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I was talking about my friend, not my cousin. The ESFP not the ESTJ haha.
Well, nobody likes being put in a situation like that.. no matter how much you love and care about somebody, it's still tough to think about them taking their own life, whether they went through with it or not. I don't know.. I'm sorry though.
 

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Ever consider studying psychology?

I think the test thing could be a perfectly good explanation.

I just wish she'd reply. This isn't like her. She's acting like nothing happened and she said she wasn't angry so why aren't we discussing this like we normally do? Whenever a problem arises we rely on discussing it out. It's the reason why we have a strong friendship.
I did, a little, in undergrad. Psycholinguistics was the best. And my sister has schizophrenia, and a number of friends anxiety, one PTSD, so I do try to read up on it. It's pretty fascinating.

As for her...maybe to refuse to treat it as a problem is a way of emphasising that it shouldn't be such a big problem - at least between you two, that the real problem is something else. & Given the hostility, she's not in a position where she can easily/freely sympathise with the whole suicide attempt thing because, being portrayed as the triggor/cause/failure in the whole thing makes that a little awkward. Maybe she wants you to calm down a bit too, first? After all, a friend nearly committed suicide - you're bound to be upset and you did seriously tell her off. She might feel like this is more her being a punching bag than a discussion, or be afraid about the possibility. The two ESFPs I know are fairly avoidant when it comes to conflict - your friend sounds better, as she is able to talk it out, but maybe in a situation of heightened emotion it is still hard for her? Plus, she probably feels bad too - and doesn't need accusations heightening her guilt - which she likely feels, even if she feels it is a bit unfair. Certainly she is not unmoved by this - avoidance could be her way of coping. I know for some people they need to reassert normalcy for themselves in the face of trauma, even to the degree of apppearing insensitive. To sort of get distance from the bad thing that happened and take refuge in everyday little acts, act and feel as normal as possible. She might need a little time before you guys talk it out.
 

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Your ESFP needs to stay far away from the ESTJ out of her own protection. This ESTJ person is highly manipulative and has a very dark wicked side. It's astonishing how badly she wanted to make someone else feel. Do you know how this ESTJ is in romantic relationships? Wow. She would put someone through the ringer.

You are being manipulated too, Aideen.

I'm going to break down my thoughts for you in your OP:

I've never been so dumb founded by a friend in my life. I have no idea what to do with this situation. How can someone be so heartless? I'll add the MBT types if it helps. It also makes it easier to know who I'm talking about. Okay so, an ESTJ (possibly mistyped) relative of mine (she's my just gone 16-year-old cousin) has been rather sad lately. We asked her why on Wednesday, she said it was her birthday and no-one said happy birthday to her. My ESFP friend (a definite ESFP, she took the test as well) didn't believe her. I never knew this part of my family well, she is a bit of a joker but I believed her, what reason did I have not to? The reason I'd say the ESFP didn't believe her is because if it's her birthday and she has so many friends, why didn't anyone say anything all day? I'm guessing this is where it all started. Bear with me a second.
I'm guessing your ESFP friend can tell the ESTJ was being full of drama. She didn't believe her because she knows that the ESTJ was pouting just to make other's feel bad. Regardless whether people called the ESTJ or not, the ESFP wasn't buying into her drama. I'm absolutely sure she is used to the ESTJ's drama moments. Can you not see how the ESTJ's response was guilt inducing?

The next day we saw the ESTJ again she ignored us.
Are you not aware that this is more drama on her end? It's rude. I wouldn't pay attention to it either. She is trying to manipulate either one or the both of you and you are suppose to come crawling to her asking her "what's the matter?" Ignoring is childish and rude. But it does put the focus back onto her.

My ESFP friend didn't notice how upset she was, she's closer to my cousin than I am and she said my cousin reminds her of me so she wants to hang around with her and get closer.
The ESFP may be strong in the sense that either she knows she herself has not done anything wrong. She is used to being "tested" and frankly is probably a little tired of it. Or she really doesn't have the words to explain the manipulation.

It's is strange that she wanted to hang out with her. It seems like she likes her but just has to set some boundaries. Maybe you provide the "buffer" between these two. Maybe it is easier for the ESFP to hang out with the ESTJ when you're around. She can't completely toss her and her games because she is all to aware that the girl will do something dramatic. Do you have any idea about the previous exchanges between these two? The ESFP may not be the best at bringing up the past.

I asked ESTJ was everything okay, she ignored me. She left us, going home without saying a thing.
Yeah, this is very rude. You had asked if she was okay and she ignored you. That is the most you can do with a person. [quoteThe ESFP didn't care. [/quote]I wouldn't either, the ESTJ is using drama to get attention. It usually only works if a person keeps buying into her drama.
I asked did she know anything about what happened and she said she was guessing it had something to do with their friend who was fighting with the ESFP and the ESTJ was "taking sides". I was slightly aggravated that she didn't go and see that her friend was okay so I encouraged her into doing so. The ESFP came back looking angry. She said the ESTJ was told by this friend she was fighting with to test the ESFP and see she's not a very nice person. The ESTJ did so and told her she did so. I don't know what these "tests" involved but the ESTJ said she was still refusing to take sides, she just wanted to see if her friend was right about the ESFP.
Damn, is this ESTJ trying to make the ESFP feel bad. She is very controlling. How cruel to tell a friend "I need to test you". She is basically trying to tell her "you need to behave or I may choose the other side". Plus, she is trying to pass the blame onto someone else for her behavior. She does what everyone tells her? I would be incredibly hurt if a friend of mine says I need to prove myself and then on top of it blame my need to test on someone else. Like they could stand up for me. Please, this ESTJ is not so innocent.

The next day we heard an announcement from across my girlfriend's apartment at around 1:20 (I came home for lunch because her house is up the road from my school) I heard the words "student, back to school, last warning". We looked out the window into an abandoned building and saw who else but the ESTJ stumbling out of one of the old buildings. Of course we rushed over, we both didn't know what was going on. When we found her she was bawling and covered in blood. We rolled up her sleeves and saw she'd cut above her elbow with a carving knife. She was mitching school. The building across the road had obviously known she was there and decided to make that announcement because she was trespassing on dangerous grounds. For whatever reason they'd called the cops.
Yep, just the drama she wants. Go her. She could have gone some place else, but this provided more attention. Did she know you guys were close and could find her? I believe the ESTJ is setting the ESFP up to look bad in front of you. Why is she doing that? Do you know? "Poor me. Look how the ESTJ treats me." And right now you're buying it.

But we called the ambulance and explained what happened to the cops. We went into the ambulance with her. She refused to talk. My girlfriend was trying to comfort her but she was being stubborn. The doctor said the didn't cut herself right, she cut across her veins.
This is important. I sliced my wrists at 17 and knew to go vertically. When someone wants to die, they usually succeed. Don't get too worked up over this. My daughter also cut this year. If you ever want to know about the phenomenon of cutting, give me a pm. I've dealt with it in both myself and with my daughter. Don't let it get you so hysterical.

He said she was very lucky to be alive though.
And if she were to die, that wouldn't be you or anyone's fault. You understand that? If someone takes their life, there is nothing you could have done or even the ESFP. If someone actually dies (and I doubted the ESTJ wanted to die), the people that survived the suicide are not to blame. You and your friends are teenagers. NOT licensed psychologist who are skilled at dealing with suicidal people. And even a therapist, would have put her into a hospital if she were to threaten suicide. They need to be locked up with 24 hour supervision, but even then the suicidal person may still find away. If they want to do it, they will do it.

When someone threatens suicide with me, I do the same thing a therapist would. I will put them away 51/50 (against their will). Most of them stop saying. But usually, if someone REALLY wants to kill themselves, they don't give a warning first. They don't give a warning because they want to do it. Why would they give a warning if someone could stop them? See what I mean? Still, it's a gamble but I know I am not to blame if someone dies and I won't let someone emotionally manipulate me or try to control me with threats of suicide.

I've had ex's do this to me just so I could come over when they want, or because I wasn't returning phone calls. The police have told me "then let them do it. Call us and we can put them away 51/50 and that person is out of your hands. They shouldn't be in your hands anyway."

So, we were no longer needed, me and my girlfriend left. The first thing we did when we got home was ring the ESFP to tell her. She was nonchalant. Our friend came over (the one the ESFP is fighting with) later that day and we talked about what happened. This friend said that the ESFP was warned by the ESTJ that she would do it, for reasons this friend wouldn't provide.
She was "warned"?? See? It was a threat. It's abusive. No, this is the type of girl that doesn't hold a gun to someone else's head to make them do what she wants them to do. This is a girl that will hold a gun to her own head to make other's do what she wants them to do.

She said she found out by reading her messages, she left her phone behind and this mutual friend knew she was upset lately so she was nosy, this was after 1:20. Basically, the ESFP knew the ESTJ wanted to kill herself but completely ignored her. Didn't reply to the texts.
Where are the texts to you when she needed someone? Where are the texts to this other friend when the ESTJ "needed" someone. How convenient that her phone was left for this other friend to find all the texts. What are they both trying to do to this ESFP? Why does everyone want to blame her? Because when she is asked to "jump", she doesn't ask "how high"?

So, I later rang the ESFP again because I was in awe. She said "She kept saying I was never going to see her again, I thought she meant as a friend". She wasn't even sorry.
She has nothing to be sorry for. Even if this was a real suicide attempt, or a cry for help that had gone bad, the ESFP would be feeling some sort of guilt for things she could have done better, I'm sure. Nobody needs to make her feel worse. Unfortunately I know a few friends and family of suicide. They last thing they need is to be judged for "not doing all they can." No. That's wrong.

Here's the texts, I have the ESTJs phone with me right now and they furthered my astonishment:

ESTJ: I'm sorry I said I don't consider you a friend. It takes a while for me to get to the stage where I say someone's my friend. I like friendship to be genuine, okay? Don't be insulted. If you consider me a friend I'm sorry for testing you for Jojo's sake.
ESFP: Dont be stupid we are friends :L
That first comment by the ESTJ is hurtful. The ESTJ did something wrong. It's clear as day. She has devalued their friendship and has treated her with disrespect. I believe the ESFP may have just stuffed her hurt and resentment, but then chose to distance herself from her friend who admittingly plays games with her. And the comment "don't be insulted" is used by people who HAVE insulted.

ESTJ: ?
ESFP: I couldn't reply i was Walking home.
ESTJ: I'm guessing someone can see your phone, either that you're just apathetic towards me, or maybe someone else has your phone.
ESFP: The first one sorry, stay

3 hours later
ESTJ: I think things would be better off if I wasn't here. I can't believe what I did. I'm so useless. I fuck everything up all the time, it's no wonder you all hate me. I don't want to live anymore.

2 hours later
ESTJ: You're probably with your boyfriend, too busy to bother replying. Say a little goodbye to me in your head. You're obviously not going to reply and you're never going to see me again.

4 hours later
ESTJ: How can you be so heartless?..
What the hell? I text my friend asking her why she let this happen I told her I read the texts. Her reply:

ESFP: You shouldnt read other peoples texts. I didn't know she was going to do it.
Me: They were shown to me and I'm glad I saw them. I want to understand the situation. If someone threatens suicide, you can't be sure they won't do it, you should never be that sure about anything.

Half an hour later
ESFP: Look i made a mistake a took it up wrong im sorry.
Me: You shouldn't be that careless. You should've rang her parents. If she was looking for attention then she'd learn from it that way. I thought you were more sensible than that.
Aideen, she doesn't need this scrutiny. Is anybody asking about how the ESFP feels? If anything, the ESTJ has gotten the attention over and over. The ESFP may have originally been hurting before any of this happens and she would have a right to her anger and hurt if she was. That doesn't change because the person who has hurt her attempts suicide. The ESFP's feelings are being neglected over and over. And now she is being made to feel bad. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, Aideen. I know you. I know you want to do what's right. But I believe you are being manipulated by these girls you know less.

Btw, are you sure no texts were erased before you read them? I don't trust either Jojo or the ESTJ at this point.

3 hours later
Me: You're on facebook chatting away like nothing happened, if you don't have credit at least have the decency to send me a mail.

20 minutes ago
Me: I know you may not be close to her but Jesus Christ, don't you value a life? Everything you're doing says you don't give a shit. What the hell is going on? Can you please reply? You're just after saying you had credit on facebook.


No reply.
Jojo and the ESTJ now have you doing their work for them. Be careful. There are some dirty people in the world. I know you know that more than me sometimes, but I've also seen you put up with quite a bit of shit as well too.

I cannot make any sense of this. I know it's long but please help. I'm no good with situations like this. I really want to understand it too. The ESFP is a good friend of mine, she's someone I liked a lot, she's always conscious of people's feelings and she'd usually be the first to help someone if they even so much as frowned.
Then trust that, Aideen. I think your gut is right. See how none of this makes sense?

You're going to have to stop the attacks on the ESFP for now. She is going to have to trust you so that she can open up to you. When you can go back into her life unaccusingly, ask her about her side. Or simply just ask her how she is feeling. She might also be very hurt you've accused her of all these things as well and has chosen to handle it by distancing herself from you for now. Earn her trust back and help her open up to you. She may have a lot to spill in time. She may not even know that she is justified in originally being hurt or that you'll even believe her at this point.


This is why I don't have female friends.
Wow. That is completely sexist. I've had one female and 4 males try to manipulate me with threats of suicide. I'm sure part of why you see it that way is because it's often used as a tool to manipulate the opposite sex into liking them. There are some very insecure people in this world of both sexes.
 

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In the past I had threatened suicide before to my ex boyfriends even though I never carried it out. It was because I was really depressed and had unhealthy thinking patterns. It's one of the darkest places ever. If you know anyone who's like that, encourage him/her to seek professional help or preferably investigate what's the real root to his/her depression. There's usually a root, even if it's hidden somewhere underneath layers of what others may perceive as 'attention seeking.'
 

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In the past I had threatened suicide before to my ex boyfriends even though I never carried it out. It was because I was really depressed and had unhealthy thinking patterns. It's one of the darkest places ever. If you know anyone who's like that, encourage him/her to seek professional help or preferably investigate what's the real root to his/her depression. There's usually a root, even if it's hidden somewhere underneath layers of what others may perceive as 'attention seeking.'
Thank you Izzie. That is very courageous of you to admit.

And yeah, I agree to encourage someone to get help regardless. There is something definitely wrong with them. But once you've done that, remove yourself from the responsibility. A person really has to want to get help.
 

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Thank you Izzie. That is very courageous of you to admit.

And yeah, I agree to encourage someone to get help regardless. There is something definitely wrong with them. But once you've done that, remove yourself from the responsibility. A person really has to want to get help.
Yeah in the past I had sent them text messages saying stuff like,''Nobody loves me. I wish I was dead. Why do you love me anyway?'' It's a miracle that they're not jerks.

I like to think that I still turned out okay.
 

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Yeah in the past I had sent them text messages saying stuff like,''Nobody loves me. I wish I was dead. Why do you love me anyway?'' It's a miracle that they're not jerks.

I like to think that I still turned out okay.
Why would you ever think of that, you are one of the prettiest women Ive seen in a while :]
 
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I think it is important to show empathy and love for people who are going through serious depression and suicidal-state though. If it hadn't been for the patience of my ex boyfriends, I wouldn't be who I am today.

However it is also important to encourage them to face what's bothering them themselves. I read this quote somewhere..by a victim of rape. She said,'' You save yourself or you remain unsaved.''
 

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Why would you ever think of that, you are one of the prettiest women Ive seen in a while :]
I'd ask you how you know how she looks like, but you probably think im a really hung kittie :)
 

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sorry if i'm saying something that someone else said, I didn't read all the posts.

People that say there going to end there life are sending out a message that they need help.
When you know that persone I would take the first time seriusly and help them or get help
for them.
If you have tried and they are saying the same things and don't accept your help, then you
should not feel that you are not helping, because sadly some people do this to get attention.
Some people crave this type of attention and draine out your energy, you have to be carefull.
I would tell you AB to try not to get too emotionaly involve, you can try to find information or
ressurces for her so that she can get all the help she can have. Maybe at the hospital they
will try to keep her and give her the help that she needs? (thats what they do here)
As for your other friend I would maybe try to understand why she reacted the way she did.
If she upsets you, I would take a brake from her, for a while.

One of my cousins commited suicide, I still feel that my aunt should of been more supportive
or that she just could have done something to avoid it...
I think it's a normal feeling to have after someone has comited suicide.

I think I can relate to how you're felling, it's unsettling the vision that you saw of her walking
out and the blood, I hope you have other friends or familly that you can talk to.

/hug
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
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Thank you. Because of this post I apologized and got a reply, I even said the neglecting feelings part. She said she doesn't want to discuss it over texting or facebook, she says we can talk it all out on Monday (mid-term so no school).

It's amazing the different angles people are coming in from, it definitely provides a lot of insight, you and lirulin have been very helpful and I understand the situation a lot better. I didn't know anyone would help me this much. I find when I'm introspective I always arrive at strange answers without other's inputs, so thanks so much.

The thing is, the ESFP and my cousin are just after meeting, they know each other about 3 weeks now but they met a few times before just never really paid attention to each other, obviously the ESFP considered her a friend quickly but the ESTJ just didn't feel the same. After some investigation I figured out that Jojo (I was like shit, how did she know her name? I didn't censor the texts xD) was fighting with the ESFP because the ESFP had apparently used Jojo's best friend for sex (I wasn't told who this friend is, I didn't even think the ESFP was having sex with anyone). The ESFP never liked Jojo and she'd always bitch about her to me :)dry:) so Jojo made sure that her friend stopped speaking to the ESFP and turned the friend against the ESFP which drove the ESFP crazy. The ESTJ doesn't know Jojo very well but better than she knows the ESFP, but the ESTJ mentioned to the ESFP about meeting up with Jojo to which the ESFP told her to be weary of her. The ESTJ claimed she wasn't taking sides, since she knows Jojo's friend who was "being used" quite well, so that gave her some involvement, I'm not sure how much. Jojo had warned her about the ESFP and told her to check for herself. I think after the birthday incident the ESTJ had made her own mind up and was convinced that Jojo was right about the ESFP and decided to end their friendship. She never cared much for me and generally acts that way around me anyway, even as a child she was stand-off-ish and rude. But I don't think she'd stage a suicide attempt for attention. But, she could be extremely unhealthy and I don't trust Jojo, so you never know, which makes me feel a little sick.

The ESTJ left her phone in school, she left it in her pencil case which she left in her locker with a suicide note.The old warehouse is this place



just outside those windows and across the road, though you probably can't see it very well, is my girlfriend's apartment. She came out of this building (I could only get a picture of upstairs). The strangest thing is you can enter this place in ways that the people in the building won't see you. The announcement was actually quite chilling too. We heard a lot of shouting and screaming, it was boys, there's a boys school right across the road from our school but they're able to leave school at lunch, we aren't. I don't know if the announcement was made at the boys because they were trespassing, I don't even know for sure if there were boys in there but we heard boys right before the announcement. So, were they giving out because the boys were trespassing? What are the chances the boys were trespassing? Did they see a student from a school that doesn't allow schools to go home after checking camera footage and hearing all that screaming then discovered her coming in? I'm not entirely sure. Either way it looks suspicious, unless she's a little silly and just wandered in and thought "I'm going to die anyway, why be cautious?". It's a place school mitchers always go all the time, it's close to both schools, closed off and the police/brigade can't reach it. I never knew that building would care too much if they saw kids entering it, but there are cameras facing this place.

I really want to know what this "bad thing" she did and what way she fucked up. This could be the key to this. I'm really suspicious of Jojo anyway. She started saying things like the ESFP can't forgive her because of this thing and she didn't care if she died, which I think is just disgusting.

Either way it seems like someone is doing something heartless to me.

I was talking to her parents when me and my friend who knows the ESTJ went up to the hospital (this person is both friends with the ESFP, Jojo and the ESTJ, but she's a female and I don't think the ESFP is a lesbian she would've told me but I know this friend is bisexual, strange right? I actually introduced her to everyone because I know her through my lesbianism lol). The ESTJs parents thanked me and told me to thank Claire. They told us the ESTJ confessed to cutting across a couple of times, she'd waited there for two and a half hours, bleeding. She lost a lot of blood.

Also, one last note, the suicide warning, I think that was more of a "let's see if anyone actually cares about me" thing. I'm not sure though. I don't want to imagine the ESTJ is this bad, because I know the ESFP has done some very cruel things to people before including me.
 

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Btw sorry if everything has been resolved, it took me a long time to type out a response and it seem everyone else has put in their input

The ESFP came back looking angry. She said the ESTJ was told by this friend she was fighting with to test the ESFP and see she's not a very nice person. The ESTJ did so and told her she did so. I don't know what these "tests" involved but the ESTJ said she was still refusing to take sides, she just wanted to see if her friend was right about the ESFP.
So what you have here is a situation where there is a fight between the ESFP and the mutual friend. The mutual friend then brings the ESTJ into the fight making her take sides and claims all these things about the ESFP and her apparent lack of morals in.

All the ESTJ knows is that she tested the ESFP as suggested by the mutual friend, and because the ESFP didn't react to the "TEST" correctly, it is assumed that the mutual friend is correct. Which could mean that anything that they say could be correct. What else has this friend been telling an young impressionable 16 year old girl?

Our friend came over (the one the ESFP is fighting with) later that day and we talked about what happened. This friend said that the ESFP was warned by the ESTJ that she would do it, for reasons this friend wouldn't provide.
Why wouldn't this friend provide the reasons? Isn't this important? Wouldn't any information they could give be vital in understanding the situation at hand.

3 hours later
ESTJ: I think things would be better off if I wasn't here. I can't believe what I did. I'm so useless. I fuck everything up all the time, it's no wonder you all hate me. I don't want to live anymore.

2 hours later
ESTJ: You're probably with your boyfriend, too busy to bother replying. Say a little goodbye to me in your head. You're obviously not going to reply and you're never going to see me again.

4 hours later
ESTJ: How can you be so heartless?..
When I first read these messages I didn't see a suicide threat, but knowing what happened and seeing these text gives a different understanding of the situation. I know that this was a suicide threat only because I know what happened.

Given the context of the text I would have interpreted it as "We aren't friends, you all hate me, and you won't ever see me again so this is the last time we will talk to each other"

I think thats the biggest difference from my perspective between saying "I'm going to kill myself" and "I don't want to live anymore". The first is a direct threat, and the other can be interpreted as "I'm having a bad day"

I would even argue that I've had bad days where I've said things like "omg I'm going to kill myself for making such a stupid mistake".

I need another's point of view. Anything.
With the above information at hand I would try looking it at your ESFP friends point of view.

Not only is she fighting with her friend, that friend has convinced your cousin that she is a mean person. She gets put through a series of "test" in which I imagine your cousin would act out to get a reaction out of the ESFP. For example she claims that she is sad because no one said happy birthday to her, but the ESFP doesn't think that this is the real reason that your cousin was acting sad (which it apparently wasn't). The test was designed so that the ESFP would react sympathetically towards your cousin.

the ESFP is pushed by you to see what is wrong with your ESTJ cousin and finds out point blank that her character is being tested and she isn't very happy about it. Its confirmed to the ESFP that she is being manipulated emotionally to respond to a fake situation.

Later on the text messages begin and what the ESFP doesn't know is that she will try to commit suicide. What she does know though is that two friends have been trying to test her by coming up with drama to get a reaction out of her.

The text message situation happens. From what I can tell through the text message, there seems to be a lot of miscommunication. Your cousin seems to think that who ever is responding may not even be the ESFP, and thoroughly ignores the ESFP's replies of "don't be stupid, we are friends" and her explaining that she couldn't reply faster because she was walking home.

Also its ambiguous to that your cousin was going to kill herself as I mentioned earlier.

After the fact,

Not only has the mutual friend convinced your cousin that the ESFP hates her and is a horrible person. It seems that Jojo has convinced you that its the ESFP's fault that your cousin killed herself. Which I don't agree with.

so currently through the eyes of the ESFP, a friend has tried to commit suicide and everyone is convinced that its her fault. Everyone hates her and doesn't want her around because they all think that she's some horrible heartless monster. Somehow she is expected to fully understand a situation even though secret tests are being forced on her without her knowledge.

anyways I don't have a conclusion. I don't now whos to blame or whats going to happen. but thats my two cents
 

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I'm not sure the ESTJ wold have staged this, but she seems to have used it at least a little. It is worth noting that her texts were not really pleas for help, but in fact accusations and statements of blame - and that she did not go to anyone she considered a friend for support, but lashed out at someone she disliked.

&Certainly some manipulation was going on before - and if the ESFP has a stubborn bent, she might deliberately 'fail' these manipulative tests - as talon suggested in the birthday scenario. The suicide texts could be seen as the old 'make a cruel accusation and expect you to disprove it' passive-aggressive ploy, rather than a suicide threat ,which is never fair and the ESFP saw that and chose not to fall for it, not realising how far ESTJ would actually go.

I hope she makes it clearer herself when you talk. Luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Honestly? I'm actually feeling sorry for the ESFP now.
I know she's a friend of mine but that's only because she isolated me before after a small disagreement and when I tried to make new friends she started rumours and she started treating me horribly then nobody wanted to hang out with me so I now I'm hanging out with her in school because I don't want to be isolated. This went on for nearly a year. Her and my ex even text my mother and told her I was a lesbian, they pretended to get our numbers mixed up. I hadn't text them in weeks, next thing my mother gets this message "Yeah, she said she wants to fuck you Aideen, the hotel is only 15 euro a night, it's beside temple bar" or something like that.

When I lost someone she couldn't make the time to see me when I really needed someone to talk to, I had nobody else because of her previous manipulation towards isolating me. She started talking about it with me, then after I thought "few, I hate talking about this with family, I enjoy talking things out with this person, it really helps" she didn't show up, left me in town by myself. I thought "right okay, she won't do this again" she kept saying we could talk about it the whole Summer, I'd be happy just to see her and have a friend but she ditched me every time. I made new friends this Summers though (Jojo included lol). She's not a nice person and she can be extremely cold, once she's not exposed to the public. She can be quite mature at times though, she's just a very malicious person.

The ESTJ, I think, is far more innocent than this ESFP. She may be rude and she may've done some cruel stuff like testing, she's just insensitive. Obviously she's dealing with some crap beyond the girly drama, I don't think we should completely side with the ESFP. She just happened to be texting the ESFP about the fight and then because of her unhealthiness mentioned wanting to die, being useless etc and after seeing the ESFP wasn't replying decided her life really was unworthy. I don't think she meant to put all the blame on the ESFP, she just so happened to be talking to her and got ignored when she mentioned how worthless she was then had that idea reinforced. I haven't read the suicide letter, but Jojo told me she never mentioned the ESFP once. It's easier to understand things from the ESFP's angle. I think from the ESTJs angle, she didn't even care about the ESFP much, she probably never thought it would look like the ESFP was being blamed just like the ESFP didn't think the ESTJ was talking about suicide.Maybe the ESTJ just wanted to see what the ESFP thought about this horrible unforgivable thing she did. A lot of miscommunication could've been avoided if Ms ESFP had just said something. This is why it's extremely rude to ignore anyone. The ESTJ was in a vunerable position, the worse person she could've been texting was the ESFP. The ESTJ isn't someone who gets involved in this girly drama like the ESFP.

Btw, Talon, the ESTJ isn't dead. My family got a call last night saying she was in a critical state, which was surprising, we thought she'd was okay now and we got her on time. I went up to see her, she's my first cousin but I don't know her well at all, I didn't know I'd actually be up there with her. I have to tell you I was heart broken, I really want to know what caused all this.
 

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It would seem that in order for a person to cause that much injury to herself, something that she was experiencing was bothering her more. She considered something in her life worse than bleeding to death (or almost to death.) If it is true that whatever was bothering her was, by her internal evaluation system, more troubling than having her wrists cut open and being left to die in an abandoned building, it means that the pain must have been pretty extreme, whether the attempted suicide was meant to be vengeful, communicative, desperate, or real. Regardless of the reasons, ignoring her mention of it was irresponsible and insensitive on the part of the other individual involved unless that person really was confused by previous drama, which is possible.

It is especially uncommon for an ESTJ to reveal any weakness or pain, or to admit that she is suffering. I'm not sure if the usual patterns for ESTJ behavior apply to this individual, but if she is like the ones I have known, even the slightest mention of feeling the desire to die was probably like admitting defeat or broadcasting her inferiority. It seems like an unlikely way to "gain control" when it runs counter to the most natural methods used by Te types for establishing dominance. Most ESTJs seem to place a lot of value in never allowing themselves to be vulnerable around other people. Such warning signs should have definitely been taken more seriously. I guess I can sort of see why a person would be suspicious with insincere testing going on, but still...
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
It would seem that in order for a person to cause that much injury to herself, something that she was experiencing was bothering her more. She considered something in her life worse than bleeding to death (or almost to death.) If it is true that whatever was bothering her was, by her internal evaluation system, more troubling than having her wrists cut open and being left to die in an abandoned building, it means that the pain must have been pretty extreme, whether the attempted suicide was meant to be vengeful, communicative, desperate, or real. Regardless of the reasons, ignoring her mention of it was irresponsible and insensitive on the part of the other individual involved.

It is especially uncommon for an ESTJ to reveal any weakness or pain, or to admit that she is suffering. I'm not sure if the usual patterns for ESTJ behavior apply to this individual, but if she is like the ones I have known, even the slightest mention of feeling the desire to die was probably like admitting defeat or broadcasting her inferiority. Most ESTJs seem to place a lot of value in never allowing themselves to be vulnerable around other people. Such warning signs should have definitely been taken more seriously.
That's the way I see it.

It's definitely not like her. She's a very strong catholic, too and she's not afraid to tell you what she thinks of sex before marriage, gay marriage (which is the reason I don't hang out with her), so I'm assuming she'd have the same view of suicide. Yet she lost that part of herself as well. Everyone in the waiting room was saying how they didn't expect this, how she was always so strong and happy and she had plenty of friends she never fought with much etc etc.
 

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I know she's a friend of mine but that's only because she isolated me before after a small disagreement and when I tried to make new friends she started rumours and she started treating me horribly then nobody wanted to hang out with me so I now I'm hanging out with her in school because I don't want to be isolated. This went on for nearly a year. Her and my ex even text my mother and told her I was a lesbian, they pretended to get our numbers mixed up. I hadn't text them in weeks, next thing my mother gets this message "Yeah, she said she wants to fuck you Aideen, the hotel is only 15 euro a night, it's beside temple bar" or something like that.

When I lost someone she couldn't make the time to see me when I really needed someone to talk to, I had nobody else because of her previous manipulation towards isolating me. She started talking about it with me, then after I thought "few, I hate talking about this with family, I enjoy talking things out with this person, it really helps" she didn't show up, left me in town by myself. I thought "right okay, she won't do this again" she kept saying we could talk about it the whole Summer, I'd be happy just to see her and have a friend but she ditched me every time. I made new friends this Summers though (Jojo included lol). She's not a nice person and she can be extremely cold, once she's not exposed to the public. She can be quite mature at times though, she's just a very malicious person.

The ESTJ, I think, is far more innocent than this ESFP. She may be rude and she may've done some cruel stuff like testing, she's just insensitive. Obviously she's dealing with some crap beyond the girly drama, I don't think we should completely side with the ESFP. She just happened to be texting the ESFP about the fight and then because of her unhealthiness mentioned wanting to die, being useless etc and after seeing the ESFP wasn't replying decided her life really was unworthy. I don't think she meant to put all the blame on the ESFP, she just so happened to be talking to her and got ignored when she mentioned how worthless she was then had that idea reinforced. I haven't read the suicide letter, but Jojo told me she never mentioned the ESFP once. It's easier to understand things from the ESFP's angle. I think from the ESTJs angle, she didn't even care about the ESFP much, she probably never thought it would look like the ESFP was being blamed just like the ESFP didn't think the ESTJ was talking about suicide.Maybe the ESTJ just wanted to see what the ESFP thought about this horrible unforgivable thing she did. A lot of miscommunication could've been avoided if Ms ESFP had just said something. This is why it's extremely rude to ignore anyone. The ESTJ was in a vunerable position, the worse person she could've been texting was the ESFP. The ESTJ isn't someone who gets involved in this girly drama like the ESFP.

Btw, Talon, the ESTJ isn't dead. My family got a call last night saying she was in a critical state, which was surprising, we thought she'd was okay now and we got her on time. I went up to see her, she's my first cousin but I don't know her well at all, I didn't know I'd actually be up there with her. I have to tell you I was heart broken, I really want to know what caused all this.

o__________O

Sorry my N might be crossing the line here..But I feel perhaps you should find better friends. (Especially better than the ESFP)

I don't feel that they are very healthy people in your life and you deserve better. I'm not sure it's just my feeling :unsure: Sorry if it's wrong.

I just sense too much drama and manipulation going on, and you (based on how you talk about this story) appear genuine in trying to make things right. But I wonder if they take your feelings into consideration.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
o__________O

Sorry my N might be crossing the line here..But I feel perhaps you should find better friends. (Especially better than the ESFP)

I don't feel that they are very healthy people in your life and you deserve better. I'm not sure it's just my feeling :unsure: Sorry if it's wrong.

I just sense too much drama and manipulation going on, and you (based on how you talk about this story) appear genuine in trying to make things right. But I wonder if they take your feelings into consideration.
I have tried to make new friends, but when I did I got isolated because my friends at school are rather popular. When they stop speaking to me, everyone else does. When I stop hanging out with them, everyone avoids me because then I'm a loner. I have tried, for nearly a whole year. It was easier over the Summer making new friends, but they don't go to my school. Even Jojo's only in my school for work experience, she's taking care of the library.

I'd rather be friends with these people, I only have like 7-8 months left of school, I'd much rather be friends with them than be alone. I usually stay the hell away from the drama the ESFP starts. But when my cousin gets involved and when the consequences are like this, I'm not sure if I can stand being friends with the ESFP, but this thread has helped me look at things from the ESFP's point of view, which definitely helps my role in all this.
 

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I have tried to make new friends, but when I did I got isolated because my friends at school are rather popular. When they stop speaking to me, everyone else does. When I stop hanging out with them, everyone avoids me because then I'm a loner. I have tried, for nearly a whole year. It was easier over the Summer making new friends, but they don't go to my school. Even Jojo's only in my school for work experience, she's taking care of the library.

I'd rather be friends with these people, I only have like 7-8 months left of school, I'd much rather be friends with them than be alone. I usually stay the hell away from the drama the ESFP starts. But when my cousin gets involved and when the consequences are like this, I'm not sure if I can stand being friends with the ESFP, but this thread has helped me look at things from the ESFP's point of view, which definitely helps my role in all this.
I hope you can cope well with it though. Sorry, it sounds as if you have a few inconsiderate, drama seeking friends who are not real friends at all.

I used to want desperately to belong too, especially when I was studying in a foreign country far away from home (Will study there again for 2011/2012 intake anyway). However, at this point of my life now, I'd rather be alone in certain social settings than have friends like that.

Wouldn't you feel better if you stood up for yourself?

I don't mean to sound critical, sorry. Obviously I don't know much about you and the situation, so sorry if I'm being critical/ insensitive/ misunderstanding.

But if you have to survive one more year alone in school just because you want to stand up for yourself and find your own way instead of potentially getting yourself down because of bad peers, I won't judge you. We just can't please everyone.
 
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