S are perceiving functions. T and F are judging functions. So.....understand your F through your T? That makes no sense in my paradigm. Therefore I am confused.

I think what your saying is....( I could be COMPLETELY wrong but this is my guess) ....that.....in our cognitive functions.....Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se.....we should use our inferior Te to make sense of our Fi. ....maybe

Hopefully that cleared at least some of the misunderstanding up.
It actually did my comments are not based on MBTI or it's definition of thinking and feeling, (feeling is just another type of thinking so the labels are inaccurate, misleading and foolish.) my definitions are based on articles and books on the topic of cognitive science I have read. As well as a life time, of trying to understand people, and the world. Both in an intensive quest to in some way understand myself and conquer whatever demons remain in me to be the type of person I want to be. I think that making a decision based sole on emotion is a truly bad way to make decisions. I also think that no decision is ever made using thinking. Thinking only disqualifies options it does not produce them. (One of the reasons feelers are so much more positive about things and people. They create stuff, and often get cynical and set in their ways when someone says that it isn't of merit. They often then become thinkers or alienate themselves from criticism, with an attitude of you can't say my feelings aren't right because you can't truly prove anythings not right.) Feeling and the subconscious are interlinked, they create things, (By create I in no way mean actually create from nothingness I mean re-shape.) give explanations and connect the dots. Reason points out when something is wrong, that's the conscious' gift to humanity. I identify myself as INFP not because the tests tell me so, it's because I relate holy and completely in my core values and beliefs with what is important to them. My interest in people makes me an INFP, my obsession with mastering myself, questioning myself, and treating the world with an even minded compassion. The INFP is the epitome of a person who seeks honor in their person and does their best in the world for every one they can. I was born an INFP, I grew up an INFP, I adapted to life. Now I always, and I mean always make sure to see if whatever crazy crap my brain comes up with is thoroughly tested by reason. I think everyone else should as well, in order to allow their creativity to take it's full and ultimate shape.

One is crippled without the other, emotion and reason. Emotionless reason is what a computer or robot can do perfectly. That's the one end of the scale, the other is the religious zealot, the madman, the fool, the child that refuses to grow up. One does nothing but eliminate possibilities, the other does nothing but make connections. Everything can be connected, in a million different ways, it's reasons job to eliminate the connections that do us no good. That do not stand up to the rules of the world we live in, that is how I define each. The only truly optimized members of society are the ones who realize this. It's a process of trying to gain the best of both world's. A truly rational person is never truly right because they never venture anything only tear down. They never ever prove themselves right only prove that others are wrong.

The truly enlightened know next to nothing because they know that nearly all things can be dis proven. It's the ability to leap from that understanding to the idea that somethings should be believed to be true, because if they are not they will physically hurt us, and if they are not true it makes no difference. (And recognise which these are based on the world we live in.) That I think makes one truly in touch with both sides, and allows both sides to flourish most prevalently. I think that people who Identify themselves as feelers, need to at least be familiar with this process, that just because it can be right doesn't mean it is. We need people to say yeah you're wrong, here's why. Then we need to consciously detach ourselves from what we have done in order to evaluate whether what has been said is in fact true.

I think that's where feelers get themselves bit in the ass, instead of going yeah but how about if I changed this around, they go. No! that's not true and I find it insulting that you said what I have made is in no way useful. By extension calling me useless, no they are saying that is incorrect under these conditions please try again or notify me of conditions being met. (Whether they realize it or not, even if half the time they don't.) I think that about sums things up.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
It actually did my comments are not based on MBTI or it's definition of thinking and feeling, (feeling is just another type of thinking so the labels are inaccurate, misleading and foolish.) my definitions are based on articles and books on the topic of cognitive science I have read. As well as a life time, of trying to understand people, and the world. Both in an intensive quest to in some way understand myself and conquer whatever demons remain in me to be the type of person I want to be. I think that making a decision based sole on emotion is a truly bad way to make decisions. I also think that no decision is ever made using thinking. Thinking only disqualifies options it does not produce them. (One of the reasons feelers are so much more positive about things and people. They create stuff, and often get cynical and set in their ways when someone says that it isn't of merit. They often then become thinkers or alienate themselves from criticism, with an attitude of you can't say my feelings aren't right because you can't truly prove anythings not right.) Feeling and the subconscious are interlinked, they create things, (By create I in no way mean actually create from nothingness I mean re-shape.) give explanations and connect the dots. Reason points out when something is wrong, that's the conscious' gift to humanity. I identify myself as INFP not because the tests tell me so, it's because I relate holy and completely in my core values and beliefs with what is important to them. My interest in people makes me an INFP, my obsession with mastering myself, questioning myself, and treating the world with an even minded compassion. The INFP is the epitome of a person who seeks honor in their person and does their best in the world for every one they can. I was born an INFP, I grew up an INFP, I adapted to life. Now I always, and I mean always make sure to see if whatever crazy crap my brain comes up with is thoroughly tested by reason. I think everyone else should as well, in order to allow their creativity to take it's full and ultimate shape.

One is crippled without the other, emotion and reason. Emotionless reason is what a computer or robot can do perfectly. That's the one end of the scale, the other is the religious zealot, the madman, the fool, the child that refuses to grow up. One does nothing but eliminate possibilities, the other does nothing but make connections. Everything can be connected, in a million different ways, it's reasons job to eliminate the connections that do us no good. That do not stand up to the rules of the world we live in, that is how I define each. The only truly optimized members of society are the ones who realize this. It's a process of trying to gain the best of both world's. A truly rational person is never truly right because they never venture anything only tear down. They never ever prove themselves right only prove that others are wrong.

The truly enlightened know next to nothing because they know that nearly all things can be dis proven. It's the ability to leap from that understanding to the idea that somethings should be believed to be true, because if they are not they will physically hurt us, and if they are not true it makes no difference. (And recognise which these are based on the world we live in.) That I think makes one truly in touch with both sides, and allows both sides to flourish most prevalently. I think that people who Identify themselves as feelers, need to at least be familiar with this process, that just because it can be right doesn't mean it is. We need people to say yeah you're wrong, here's why. Then we need to consciously detach ourselves from what we have done in order to evaluate whether what has been said is in fact true.

I think that's where feelers get themselves bit in the ass, instead of going yeah but how about if I changed this around, they go. No! that's not true and I find it insulting that you said what I have made is in no way useful. By extension calling me useless, no they are saying that is incorrect under these conditions please try again or notify me of conditions being met. (Whether they realize it or not, even if half the time they don't.) I think that about sums things up.
We have the same idea going, only different ways of explaining it. Which I am fine with :)
 

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We have the same idea going, only different ways of explaining it. Which I am fine with :)
Which in all honesty it's fairly apparent, when considering the fact that we have been arguing for this long and actually trying to understand and learn from what the other has said. I have a very prove it attitude, because i expect the same. Protecting a persons emotions at the expense of the truth is unhealthy and dangerous. I thank you for questioning what I had to say instead of denying it outright, and wish their where more people like you.
 

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Heh. I don't know what's going on with the congruent functions, but look at mine: Ne>Ni>Fi>Ti>Si>Fe>Se>Te. Like, is that normal for an INFP?

As for letting it all out... Hmm... I'm really tired and I should be in bed.
I wish she knew I existed. And I don't want to go to school tomorrow.

Yeah, not much to say.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Which in all honesty it's fairly apparent, when considering the fact that we have been arguing for this long and actually trying to understand and learn from what the other has said. I have a very prove it attitude, because i expect the same. Protecting a persons emotions at the expense of the truth is unhealthy and dangerous. I thank you for questioning what I had to say instead of denying it outright, and wish their where more people like you.
Well thankya sir. Ditto :p
 

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As an INTP, I'm pissed I sometimes withhold certain information and insights because I KNOW they will be interpreted in not nearly the way they are intended.

This is incredibly aggravating.

Soon I may spew it here.
Maybe you should have a little more faith in humanity. Just say it, if it's taken wrong try to rephrase it until you get your point across. just try to have manners while doing it and avoid taking your frustration of the situation out on the other person. (I'm sure you know this it's just sometimes we all need a little reminder.)
 

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Discussion Starter #49
As an INTP, I'm pissed I sometimes withhold certain information and insights because I KNOW they will be interpreted in not nearly the way they are intended.

This is incredibly aggravating.

Soon I may spew it here.
Doooit Doooit Doooit
 

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first thing popping into my mind, i apologize in advance:

i sometimes feel frustrated with the world, because everyone knows whats going on but no one acknowledges it. we waste our time being fake to try and impress everyone else, and some people work so hard at it. many people have given up and they feel like their lives are worth nothing, and i wish i could save them and make them see how beautiful they and their lives are and could be. And under all this, it just comes down to the fact that all anyone really wants in life is to love and be loved.

i suppose this really shows just how much of an INFP i am haha, with this idealism i never really realized, and i'm always dreaming of impossible things that should be common sense. the world is much simpler than people make it out to be.
 

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Heh. I don't know what's going on with the congruent functions, but look at mine: Ne>Ni>Fi>Ti>Si>Fe>Se>Te. Like, is that normal for an INFP?
I think that's abnormal, but my order's weird too. It happens.
 

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The (stream of conscious?) venting thread for infps.

Take issue with something going on in society?

Having a bad day?

Have something on your mind that wont go away?

Experience something so fabulous you just have to express it?

Accidentally sold your mother to a pimp in a back alley game of poker?

Post your vent here!



+ And a friendly reminder to please be respectful to other members and leave your baggage at the door :eek:)

Added: 30th October 2010: This thread is not for venting about members on here, or regarding the forum. Because it ends up being disruptive and potentially offensive and slanderous. If you have an issue with a person or the rules and regulations of this website, please take it up with the people involved. This is not the place.

Added: 31st October 2010: Do not disrupt the flow of the thread with spam.
 

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I'm gonna post 'ere anyway!!

I wanna get out of this house already so I can go out into the world...I really do. I want to get my driver's license and go to a museum or something!!! I don't know why my parents think those are only for little kids...are they? I don't know...I like 'em. I just want to get out...I don't see the use in staying trapped in a prison cell for 18 years...*sigh* at least it's almost over -_-

If I get more wordy, I'm gonna make less sense...
 

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I'm gonna post 'ere anyway!!

I wanna get out of this house already so I can go out into the world...I really do. I want to get my driver's license and go to a museum or something!!! I don't know why my parents think those are only for little kids...are they? I don't know...I like 'em. I just want to get out...I don't see the use in staying trapped in a prison cell for 18 years...*sigh* at least it's almost over -_-

If I get more wordy, I'm gonna make less sense...
I feel you, helena. I'm contemplating deferring uni next semester so I can just get out of my families house, and live on my own. I don't care if it's a shoebox :\

Is it possible for you at all to live on your own? or perhaps you can spend as much time as possible outside the house.. and visit a nearby library for hours?

I have a problem with society. There aren't enough people like YOU!
Yes, I agree. The world needs more of ewe!;

 

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My parents refuse to see things from my point of veiw. They think I don't know anything because I'm young. They don't believe that I have the capacity to have a mature, rational discussion. In fact, it is they who need maturing. They are ignorant, judging(non-MBTI definition), lacking in empathy and borderline racist and homophobic. They watch fox news. They refuse to try to understand me on anything, no matter how big or small. Not to mention, they are always trying to diagnose me with some kind of mental disorder, simply because of my INFPness. They think I'm antisocial, though they won't let me out of the house. I'm not even allowed to go on walks by myself. It's not like we live in a bad neighborhood or anything. They just don't trust me, though they wont admit it. They wont let me get Gardasil because they think i'll start sleeping around. HOW IGNORANT CAN YOU BE.
 
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