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I've never been so dumb founded by a friend in my life. I have no idea what to do with this situation. How can someone be so heartless? I'll add the MBT types if it helps. It also makes it easier to know who I'm talking about. Okay so, an ESTJ (possibly mistyped) relative of mine (she's my just gone 16-year-old cousin) has been rather sad lately. We asked her why on Wednesday, she said it was her birthday and no-one said happy birthday to her. My ESFP friend (a definite ESFP, she took the test as well) didn't believe her. I never knew this part of my family well, she is a bit of a joker but I believed her, what reason did I have not to? The reason I'd say the ESFP didn't believe her is because if it's her birthday and she has so many friends, why didn't anyone say anything all day? I'm guessing this is where it all started. Bear with me a second.

The next day we saw the ESTJ again she ignored us. My ESFP friend didn't notice how upset she was, she's closer to my cousin than I am and she said my cousin reminds her of me so she wants to hang around with her and get closer. I asked ESTJ was everything okay, she ignored me. She left us, going home without saying a thing. The ESFP didn't care. I asked did she know anything about what happened and she said she was guessing it had something to do with their friend who was fighting with the ESFP and the ESTJ was "taking sides". I was slightly aggravated that she didn't go and see that her friend was okay so I encouraged her into doing so. The ESFP came back looking angry. She said the ESTJ was told by this friend she was fighting with to test the ESFP and see she's not a very nice person. The ESTJ did so and told her she did so. I don't know what these "tests" involved but the ESTJ said she was still refusing to take sides, she just wanted to see if her friend was right about the ESFP.

The next day we heard an announcement from across my girlfriend's apartment at around 1:20 (I came home for lunch because her house is up the road from my school) I heard the words "student, back to school, last warning". We looked out the window into an abandoned building and saw who else but the ESTJ stumbling out of one of the old buildings. Of course we rushed over, we both didn't know what was going on. When we found her she was bawling and covered in blood. We rolled up her sleeves and saw she'd cut above her elbow with a carving knife. She was mitching school. The building across the road had obviously known she was there and decided to make that announcement because she was trespassing on dangerous grounds. For whatever reason they'd called the cops. But we called the ambulance and explained what happened to the cops. We went into the ambulance with her. She refused to talk. My girlfriend was trying to comfort her but she was being stubborn. The doctor said the didn't cut herself right, she cut across her veins. He said she was very lucky to be alive though. So, we were no longer needed, me and my girlfriend left. The first thing we did when we got home was ring the ESFP to tell her. She was nonchalant. Our friend came over (the one the ESFP is fighting with) later that day and we talked about what happened. This friend said that the ESFP was warned by the ESTJ that she would do it, for reasons this friend wouldn't provide. She said she found out by reading her messages, she left her phone behind and this mutual friend knew she was upset lately so she was nosy, this was after 1:20. Basically, the ESFP knew the ESTJ wanted to kill herself but completely ignored her. Didn't reply to the texts. So, I later rang the ESFP again because I was in awe. She said "She kept saying I was never going to see her again, I thought she meant as a friend". She wasn't even sorry.

Here's the texts, I have the ESTJs phone with me right now and they furthered my astonishment:

ESTJ: I'm sorry I said I don't consider you a friend. It takes a while for me to get to the stage where I say someone's my friend. I like friendship to be genuine, okay? Don't be insulted. If you consider me a friend I'm sorry for testing you for Jojo's sake.
ESFP: Dont be stupid we are friends :L
ESTJ: ?
ESFP: I couldn't reply i was Walking home.
ESTJ: I'm guessing someone can see your phone, either that you're just apathetic towards me, or maybe someone else has your phone.
ESFP: The first one sorry, stay

3 hours later
ESTJ: I think things would be better off if I wasn't here. I can't believe what I did. I'm so useless. I fuck everything up all the time, it's no wonder you all hate me. I don't want to live anymore.

2 hours later
ESTJ: You're probably with your boyfriend, too busy to bother replying. Say a little goodbye to me in your head. You're obviously not going to reply and you're never going to see me again.

4 hours later
ESTJ: How can you be so heartless?..


What the hell? I text my friend asking her why she let this happen I told her I read the texts. Her reply:

ESFP: You shouldnt read other peoples texts. I didn't know she was going to do it.
Me: They were shown to me and I'm glad I saw them. I want to understand the situation. If someone threatens suicide, you can't be sure they won't do it, you should never be that sure about anything.

Half an hour later
ESFP: Look i made a mistake a took it up wrong im sorry.
Me: You shouldn't be that careless. You should've rang her parents. If she was looking for attention then she'd learn from it that way. I thought you were more sensible than that.

3 hours later
Me: You're on facebook chatting away like nothing happened, if you don't have credit at least have the decency to send me a mail.

20 minutes ago
Me: I know you may not be close to her but Jesus Christ, don't you value a life? Everything you're doing says you don't give a shit. What the hell is going on? Can you please reply? You're just after saying you had credit on facebook.


No reply.


I cannot make any sense of this. I know it's long but please help. I'm no good with situations like this. I really want to understand it too. The ESFP is a good friend of mine, she's someone I liked a lot, she's always conscious of people's feelings and she'd usually be the first to help someone if they even so much as frowned.

I don't know if I overreacted. I need another's point of view. Anything.
 

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Maybe she doesn't want to look too actively sorry since certain people would take that as an admission of guilt - and she doesn't think she should be blamed - or at least not blamed beyond a certain level. A sort of disjunction between her actions, which are not so terrible in themselves, and the consequences, which are far worse, though not direct, and something she likely believes she could not have foreseen - not completely unreasonably either. She probably doesn't think she has the responsibility to look after someone's emotional drama if they aren't getting along with her and if the person wasn't entirely kind to her. And she very likely didn't take it seriously - I don't know if the ESTJ has a history of being dramatic, but even if not there is a sort of "this happens to other people, not people I know" idea a lot of people can have. Plus she may quite easily have thought the ESTJ would have messaged someone else too - someone she wasn't fighting with, someone in a better position to help. Plus a few ignored texts is hardly the bulk of the ESTJs problem, even with the fight too - the ESFP might feel she is being blamed for the suicide attempt when much larger issues are at play. It could possibly be an aggressive attempt to set boundaries of blame.

Does that make sense?
 

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People who threaten to commit suicide are pathetic, period. And I don't consider that a threat. All they're trying to do is get attention, which is apparently working. This is why I don't have female friends.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Maybe she doesn't want to look too actively sorry since certain people would take that as an admission of guilt - and she doesn't think she should be blamed - or at least not blamed beyond a certain level. A sort of disjunction between her actions, which are not so terrible in themselves, and the consequences, which are far worse and something she likely believes she could not have foreseen. She probably doesn't think she has the responsibility to look after someone's emotional drama if they aren't getting along with her and if the person wasn't entirely kind to her. And she very likely didn't take it seriously - I don't know if the ESTJ has a history of being dramatic, but even if not there is a sort of "this happens to other people, not people I know" idea a lot of people can have. Plus she may quite easily have thought the ESTJ would have messaged someone else too - someone she wasn't fighting with, someone in a better position to help. Plus a few ignored texts is hardly the bulk of the ESTJs problem, even with the fight too - the ESFP might feel she is being blamed for the suicide attempt when much larger issues are at play. It could possibly be an aggressive attempt to set boundaries of blame.

Does that make sense?
The ESTJ, from what I know, is quite cool headed. She's often admired for being tough, I was told by her best friends they'd never seen her cry. I don't think it was the texts that did this. Nobody's that dramatic. But after revealing she wanted to commit suicide, then being ignored, doesn't exactly help. Her birthday and that incident may've been the last straws. I wouldn't assume that's the only thing that caused it. She doesn't even have a history of mental illnesses. I know whatever problems she's been having this past couple of months, the ESFP and the girl she's fighting with are the only ones who know what's wrong with her. But neither of them told me.

Well, I mean, if someone says they're going to kill themselves, whether you think they're lying or not, you shouldn't ignore them, even those looking for attention would be unhealthy to go to those extends and need at least for someone show they care. But more importantly, there is a chance this person might do it so why would you risk that? As I said, nobody should be that sure. She just kept it to herself, didn't tell a soul and completely ignored the girl obviously pleading for attention.

It does make sense. I'm impressed you pulled that from the information, it's definitely a way of looking at it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
People who threaten to commit suicide are pathetic, period. And I don't consider that a threat. All they're trying to do is get attention, which is apparently working. This is why I don't have female friends.
She didn't only threaten suicide, she tried it and almost succeeded too. She was obviously very unhealthy.

This kind of attitude towards suicide is probably why it's so common. If their emotions get the better of them, if you're ignoring them or egging them on in disbelief they're going to prove you wrong. If they're actually suicidal anyway.
 

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The ESTJ, from what I know, is quite cool headed. She's often admired for being tough, I was told by her best friends they'd never seen her cry. I don't think it was the texts that did this. Nobody's that dramatic. But after revealing she wanted to commit suicide, then being ignored, doesn't exactly help. Her birthday and that incident may've been the last straws. I wouldn't assume that's the only thing that caused it. She doesn't even have a history of mental illnesses. I know whatever problems she's been having this past couple of months, the ESFP and the girl she's fighting with are the only ones who know what's wrong with her. But neither of them told me.

Well, I mean, if someone says they're going to kill themselves, whether you think they're lying or not, you shouldn't ignore them, even those looking for attention would be unhealthy to go to those extends and need at least for someone show they care. But more importantly, there is a chance this person might do it so why would you risk that? As I said, nobody should be that sure. She just kept it to herself, didn't tell a soul and completely ignored the girl obviously pleading for attention.

It does make sense. I'm impressed you pulled that from the information, it's definitely a way of looking at it.
Perhaps, then, the cool-headedness is one of the reasons she didn't take it seriously? It seemed, perhaps, so uncharacteristic that the ESFP may have seen it as especially unlikely? especially since suicide wasn't specifically mentioned - "I don't want to live" could be interpreted as just the feeling, not the intention. And the other "you're not going to see me again" when she had already said they're not friends could, conceivably be just in terms of the end of the friendship-that-wasn't. To you, post the attempt, the meaning is obvious - beforehand, to her it's someone apparently stable, in general, who is just feeling down and wants to end the friendship, with no other obvious indicators of suicidality. Maybe it didn't even appear to her as a suicide threat until after the attempt was made. Also possibly it could seem like guilt-tripping or something passive-aggressive. Or even another "test" - which, if it were, would be rather infuriating. Quite conceivably, she doesn't think it was obvious given the context, and doesn't think people should expect her to read minds. She admits her impression turned out to be wrong - but it could be she genuinely did not see the danger.

I'm not saying you think those would be the only things that caused it, but maybe you could come off that way in the intensity of your upset? If she feels blamed when there are admittedly a number of other bigger factors, her resistance to blame may be because she's seeing a lot more from you than she thinks her behaviour on its own warrants and is assuming you must be bringing the rest in? Probably felt not a little blame coming from the ESTJ too.
 

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People who threaten to commit suicide are pathetic, period. And I don't consider that a threat. All they're trying to do is get attention, which is apparently working. This is why I don't have female friends.
Strange at one point when I was suicidal I never really told anyone. Not everyone who have thoughts of suicide are out for attention. Depression can do some crazy ass things to your though patterns. Not to mention make it even harder to control your own thoughts and emotions. Don't blame you for being worried. But unfortunately I can't make much sense of it either. Could be more events before leading up to this that you or anyone is aware of. Sorry I couldn't be more help
 

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People can be so fucking cruel and self absorbed.
 
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She didn't only threaten suicide, she tried it and almost succeeded too. She was obviously very unhealthy.

This kind of attitude towards suicide is probably why it's so common. If their emotions get the better of them, if you're ignoring them or egging them on in disbelief they're going to prove you wrong. If they're actually suicidal anyway.
If somebody is dumb enough to commit suicide, let them. We don't need people like that in our society. The world is overpopulated as it is. You can call me a bitch, I don't care. But healthy people don't need to waste their time talking people out of committing suicide. It's their choice. Girls are dramatic as hell. If you're worried about her, send her to the psychiatric ward.
 

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This is why I don't have female friends.
You are also a female. If it was another generalizing and making this comment, then you would be in this group too. And ftr - I don't really have female friends either but I wouldn't go so far as to generalize this way.
 

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If somebody is dumb enough to commit suicide, let them. We don't need people like that in our society. The world is overpopulated as it is. You can call me a bitch, I don't care. But healthy people don't need to waste their time talking people out of committing suicide. It's their choice. Girls are dramatic as hell. If you're worried about her, send her to the psychiatric ward.
Well even the best of people can turn suicidal in the worst of times eg: The Great Depression.
 

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If somebody is dumb enough to commit suicide, let them. We don't need people like that in our society. The world is overpopulated as it is. You can call me a bitch, I don't care. But healthy people don't need to waste their time talking people out of committing suicide. It's their choice. Girls are dramatic as hell. If you're worried about her, send her to the psychiatric ward.
Plenty of people who have had mental problems at some point, and get some help, end up better, and contributing to society. Tell us, what other sorts should society just dump without question?
 

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Plenty of people who have had mental problems at some point, and get some help, end up better, and contributing to society. Tell us, what other sorts should society just dump without question?
People over 30. I am scheduled for a ride on an iceberg next year :crying:

As for this thread, please try to be respectful a bit. This is not in the debate forum.
 

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Yes and what Defines a "Healthy Person" anyway there was a poll that said 20 percent of high school students have considered killing themselves. Are you justifying one fifth of our population killing themselves, thank god you don't rule my country.
 

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You are also a female. If it was another generalizing and making this comment, then you would be in this group too. And ftr - I don't really have female friends either but I wouldn't go so far as to generalize this way.
Females are horrible.

For example:

Best friend/cousin fucks my ex fiance after being broken up for 2 months.

Best friend/cousin (different one) talks shit about this girl who's getting abortions every few months.. then goes and hangs out with her.

Best friend, mutual friend of an ex fiance.. as soon as my ex and I break up, she calls me a cunt and all sorts of shit even though the breakup wasn't about me.. it was about him wanting to marry somebody else.

Best friend, introduces me to a girl (after she says she's a slut) - so, we go camping.. drink a few beers, and get along just fine.. and then after the camping trip they say I was talking shit about some girl, even though they were the ones saying horrible things about her.

------

I've been suicidal in my mind, but I would never actually kill myself. I was a cutter for almost 5 years, and nobody knew until a year ago that I did that. People like your friend, are just trying to get attention. She didn't die because she didn't want to. If she was really going to commit suicide and WANTED to, she would. It's not that hard to kill yourself. Those who try but don't succeed are usually just being dramatic.. even though they DO have problems, they won't actually kill themselves.
 

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Females are horrible.

For example:

Best friend/cousin fucks my ex fiance after being broken up for 2 months.

Best friend/cousin (different one) talks shit about this girl who's getting abortions every few months.. then goes and hangs out with her.

Best friend, mutual friend of an ex fiance.. as soon as my ex and I break up, she calls me a cunt and all sorts of shit even though the breakup wasn't about me.. it was about him wanting to marry somebody else.

Best friend, introduces me to a girl (after she says she's a slut) - so, we go camping.. drink a few beers, and get along just fine.. and then after the camping trip they say I was talking shit about some girl, even though they were the ones saying horrible things about her.

------

I've been suicidal in my mind, but I would never actually kill myself. I was a cutter for almost 5 years, and nobody knew until a year ago that I did that. People like your friend, are just trying to get attention. She didn't die because she didn't want to. If she was really going to commit suicide and WANTED to, she would. It's not that hard to kill yourself. Those who try but don't succeed are usually just being dramatic.. even though they DO have problems, they won't actually kill themselves.
Appearing depressed or sad most of the time.
(Untreated depression is the number one cause for suicide.)

Talking or writing about death or suicide.

Withdrawing from family and friends.

Feeling hopeless.

Feeling helpless.

Feeling strong anger or rage.

Feeling trapped -- like there is no way out of a situation.

Experiencing dramatic mood changes.

Abusing drugs or alcohol.

Exhibiting a change in personality.

Acting impulsively.

Losing interest in most activities.

Experiencing a change in sleeping habits.

Experiencing a change in eating habits.

Losing interest in most activities.

Performing poorly at work or in school.

Giving away prized possessions.

Writing a will.

Feeling excessive guilt or shame.

Acting recklessly.
Wrong again.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Perhaps, then, the cool-headedness is one of the reasons she didn't take it seriously? It seemed, perhaps, so uncharacteristic that the ESFP may have seen it as especially unlikely? especially since suicide wasn't specifically mentioned - "I don't want to live" could be interpreted as just the feeling, not the intention. And the other "you're not going to see me again" when she had already said they're not friends could, conceivably be just in terms of the end of the friendship-that-wasn't. To you, post the attempt, the meaning is obvious - beforehand, to her it's someone apparently stable, in general, who is just feeling down and wants to end the friendship, with no other obvious indicators of suicidality. Maybe it didn't even appear to her as a suicide threat until after the attempt was made. Also possibly it could seem like guilt-tripping or something passive-aggressive. Or even another "test" - which, if it were, would be rather infuriating. Quite conceivably, she doesn't think it was obvious given the context, and doesn't think people should expect her to read minds. She admits her impression turned out to be wrong - but it could be she genuinely did not see the danger.

I'm not saying you think those would be the only things that caused it, but maybe you could come off that way in the intensity of your upset? If she feels blamed when there are admittedly a number of other bigger factors, her resistance to blame may be because she's seeing a lot more from you than she thinks her behaviour on its own warrants and is assuming you must be bringing the rest in? Probably felt not a little blame coming from the ESTJ too.
Ever consider studying psychology?

I think the test thing could be a perfectly good explanation.

I just wish she'd reply. This isn't like her. She's acting like nothing happened and she said she wasn't angry so why aren't we discussing this like we normally do? Whenever a problem arises we rely on discussing it out. It's the reason why we have a strong friendship.
 

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I just wish she'd reply. This isn't like her. She's acting like nothing happened and she said she wasn't angry so why aren't we discussing this like we normally do? Whenever a problem arises we rely on discussing it out. It's the reason why we have a strong friendship.
She probably feels guilty for putting you through that mental stress. Like I said, she probably didn''t want to ACTUALLY kill herself. And when I do stupid things, I want to forget about it.. so, she's probably just trying to make everyone forget that it happened. She's probably okay, but I'd still keep a close eye on her.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
She probably feels guilty for putting you through that mental stress. Like I said, she probably didn''t want to ACTUALLY kill herself. And when I do stupid things, I want to forget about it.. so, she's probably just trying to make everyone forget that it happened. She's probably okay, but I'd still keep a close eye on her.
I was talking about my friend, not my cousin. The ESFP not the ESTJ haha.
 
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