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Sx/So vs. Sx/Sp (to the death?)

54K views 96 replies 35 participants last post by  Dangerose 
#1 · (Edited)
(This was a comment of mine on another site, but I decided to post it here for discussion.)


Note: These are relative comparisons and they are exaggerated for comparative clarity.



1. Freedom
Sx/Sp's believe in freedom. And they don't just believe in it as an abstract concept, but in reality. They don't want to be held down, confined, restricted, or contained. But then there's the problem of their siren, their drug, their love...an Sx/Sp would sell their soul to merge with their object of desire (be it a person, idea, or whatever). They will tirelessly fight off all other chains placed on them, but they will willingly don the handcuffs binding them to their love. The Sx/Sp ideal is to run away with their love and leave all the world behind.

Sx/So's will not do this. Freedom is too precious to surrender, even to the object of their deepest affection. The Sx/So ideal is not to run away but to stand and fight, tearing down the walls and breaking all chains. Their siren, their drug, their love...this is the greatest chain of them all. They have a strong desire to merge and yet are compelled to at least put up a token resistance.



2. Means to an End
The Sx/Sp places their hopes for fulfillment of their primary instinct (and ultimately, their survival) in their personal qualities and attributes: attractiveness, charisma, skills, abilities, success, wealth, status, etc. When things don't work out, this can leave an Sx/Sp feeling self-conscious. This gives Sx/Sp's an aire of self absorption and, in some cases, fatalism.

The Sx/So places these hopes in their cunning, cleverness, and ability to make the right choices and decisions. When things don't work out, an Sx/So may wonder what they could have done differently to have more success. This makes Sx/So's come off as enterprising masters of their own destiny.

Let's take seduction as an example: an Sx/Sp focuses on seeming desirable and attractive, an Sx/So focuses on saying the right things and acting the right way.



3. Romantic Relationships
Both Sexual types exhibit a push-and-pull dynamic. The Sx/Sp's version of this is the classic iteration: intense, passionate desire suddenly becomes too intense and Sx/Sp pulls away to protect themselves, only to have the desire return again.

The Sx/So push-and-pull is an internal one: drawn in with some hesitation, drawn closer, maybe pull back a little, still drawn in. It doesn't look as extreme as the Sx/Sp dynamic because the Sx/So doesn't completely surrender to their desire.

As a result, an Sx/Sp is going to be more all-or-none in relationships, either on out on the sand or drowning in the depths...possibly bouncing back-and-forth between the two with the tides. An Sx/So will be more balanced and stable in their relationships, preferring to wade in the shallows.

Additionally, an Sx/So has a much greater problem with partners that seem clingy or smothering. This is encroaches too greatly on their freedom. An Sx/Sp won't have a problem with this in itself (and may even like it); their greater concern is the desirability of their partner. Extreme closeness with a confident and secure partner is Sx/Sp heaven, with an insecure partner it's hell.
 
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#2 ·
I'll be honest I felt a lot of kinship with the descriptions of the Sx/Sp variant, I am not sure if this is just because I am a 4 or not though. This could simply be 4 likeness crossing over. 4's may experience things differently then some of the other types.

Sx/So's will not do this. Freedom is too precious to surrender, even to the object of their deepest affection. The Sx/So ideal is not to run away but to stand and fight, tearing down the walls and breaking all chains. Their siren, their drug, their love...this is the greatest chain of them all. They have a strong desire to merge and yet are compelled to at least put up a token resistance.
I don't know if I necessarily agree with this. I think in terms of my sexual variant I want complete immersion at all times into my other or my creation and I am willing to become one with it because then it will inadvertently become me. I think that's the reason why I need the immersion and the merging because I need control of the experience and I need to feel that I can have access to the power and bond from the experience I am apart of. I don't want to feel separate from it because then I am not truly apart of it and cannot effect things with it. I need for it to become me and for me to become it.

I think the subject of individuality or more accurately autonomy is an important one though. I actually do think I would give myself up to merge with my sexual desire, but I also believe that I would become resentful as well because it would eventually stop me from experiencing other things. If it was a person I would wonder if it was true unconditional love if they forced me to give up something simply to be with them and that resentment would build because I am not a possession and I cannot be owned. We can be together as one, as a unit but at that same time I never want limitations in my experiences and I would never dream of limiting my other from having those same experiences. That's not love.

Let's take seduction as an example: an Sx/Sp focuses on seeming desirable and attractive, an Sx/So focuses on saying the right things and acting the right way.
I disagree. I think the bolded comes across all sexual variants regardless of the second energy. Sexual types need to be attractive (or believe they are) in order to attract a mate. I imagine So types too would want to be attractive as their attractiveness would make their rank in the community more important.


The Sx/So push-and-pull is an internal one: drawn in with some hesitation, drawn closer, maybe pull back a little, still drawn in. It doesn't look as extreme as the Sx/Sp dynamic because the Sx/So doesn't completely surrender to their desire.
I agree with this to an extent. I think by the time I was in a relationship I wanted to be in I was already emotionally there. Then the person did something I didn't like, I pulled away just to see if it would matter to them and if they would notice. The token expression was that I was really angry or asserting some kind of independence. When in reality I was already made vulnerable and was already tied in and committed. I would also say that all or nothing tendencies could probably be applicable to all sexual sub types regardless.

Additionally, an Sx/So has a much greater problem with partners that seem clingy or smothering. This is encroaches too greatly on their freedom.
Yes. Although I am not sure how 2's might see this. But this is a huge deal for me. I would much rather be wanted, desired and longed for rather then be needed. That sends the impression that I owe something, have a responsibility or am in some way indebted to the person because they feel they can't be without me and I don't like having to deal with those expectations, feelings or emotions.
 
#3 ·
I need the immersion and the merging because I need control of the experience and I need to feel that I can have access to the power and bond from the experience I am apart of.
This is the difference I am talking about here: Sx/So does not want to relinquish control but instead wants to channel and ride the energy. Sx/Sp wants to let go and be consumed by it.



I think the subject of individuality or more accurately autonomy is an important one though. I actually do think I would give myself up to merge with my sexual desire, but I also believe that I would become resentful as well because it would eventually stop me from experiencing other things. If it was a person I would wonder if it was true unconditional love if they forced me to give up something simply to be with them and that resentment would build because I am not a possession and I cannot be owned. We can be together as one, as a unit but at that same time I never want limitations in my experiences and I would never dream of limiting my other from having those same experiences. That's not love.
Love does place limitations on experiences. It doesn't do so directly, but it absolutely does so in an opportunity cost sort of way because there are many things you'll miss out on. Also, their love for you may not directly limit you, but your love for them will. If you really love someone, you will be conscious of and concerned about their needs. Attending to these needs places great limits on your experiences (ex. time, resources, fidelity, loyalty, energy, etc.). How do you feel about these limitations?



I disagree. I think the bolded comes across all sexual variants regardless of the second energy. Sexual types need to be attractive (or believe they are) in order to attract a mate.
Both types will want to be seductive through both image and behavior when trying to attract a mate, but I'm talking about which they ultimately see as the biggest difference-maker in whether or not it turns out well. Why did that girl reject me, was it because of my clothes and hair or because of what I said to her? (And relatedly, should I focus on dressing better or picking more charming topics of conversation?) Does that other girl like me because I'm friendly, interesting, and a good listener or because of my raw charisma, looks, and sense of humor?



I agree with this to an extent. I think by the time I was in a relationship I wanted to be in I was already emotionally there. Then the person did something I didn't like, I pulled away just to see if it would matter to them and if they would notice. The token expression was that I was really angry or asserting some kind of independence. When in reality I was already made vulnerable and was already tied in and committed. I would also say that all or nothing tendencies could probably be applicable to all sexual sub types regardless.
This is more of that Sx/So offering of a token resistance in order to seem like you are in control. Sx/Sp tends to give in more and then pull away more...and sometimes rinse, repeat ad infinitum.



Yes. Although I am not sure how 2's might see this. But this is a huge deal for me. I would much rather be wanted, desired and longed for rather then be needed. That sends the impression that I owe something, have a responsibility or am in some way indebted to the person because they feel they can't be without me and I don't like having to deal with those expectations, feelings or emotions.
I get an entirely different feeling from someone needing me. I don't feel a greater burden or greater stress. Their feelings and expectations don't trouble me either. I just find a partner with major insecurities very unattractive and unexciting. They just don't seem vibrant and full of the intense, exhilarating energy of an excited, optimistic, enthusiastic, and confident partner. I want to soar in the clouds; consequently, I'm attracted to a spirit like a hot air balloon, not a lead anchor.
 
#4 ·
I'm not sure what I think about this. Keep in mind that different enneagram types in and of themselves have different motivations in life. A sx/so type 3 like myself will not necessarily act or treat relationships the exact same way as say a sx/so type 9 would. How someone with a variant stacking will act does depend on his type in my opinion. There will be some broad similarities between people of different types that share the same variant stacking, yes, but I don't believe you mentioned those broad similarities. It's not easy to simplify it in the manner in which you tried to simplify it. I personally do not really identify with sx/so description you provided. In some ways, it could pass, but for the most part... meh.

Issue 1: I give my partner everything I've got. I do immerse myself in the relationship fully, and I'm not afraid of missing out on anything. What could be greater than having one loyal, binding friendship to last the test of time? And, I hate to break it to you, but sx/sp people also have walls and can be quite resistant.


Issue 2: I don't like every close person in my life to be a clinger, but I have no problem with being around a partner who wants to give me most of his/her time. I enjoy that time and crave it. Who better to share most of your time with than your partner in crime? :p


Issue 3: I very much so have an all-or-nothing attitude, but that has nothing to do with lack of stability in the relationship. I think it actually makes the bond stronger. I need intensity, I need communication, I need honesty, and I need trust. Give me your everything because I will give you my everything. It is only fair that my partner gives me his all since I give my all. I give exactly what I want to get in this aspect. Giving it your all is the epitomy of dedication.
 
#5 ·
Issue 1: I give my partner everything I've got. I do immerse myself in the relationship fully, and I'm not afraid of missing out on anything. What could be greater than having one loyal, binding friendship to last the test of time?
Issue 3: I very much so have an all-or-nothing attitude, but that has nothing to do with lack of stability in the relationship. I think it actually makes the bond stronger. I need intensity, I need communication, I need honesty, and I need trust. Give me your everything because I will give you my everything. It is only fair that my partner gives me his all since I give my all. I give exactly what I want to get in this aspect. Giving it your all is the epitomy of dedication.
I'm talking about losing yourself so much in the merging that you lose your sense of self, even your convictions. Tell me you'd ever lose your convictions in a relationship or in a cause.



And, I hate to break it to you, but sx/sp people also have walls and can be quite resistant.
I explicitly discussed the push-and-pull behavior of Sx/Sp's. This is so pronounced because of how alarming it can be to experience losing oneself to such an extent so suddenly.
 
#9 ·
sx/so: careless, exhibitionistic, against the norm, hot and cold, interested in and likes to connect everything to extremes: rich and poor, life and death, beautiful and ugly etc, doesn't like things that are average or in balance
sx/sp(compared to sx/so): more composed, needs more security/comfort, more materialistic, more introverted, more precise

it all depends of emneagram and the strenght of the variants of course
 
#11 ·
Wow, did you write this yourself? This is really good! I can't speak for people of the sx/so stacking, but for me as an sx/sp it was very accurate.

A few things didn't apply to me - I still honestly don't understand the "push-pull" dynamic. I tend to just pull. :p But most of it really resonated with me, especially this:

Additionally, an Sx/So has a much greater problem with partners that seem clingy or smothering. This is encroaches too greatly on their freedom. An Sx/Sp won't have a problem with this in itself (and may even like it); their greater concern is the desirability of their partner. Extreme closeness with a confident and secure partner is Sx/Sp heaven, with an insecure partner it's hell.
Yes! Oh gosh, thank goodness for the enneagram. I feel like sx/sp isn't a very common stacking because before reading about this stuff, I had no idea why hardly anyone seemed to view relationships the same way I did. I do not mind clingy or smothering people at all. In fact, I actually prefer clingy people, and I like being smothered. An sx/sp 7 or 8 probably wouldn't feel the same way, though - my guess is that would mostly apply to 2s and some 4s.

I've had hardly any relationship experience unfortunately (I am shy and my social skills = nope), but from what little I've had this seems to ring true for me.

You know, though? I don't really mind insecure partners. I want to be the one who can lift them up and show them just how amazing they truly are. Just so long as they let me in - I don't like it when people are too guarded.

Thanks for posting this :)
 
#12 ·
@ImminentThunder

I disagree.. I'm an Sx/Sp 4w5 and I do mind the clinginess and smothering. It's a huge turn off for me and tends to drive me away. I like my partner to be independent, for him to have his own life/interests/friends. There's nothing worse than someone who only lives for you, has no interest or thought besides you. It makes me feel suffocated.

At the same time, I'm very driven by the need to merge with this person, to know everything about them and understand their inner workings, to figure out what makes them tick, to uncover them basically. It's like a need that I have to fulfill. Because of this constant struggle between my Sx and Sp, I'm very conflicted and I constantly oscillate between both.

I'm pretty sure I'm not an Sx/So, lol.
 
#16 ·
@ImminentThunderI disagree.. I'm an Sx/Sp 4w5 and I do mind the clinginess and smothering. It's a huge turn off for me and tends to drive me away. I like my partner to be independent, for him to have his own life/interests/friends. There's nothing worse than someone who only lives for you, has no interest or thought besides you. It makes me feel suffocated.At the same time, I'm very driven by the need to merge with this person, to know everything about them and understand their inner workings, to figure out what makes them tick, to uncover them basically. It's like a need that I have to fulfill. Because of this constant struggle between my Sx and Sp, I'm very conflicted and I constantly oscillate between both. I'm pretty sure I'm not an Sx/So, lol.
Not telling you your stacking, but this seems more 4w5 sp/sx to me. I thought I was sx/sp as well, but the issues you have that you articulated so well are precisely what made me decide on sp/sx instead. All fours want merging and intensity and are romantic, especially if sx is in their stacking. But wanting your space is a clear indication that your self-pres needs come first. I need a lot of closeness and I love that my husband adores me, but I have an off switch, when I start to feel like it's 'too much'. I think you will see a lot more push/pull with the sp/sx 4w5. We love our time alone and space with dashes of intensity- that intensity can take over when you fall in love, but I think a sx/sp will revel in it more. Honestly as much of a rush as it gives me it also scares the hell out of me. I don't like feeling like I need someone that badly.
 
#13 ·
@kaleidoscope, thanks for your insight! Maybe that was just more of a "me" thing as opposed to something that has to do with my personality type. Hmm.

Or maybe I'm just unhealthy, lol.
 
#14 ·
As an ENTP 8 sx/sp, I prefer the clinginess, I can take care of my partner and myself, if my partner needs me for their own emotional support all the time it just shows me that they view me as competent enough to satisfy their needs.

All in all though I agree with everything except the push pull method also, I also just like to keep pulling, but that could be due to being an 8 and loving the intensity through lust.
 
#15 ·
I don't mind what I think many would call clinginess when it's coming from someone I genuinely like. If I felt the person was using me out of some sort of compulsion rooted in insecurity or fear then that would be different. I think the motives are clear enough when they're before you. I love emotional and physical closeness when it's mutual and sincere. I haven't really experienced it, but I believe in it. I've felt smothered before, but only because I didn't genuinely like the other person and felt something was off. It's easy for me to sense when somebody is unhealthy. Still I think what I see as very normal, other variants misinterpret, discount, cheapen. That's partly why I enjoy instinctual variants. It's validating when you've been alone with your intense needs, but know you aren't unreasonable or unhealthy (well… no more so than anyone else). Anyway, I personally need more intensity, merging and focused energy than the other variants seem to have shown me they're capable of. I think sx/sp is a rare stacking. It has been hard to find others out in the world.
 
#17 ·
@brainheart

Oh I have considered Sp/Sx, but this convinced me that I was an Sx-dom:

Sx/Sp's are a little more out there with their energy and the "switch" for them is when the pull back rather than move forward.
Apparently, the difference between Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx is that the former's switch is to pull back while their "default" mode is to pursue, while Sp/Sx's switch lies in when they're drawn towards someone or something, and they have to step out of their comfort zone in order to follow this "pull" they feel towards something external.

I've always considered myself an Sx-dom because of how much I'm looking outside of myself for that ideal person/situation/idea/project that will somehow "complete" me (though I'm aware that this is also a Four thing). I'm not self-sufficient, and this is why I'm restless and constantly on the look-out. So maybe my need to remain independent is due to being a midrange Sx/Sp:

sx/sp mystifier (midrange) - the range where the mystique of the sx/sp stack is at its strongest. unconsciously attracts with intense eye contact and other sx feelers, but holds back enough to give them a kind of untouchable or hard to get close to quality. depending on their true intentions this can either frustrate their sx or reward their functional sp cooling system. like midrangers of all stacks, there's a seemingly casual approach to meeting their variant needs as the secondary instinct is kept both in play and at bay, and others may wonder what they really want.
I feel this applies to me, but I also looked into Sp/Sx with a strong Sx:

sp/sx decadent (strong sx) - sp at its most saturated with sx; self-attending ways are offset by a wilder outgoing streak, reaching outside themselves then pulling back. noticable 'sx-y' quality, often enough to pass for sx first.

Anyway, I'm still open to suggestions so do let me know what you think :)
 
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#18 ·
@kaleidoscope, it's a tricky thing to figure out for sure. I've had moments where sx has for sure led in my life, but I think (as far as I go) it's safe to say that sp/sx is primarily how I navigate when you look at the whole scope of my life, that when I'm in a sexual leading place it gets me excited but I really want to return to something a little more mellow, a little safer. That said, my sp and sx are very close. And it is really difficult to disengage the sexual instinct from the core four because they have a lot in common...

Those two descriptions from the typewatch are the ones I related to the most as well. Interesting-
 
#19 ·
@kaleidoscope, it's a tricky thing to figure out for sure. I've had moments where sx has for sure led in my life, but I think (as far as I go) it's safe to say that sp/sx is primarily how I navigate when you look at the whole scope of my life, that when I'm in a sexual leading place it gets me excited but I really want to return to something a little more mellow, a little safer. That said, my sp and sx are very close. And it is really difficult to disengage the sexual instinct from the core four because they have a lot in common...

Those two descriptions from the typewatch are the ones I related to the most as well. Interesting-
I see what you're saying, it is a pretty tricky thing for a core 4. Personally, I do feel like my main drive is Sx, and the Sp is just here to hold me back, much like emergency brakes. The way I see it, Sx just wants to raise the temperature in a room indefinitely, and Sp is here as a thermostat, alerting me when things become too much. It acts like a temporary mediator, and once things have cooled off enough, my Sx is activated yet again. There's this constant fluctuating that's just exhausting sometimes :bored:


For an Sp/Sx, I imagine Sp would be wanting to maintain the temperature in the room at comfortable, mild degrees. While it may rise in bursts sometimes due to Sx, Sp always manages to contain it and bring it back to the initial level.
 
#93 · (Edited)
It's about time to tear apart the myth of clinginess. Just see how socials cling to their own group, with rigor and mindless conformism. Since you can't pathologize the masses, when they start acting out, it's automatically labeled as opening the valve, blowing the steam and by some unexplained magic, it's the carnival from the calendar that got advanced by 2 months...
But one also needs to pay attention to the small artifacts of their role-play and poker-faced interactions to notice their own self-deprecation into submission. Of how much they're willing to give up their own freedom of being themselves just to be loved back by the collective. And if the transaction works, then upgrade to full loyalty. Particles need to cling together, unless the bridge collapses under us. But when two individuals were to do it selfishly, when one is evidently part of the chain of "bridge," then that's desperate clinginess. And "anyways why don't you cling to someone else's bridge? Everyone belongs to everyone else; love is shared. Why are you so desperate to cling to me, don't you have some friends who have a firm and supportive network of other clingers? If they don't overlap with my bridge, then cling to them. Otherwise, sorry, I'm busy clinging desperately to my clingers and they only support strict interbreeding, there's no place for Romeos penetrating our circuit, our structure in the name of genetic diversity. And don't ever try to win me over if your clingers form a smaller capital, for our cause to cling is solemn and statuesque of a transcendental synergy. Group-Arbeit macht frei inside our Mass Ornament."
 
#22 ·
@brainheart

Yes exactly, that's why I was confused between Sx/Sp midrange and Sp/Sx midrange ^^ I think what's the distinguishing factor is the primary drive, the secondary one only serves it and is nowhere near as predominant behind a person's behavior.

What helped me figure it out, is looking back and realizing how much driven I am by this search for intimacy, bonding, merging, connection. I am nowhere near as concerned with my own comfort and basic needs, especially at first. They only start settling in after I've acquired the object of my desires, but even so, they're very faded and in the background, rather than a primary concern.
 
#23 ·
I remember someone posted once that Sx/Sp variants want to knock down all boundries, while Sx/So are more likely to just get keys to the doors and then lock the door behind them. I have to say I agree with this. I hate having barriers but I am very respectful of others boundaries and feel the need to uphold and protect peoples privacy. I need to be included and if that means excluding others to protect the feelings of others then I am fine with that. I wonder how others feel in the sexual variants feel about this?
 
#24 ·
Are you referring to this?

Sp/Sx's naturally construct barriers. Sometimes it's intentional but a lot of times it's without even thinking. Sx/Sp's hate barriers because they separate people, prevent merging, and buffer intensity. Sx/Sp's naturally seek to tear down barriers. As you can see, these types work against each other.

Interestingly, Sx/So's deal with barriers in a different manner. They like to find the keys to the locks. That way they can come and go as they please and shut and lock the door behind them. This goes over better with Sp/Sx's because letting the Sx/So in doesn't mean they have to let everyone else in too (like the Sx/Sp's behavior seems to demand of them). They can keep to what feels comfortable: choosing how close they will connect with people on an individual, case-by-case basis. The Sx/Sp wants to connect with everyone as closely as possible without restraint (though they can't actually handle this, so they end up exhibiting push-and-pull behavior).
I've heard this described elsewhere as "the sexual instinct flowing into the self preservation instinct in Sx/So" and "the sexual instinct flowing into the social instinct in Sx/Sp". There's a certain exclusivity within the bond between an Sx/So and his or her significant other. While their relationship is public knowledge, it's as if there is still some secret, a special bond between the two that others can only get the slightest glimpse of. With the Sx/Sp, it's as if their bond is turned face outwards, with the bond between the two pouring out into their other relationships and human interactions.

The flow currents are briefly discussed near the end of this article in the section on "Flow of Instinctual Energies".
Flow for Sx/So, So/Sp, and Sp/Sx: So -> Sx -> Sp -> So
Flow for Sx/Sp, Sp/So, and So/Sx: So <- Sx <- Sp <- So
 
#25 ·
I'd be interested in hearing if any sx/sp has experience dating an sx/so or vice versa. I have an sx/so friend and in social settings it becomes apparent we are be pulled in different directions (me going inwards and her moving further out and loving it). It paralyzes me a bit at times. Anyway, one-on-one, her energy keeps fuming out in different directions with incredibly frenetic moments and then quieter, focused ones. It has never been uncomfortable, but it makes me wonder how that would look in a relationship. The realm of Gods mixing with the realm of starving ghosts is a strange way of looking at it - the holy and undead. I imagine the sx/sp would feel a bit alienated. I read something by William LaFleur on gaki/hungry ghosts last year for a class and very much related. It's weird to find this out now about the relation to instinctual energies. I got a mix of strange looks and nervous laughter when I pensively mentioned I related to gaki in class.
 
#26 ·
This guy I had been on and off with and are distant friends right now, whatever that means, is variant Sx/So. I get really frustrated when I feel so close to him then all of a sudden he disappears. It's like.. *blinkblink*, what happened? Lol. It's pretty funny when I think about it now. There's always one foot out of the water with him, very lightning strikes everywhere, then striking and focusing at one spot before zooming off again. When the aim is centered, it's electrifying.
 
#37 ·
@Bumblyjack

Are those your personal observations of the stackings? Because it seems a bit black and white - and more speculated than actually confirmed. Nowhere have I read that Sx/Sp's are more prone to not leaving when they get drained. Actually, because of the Sp being second, they're more likely to realize that at this point, they're going against what is comfortable for them. Sp coming second is more like emergency breaks when things become too much.

On the other hand, Sx/So's blind spot is Sp so they're the ones least likely to monitor themselves. That to me, makes more sense.
 
#38 ·
Bumblyjack

Are those your personal observations of the stackings? Because it seems a bit black and white - and more speculated than actually confirmed. Nowhere have I read that Sx/Sp's are more prone to not leaving when they get drained. Actually, because of the Sp being second, they're more likely to realize that at this point, they're going against what is comfortable for them. Sp coming second is more like emergency breaks when things become too much.

On the other hand, Sx/So's blind spot is Sp so they're the ones least likely to monitor themselves. That to me, makes more sense.
- You've never read of the Sx/Sp push-and-pull where they become so ensnared by merging that the drain on them builds up to a boiling point and then they suddenly push away?

- What about of how an Sx/Sp's energy is strongly fixated but comes out in spurts while an Sx/So's is more constant but more widely dispersed?

- How about how Sx/So's do not exhibit this push-and-pull behavior but rather more smoothly and freely engage and disengage?

- What about how a chief purpose of the secondary instinct is to help achieve the fulfillment of the primary instinct?

- How about, more generally, that Instinct Variant Stackings are not merely hierarchies of relative instinctual strengths but distinct types with characteristic unconscious orientations toward the instincts?
 
#41 ·
Bumblyjack said:
There's plenty of variation from one individual to the next, but most Sp/Sx's will offer greater intensity to and drain more energy from Sx/Sp's than say most So/Sp's would. The Sx/Sp-So/Sp relationship is more inert, generally. Mutual disinterest and possibly boredom are more likely here than intensity.
I can certify from experience that this isn't true. I really dislike how much you generalize.
 
#44 ·
Sx/So's will not do this. Freedom is too precious to surrender, even to the object of their deepest affection. The Sx/So ideal is not to run away but to stand and fight, tearing down the walls and breaking all chains. Their siren, their drug, their love...this is the greatest chain of them all. They have a strong desire to merge and yet are compelled to at least put up a token resistance.
True dat.


The Sx/So places these hopes in their cunning, cleverness, and ability to make the right choices and decisions. When things don't work out, an Sx/So may wonder what they could have done differently to have more success. This makes Sx/So's come off as enterprising masters of their own destiny.
Okay.

Let's take seduction as an example: an Sx/Sp focuses on seeming desirable and attractive, an Sx/So focuses on saying the right things and acting the right way.
No, not at all. My main thing is being desirable, feminine, and attractive to seduce my mate. If anything, I use a very specific energy while I'm seducing. It's not necessarily words because there have been times where I haven't used words at all. But it can include "movement".

However, best way for me to describe is as an energy that is harnessed and directly focused. But maintaining physical desirability and attractiveness is a huge factor while harnessing this energy. It takes up a huge part of my life and in an underlying motivation in much of what I do.


The Sx/So push-and-pull is an internal one: drawn in with some hesitation, drawn closer, maybe pull back a little, still drawn in. It doesn't look as extreme as the Sx/Sp dynamic because the Sx/So doesn't completely surrender to their desire.
I can relate to this. The closer I get, the more I know I will eventually be consumed. Must proceed with caution. It's like jumping off the high dive.


Additionally, an Sx/So has a much greater problem with partners that seem clingy or smothering. This is encroaches too greatly on their freedom.
Hahaha! Omg, yes. Clingy and smothering can feel like control.
 
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#45 ·
No, not at all. My main thing is being desirable, feminine, and attractive to seduce my mate. If anything, I use a very specific energy while I'm seducing. It's not necessarily words because there have been times where I haven't used words at all. But it can include "movement".

However, best way for me to describe is as an energy that is harnessed and directly focused. But maintaining physical desirability and attractiveness is a huge factor while harnessing this energy. It takes up a huge part of my life and in an underlying motivation in much of what I do.
This mindset is what I'm trying to put words to. Even with your appearance you seem to have a sense that it's something you do or can work on rather than something that just is or that you are. So, you actively try to be attractive? You work to have an attractive energy and appearance? You seem to feel that you have power over that, as if your actions make a difference in how attractive you are. If that's the case, that is a far different outlook on attractiveness than that of Sx/Sp's.

Sx/Sp's also do things to be attractive, I guess: grooming, dressing nice, trying to be pleasant or flirtatious in conversation...but beyond that an Sx/Sp's attractiveness or lack thereof feels unalterable, unchangeable. It's a resigned approach: "I hope I'm attractive because there's not really anything I can do about it." There's a lot of potential for self consciousness or vanity. Those who feel attractive feel lucky (modest) or like there's something innately better about them (arrogant). Those who feel unattractive feel unlucky or even cursed. A whole lot of Sx/Sp's fluctuate among these.
 
#54 ·
I don't know so much that I directly focus my energy on people so much as I concentrate to bring them to me like a venus fly trap. It's not so much an energy as it is an aura or a magnetic pull I try to cultivate between me and the person with coy glances, smiles, indirect attention, being in open spaces where they can easily access me, etc.

I pull the people I want to me and I push the people I don't want away from me. But yeah I would say when I want someone to notice me it's kind of like I am reeling them in, I'm playing with them and I want them to find me. I remember when I went to a concert/bar with a friend I was really interested in and I made them find me and look for me. I knew where they were the entire time but it was important for me that they look for me. That is the kind of energy I use when I want to attract someone. Of course I try and make myself as alluring as possible and engage with them as warmly as I can and remember things about them that I believe are important to them, but primarily I usually end up drawing people to me that I want to notice me or get me and it usually ends up working.

That said I also have an off button which I disengage and make myself as remote as possible and it's a complete disconnect or a connection at a shallow level because I am just not interested in some people and I don't wish to be that close to them and I kind of break away from them.
 
#56 ·
I don't know so much that I directly focus my energy on people so much as I concentrate to bring them to me like a venus fly trap. It's not so much an energy as it is an aura or a magnetic pull I try to cultivate between me and the person with coy glances, smiles, indirect attention, being in open spaces where they can easily access me, etc.

I pull the people I want to me and I push the people I don't want away from me. But yeah I would say when I want someone to notice me it's kind of like I am reeling them in, I'm playing with them and I want them to find me. I remember when I went to a concert/bar with a friend I was really interested in and I made them find me and look for me. I knew where they were the entire time but it was important for me that they look for me. That is the kind of energy I use when I want to attract someone. Of course I try and make myself as alluring as possible and engage with them as warmly as I can and remember things about them that I believe are important to them, but primarily I usually end up drawing people to me that I want to notice me or get me and it usually ends up working.

That said I also have an off button which I disengage and make myself as remote as possible and it's a complete disconnect or a connection at a shallow level because I am just not interested in some people and I don't wish to be that close to them and I kind of break away from them.

Oh my. Yes. I like this description too. Thank GOD, there are others.
 
#58 · (Edited)
@Bumblyjack: So, this is what I've come to understand based on your posts in this thread:

When it comes to how they view attraction, Sx/Sps are like a fuel gauge, in that they believe that whatever they do simply gets them to their capacity. They do not, however, believe it is possible to surpass that capacity in any way, except for altering the structure of their bodies or personalities; anything they do is simply there to fill up their tank to the point where they have enough of an attraction factor (which is the fuel, in this case) to be desirable to the right person. Failure for an Sx/Sp is attributed to either not enough fuel capacity, or neglecting to fill up the tank as far as was necessary, leading to a more fatalistic "if it wasn't meant to be, it wasn't meant to be" outlook.

Sx/Sos, on the other hand, are more like a loaded gun, and believe that each "attraction bullet" they fire has the power to hit its mark. It's not a question of "Do I have enough fuel to work for so-and-so", it's more "Am I aiming properly and at the right spots". Failure for an Sx/So is attributed to an inability to target and fire properly, which makes us more likely to try again from a different angle if the connection is deemed to be worth it.

As far as the process from start to finish is concerned, Sx/Sps are like werewolves. In the presence of their moon, they merge completely and totally, transforming themselves into creatures of unrestrained passion and intensity, exuding magnified energy until they cannot handle any more and they are forced to leave the connection in order to protect themselves. However, once the moon rises again, the process begins anew.

Sx/Sos, on the other hand, are like vampires. They home in on a desired target and proceed to feed off of the energy shared between the two, while the other person is in a hypnotic state and feels themselves riding the ecstatic waves of the connection as well. Once the connection has been drained of its lifeblood, the Sx/So will turn their attention to yet another source of energy, and the process begins again.

Sx/Sps become the energy, Sx/Sos consume it.
 
#60 ·
Bumblyjack: So, this is what I've come to understand based on your posts in this thread:

When it comes to how they view attraction, Sx/Sps are like a fuel gauge, in that they believe that whatever they do simply gets them to their capacity. They do not, however, believe it is possible to surpass that capacity in any way, except for altering the structure of their bodies or personalities; anything they do is simply there to fill up their tank to the point where they have enough of an attraction factor (which is the fuel, in this case) to be desirable to the right person. Failure for an Sx/Sp is attributed to either not enough fuel capacity, or neglecting to fill up the tank as far as was necessary, leading to a more fatalistic "if it wasn't meant to be, it wasn't meant to be" outlook.

Sx/Sos, on the other hand, are more like a loaded gun, and believe that each "attraction bullet" they fire has the power to hit its mark. It's not a question of "Do I have enough fuel to work for so-and-so", it's more "Am I aiming properly and at the right spots". Failure for an Sx/So is attributed to an inability to target and fire properly, which makes us more likely to try again from a different angle if the connection is deemed to be worth it.
Yeah, this is the gist of what I'm saying about how they view attraction. As for the Sx/Sp outlook on failure though, your description of their fatalism sounds like they nonchalantly accept how things turn out (I'm not sure if you meant it to sound like that or not). That's not the typical reaction. It's just one of the possible responses in the range from total devastation to pleased relief...from "My life is over" to "Phew, I dodged a bullet there." Disappointed frustration is the most common response.

Sx/Sp's are resigned to the idea that there's little or nothing they can do to change things but they usually care a lot about the outcome. I may not have made that clear before.


As far as the process from start to finish is concerned, Sx/Sps are like werewolves. In the presence of their moon, they merge completely and totally, transforming themselves into creatures of unrestrained passion and intensity, exuding magnified energy until they cannot handle any more and they are forced to leave the connection in order to protect themselves. However, once the moon rises again, the process begins anew.

Sx/Sos, on the other hand, are like vampires. They home in on a desired target and proceed to feed off of the energy shared between the two, while the other person is in a hypnotic state and feels themselves riding the ecstatic waves of the connection as well. Once the connection has been drained of its lifeblood, the Sx/So will turn their attention to yet another source of energy, and the process begins again.

Sx/Sps become the energy, Sx/Sos consume it.
The Sx/So's feed as long as the blood is worth it. When the moon goes down and pull becomes push, the Sx/Sp's disengage. (I think that's how it works with werewolves. I guess I need to brush up on my Lycanthropology studies.) Why do they push away? What's that like?

Some reasons and explanations:

1. It feels like the merging gets cut off all of a sudden or that it suddenly dies down in intensity. The Sx/Sp was entranced and fully in it and then...nothing. Where did it go? What the hell happened? Where is it? It's like a drug addict shooting up and expecting a rush and getting nothing. It's devastating.

2. Doubt: being uncertain that the merging will last. This also happens before merging, the Sx/Sp anticipates merging and then may worry that they're getting their hopes up and that maybe they are wrong to expect it. The real question is: Should I invest my Self Preservation (autonomy, energy, emotions, hopes, mental & physical health, resources, etc.) in this or not? Is this chance (because there are no guarantees in their perspective...the only guarantee is that it's going to cost me dearly) worth spilling my blood for?

3. Fear: strongly wanting someone or something is terrifying for the Sx/Sp. The desire itself isn't scary, but feeling that you would sacrifice anything to merge with them is. Also, there's the fear that you might sacrifice everything and still not get them!

An example of this is when an Sx/Sp feels betrayed in a relationship. "You never loved me!" "You're just using me!" Even with Frodo: "You're not my friend, you just want the ring." Along with this comes the realization of how much they have sacrificed for something that didn't come through: "Oh God, what have I done!?!" "I can't believe I trusted them." "I can't believe I did __ for/with them (or that I gave up __ for them or gave __ to them)." "But what about everything I've done for you?"

4. A red flag goes up and they angrily think: "This is not how this (relationship, etc.) is supposed to work." or "That was not part of our arrangement." This has to do with the interplay between the instincts (as do all of these things).
 
#62 ·
Very interesting for me too.

I think I'm sx first. I only want close relationships with a few people, focus on them (especially when trying to worm my way in), and ignore or push away most others unless they're potentially useful to me. I dislike clinginess because it distracts me from my "causes."

Different issue: what does sx/so do if he/she feels there's no way to be attractive to potential targets? Does early-life attractiveness influence instincts?
 
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#63 ·
Different issue: what does sx/so do if he/she feels there's no way to be attractive to potential targets? Does early-life attractiveness influence instincts?
It doesn't matter. It's an energy. Physically, I was a late bloomer but I always had that energy and drive. I didn't have to work at it. It's there. It's my base line.

I don't think I've ever felt "not attractive" to potential targets.
 
#64 ·
If someone is objectively ugly and knows it, 1) it will affect his/her "energy" and 2) whatever vibe the person gives off won't be enough to overcome the ugliness with many people and maybe none from the target market. Also, I suppose an introvert Sx first won't come across with as much energy as would the extraverted counterpart.
 
#66 ·
I don't see INFPs seeking ongoing formal guidance on how to come off as attractive....

Of course I think there's much more to attractiveness than physical qualities. I think sx first is rarely just about physical pleasure. Maybe sx first would enjoy seeing beauty, but do little more than look if substance isn't hinted at.
 
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