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Discussion Starter #1
I guess other types could have input here, but my guess would be Te has some interest or informed opinions on this? Has Sweden figured out a balance other nations should copy?

I'm wondering about an Anti-American or aniti- capitalism trend and if we in the US will need to make drastic reforms. It seems like Sweden would be weakening familial ties because the State is becoming the care-taker for the young and the old. Although, Sweden's functionality is showing what they do to be working?

I'm also wondering about what seems like creativity blooming in Canada, because they don't worry about basic healthcare? A popular idea seems to be circling that people work because they want to contribute (not money) and to some extent you see this in science and art. For myself though, I don't think I want to see a business contract replaced with a social contract (like being in High School over again). I mean business and money has a way of helping to create organizing motivation - not the motivation itself but a financial contract is clear and I wouldn't want that method of negotiation to become a thing of the past.
 

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Uh, you're not really being specific enough on why you think this is a good idea. You're trying to promote controlled economies? (socialism)

Then you're saying sweden is a prime example of balance, even though the economy faces deflation problems and debt? Sweden and the US are completely different economies, they will never be similar; and cannot operate in a similar fashion. You can't change this (without doing a lot of damage).

Creativity is fine in the united states, considering the amount of innovation that comes out of the country every year I'm surprised you bring this up. Look at kickstarter, some of the things on that are absolutely fantastic.

Money isn't designed to just be an incentive. If you don't want to use money, start a farm and grow your own produce, and generate your own electricity; but you'll find it's far more efficient to allocate time to collecting money and just paying a third party.

Money is far more efficient and time saving than you would think it is. It's extremely beneficial to individuals, and of course people are going to have to contribute to society to have a functional economy. Productivity drives growth and keeps the american lifestyle so high, by not providing a reason to contribute, it may actually slow or deflate the economy.

Believe me, Bill clinton was right when he said "It's the economy stupid". There's no right answer to whether america should be a mixed economy, socialist or capitalist; but capitalism seems to be doing a good job of keeping the US in the world leaders. Without money, and without business or incentive, american lifestyle would be dramatically different, because the US is built on capitalistic nature.
 
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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I'm agreeing with you basically but re-thinking or wondering about how capitalism is effected with a glut of products, low differentiation, and possible end of Moore's law, finite resources, having seen popular theories circulating about how we could live in utopia with a redistribution of wealth - etc.

One of these Utopian ideas is that people would be more productive if they are not competing for survival. I would believe this is an unreasonable way to think, untill I look at how the internet was initially a government program, and rules like HTML5 came about by consensus and cooperation instead of competition.

I happened to catch a video about Sweden and have off an on seen articles of how capitalism is thriving even with high taxes. Obama's comments about childcare seem to go along with the Swedish idea - equal pay for women and nationally subsidized child care (the video was showing elder care programs and the US will be facing the same aging baby boomer problems).

I was surprised they have the voucher-thing for education, which seems to be viewed as a far left idea here in US.

I don't think Sweden thinks of itself as socialist (pro capitalist, with a few strong social programs geared toward building employ-ability is what they call it?). They think they have found a third alternative, but I realize this would be easier to do in a smaller country too.

My comment about creativity was triggered by the idea of how companies are making time for employees to do a project just because they want to - figured into the work schedule. This appeals to my Ne and the fast pace emergent nature of tech right now - You can't know what will make money until you get into something and stir it up.
 

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Well for one, I'm going to draw some references for this conversation:

3.2 THE USA ECONOMY

The American economy is a free enterprise system, characterized by private ownership of the means of production. The decisions of millions of households and firms determines the nature of production, the patter of resource allocation and distribution of income. Despite this, the government does play an interventionalist role in the economy that alters the composition of output, redirects resources and redistributes income. The economy is classified as a mixed economy.

3.0 (c) MODIFIED MARKET (or mixed) ECONOMIES

Modified market or mixed economies are characterized by:
1. Decisions are made by market participants, with little intervention of governments. The intervention that does exist, is justified on the grounds of improving resource allocation as well as improving competition. Taxation and government spending is less than in a welfare state economy.
2. predominantly private ownership of productive assets but some state ownership which is minimal.
3. price is rationing device with little government intervention (minimum wage, fixed prices)

Now with the above information we can deduce:
- The US economy is successful through the production and activity of US participants
- State ownership is minimized, to prevent "crowding out"
- The US economy is fixated on competition, and seeks out a competitive environment, which is considered a vital factor. Government intervention, is justified on the grounds of competitive advantage.

America seeks out competition intentionally? Why, because it's a long held belief that competitive nature drives innovation and productivity. Similar to survival of the fittest, it's believed that through having an extremely competitive environment that people will work or innovate at optimal levels.

Over the last 100 years, the US has maintained position as the financial "hub" of the world, and has been the leading economy. You can take hand in hand that the people who have this belief have a justified reason for it, because Americas success over many years has been a result of consecutive innovation decade after decade. If it's from technology, transport, finance, or enterprise; the US has consecutively innovated.

With this said, America is considered a "Laissez faire" economy, though it has a large government intervention, you can assume that any intervention there is, would be on the grounds of necessary; as many US citizens and the US government have a strong defensive nature towards maintaining "freedom" or "laissez faire". With that said, your suggesting of increasing wealth equality and distribution is simply a matter of changing features in a majority of AES (Automatic Economic Stabilizers) such as raising tax brackets, removing places people can avoid taxes. Over the last 10 years, there's been much more effort towards economic redistribution, but you also have to remember that this is purely a result of the "capital accumulation" effect. It occurs in socialism too, but is curbed significantly. This is both incentive and problematic for society.

Today, the US economy is still considered extremely competitive. If you want a social economic problem to poke at, look into the "Automation of jobs". I don't think capitalism is a problem you should be looking at, but the redundancy of millions of jobs is better for fear mongering.
 
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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Let me just interupt one thing before I read more. Yes socialism means public ownership of production but that is not what is happening in Sweden - People react to buzz words like socialism, I'm looking at mechanics of specific situations.

Okay, I finished reading. I've made my living primarily because of competition (I'm in advertising)
I'm not cutting down the system or demonizing anybody, I'm just wondering if we are running out of ways to expand so that middle class job proportion of the past will ever come back.

I look at the partisanship extremes and think neither the right or left have answers.

What are you saying about automation of jobs?
 

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@Old Intern

Okay, there's multiple types of controlled economies. Sweden is a "Welfare State Economy"

3.0 (b) Welfare State Economies

Welfare state economies are characterized by:
1. Decision making by market participants but with significant government intervention in the economy to alter the pattern of income distribution. A significant proportion of government outlays is directed at the provision of social services like heath, education, pensions etc. This requires high average taxes on income and government spending is a major means of income distribution.
2. Predominantly private ownership of productive assets but with some state ownership especially in the provision of goods and services which may not yield profits. (railways)
3. Price is the main rationing device. Price reflects consumer preferences and serve as signals for changes in resource allocation. Some prices are regulated by the government.

Still is much closer to socialism than it is to capitalism, as it's a form of controlled economy.

I should have been more specific. Sweden is not socialist, it's a controlled economy. Closer to the Nordic model. I'm just referring to the socialism - capitalism dichotomy because I'm lazy and for brevity.
 
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Excellent video. Although computers are awesome when highly specialized, actual brain power at the moment, computers are like fruit flies. I mean we have a way to go to replicate a human brain. Part of the question is how much improvement and abundance can we put to use?

This is what I was getting at about Moore's law and creativity. The old cliche about the rising tide lifting all boats - used to be true. As long as efficiency is making big improvement, and growth is exponential, with more room at the top, this should mean the cutting edge high end makes the older stuff cheap, more wide spread and produces jobs at the middle. Even with a lot of re-training and saying computers won't replace programmers and app builders - how many more gadgets change the world in ways that move humans to a higher level of capacity?

Capitalism could have out mode-ed itself? We don't have enough customers. When I spoke of Canadian creativity, I wonder if they are making a place for the small-time artist. If you are going to be the guy who pioneers Facebook, you won't be from a third world country but you could be in America, or a million other places.

I hate the sound of people whining about income inequality, but from my own experience, you reach a point where the local retailer or restaurant or car dealer, might not make it because not enough people "in the neighborhood" have jobs; and then that makes somebody like me (advertising) at a local level, - somebody who will need to make a major shift too.

What computers don't do is build relationships, but my life sucks if day to day survival hangs on "high school" politics.
I liked problem solving - negotiation and strategy. I hate the idea if life becomes about how to get likes on Facebook - shit.
Sure, you can say this is a strategy too, but c'mon - people wearing green lipstick and bathing in a bowl of cheerios is what we define as productive now! Capitalism says so, helping people procrastinate and be distracted with crazy stuff is what we want to pay for - or porn maybe.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Okay I was being a whiner, took a look at the frootloops green lipstick interview with the President.

Not that I would want to subscribe to most of what seems to be on her channel but compared to my own lame experimenting so far, she is producing a product. Quite a bit went into the presentation she does, even if I don't generally get grabbed by her content. That being said, I still don't want to think the only marketplace for US upward mobile middle class is entertainment based. And everyone else will be a small cog in government work - or three jobs in fast food (and not that if min wage goes up like in Seattle)?

I just look at content being created and panic if frootloops girl has it right?

Supposedly there has never been a better time for freelancers.
Is this because we ARE moving toward a Nordic model here in the US?

on a related note - Canada
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgdontario/sets/72157647857123414/#
 
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