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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Keeping it real, being forward, saying what you mean, etc. I think people say these thing to sound cool because just about every person I've met can't take any of those things!

Now, as a case in point my friend confided in me she thinks she has a drinking problem. I gave her my insight and gave her some pointers on what to do. I suggested that she should attend an AA meeting, which she did. She told me it went well and she would go again. Beautiful. So I've been noticing that she has been posting on FB that she is drinking this and that alcoholic beverage. Wait a minute, flag on the play. I thought she had stopped drinking. Typically I would ignore this because it really isn't my business but since she took up my time carrying on about her problem I felt compelled to say something. I simply ask if she was drinking again. Why did I say that. She got really defensive and told me that she never said that and she was just going to cut down and only drink wine. Now for those of you reading this who have a personality similar to mine knows that isn't going to work...but I didn't say that. I didn't want to come off as a know it all. Then I asked well, you went to an AA meeting right? She said yes but that is for people who want to quit and I didn't know that. You really didn't know that :dry:. But again, I didn't say that. Then I said oh okay I just wanted to be clear. Now I think she is a little perturbed because of that but she is the first person talking about people keeping it real.

Being forward has gotten me into more trouble than I care to think about...but I don't understand. People say they want the truth but when you tell them they get their undies in a twist about it. And it's not like I'm giving opinions, unsolicited advice...it's just the plain old truth. I try to dress it up a little bit but it rarely works. I guess it's like putting lipstick on a pig. And the messed up thing about it is I can only do one of two things say how I feel or ignore it all together. I can't bullshit my way through it. And I never go to anyone they come to me (except in the example above but that was a different situation...I don't want to see my friend lose a battle to alcohol).

So what is your take on telling it like it is and how do you handle it? I would like to see how others handle speaking the truth and how the other person receives it.
 

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I've only been asked to be in two weddings - both of which I totally did NOT think the people should be getting married. The first of them, the bride (my close friend at the time) asked me, "So what do you REALLY think about Edwin?"

I said, "do you want to know what I think, or do you want me to say something that validates your decision to marry him?"

She walked away.

(They are on kid #2 now according to facebook, but I don't have contact with them at all anymore)

The other one, it was the groom that was my friend. I told him, point blank, that he shouldn't marry that bitch. He's still married to her, some 10 or whatever years later. And they are in couples therapy, he's already cheated on her, she's cheated on him, it's a complete fucking disaster. He constantly reminds me that I called it. Well, no shit.

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I don't know. I don't butt in (anymore) when I'm not asked. When I'm asked, I weigh it out - and often I'll ask, "do you want my honest opinion, or are you looking for validation?" Usually that ends the conversation right there, and I never get in trouble.

I've significantly reduced the number of people who ask my advice and input in my life, so the only ones left are folks who understand that I'm gonna say what I mean and mean what I say. If they want their dick yanked, I'm the wrong girl.
 

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As for your friend with the booze problem...

You didn't do anything wrong. She came to you initially, right? So, you are now invested in it. Don't go to someone with a problem unless you're ready to handle the consequences of them being involved, you know?

So screw her.

If you went out of your way to diagnose alcoholism in a friend (without being approached or asked), I could totally see her being defensive and shitty. But. She came to you. She got what she asked for - the truth.

I'm sure you're a lot like me - no one comes to me for petting and approval. They come to me when they want the clear, no-frills, objective truth. When they want a problem or puzzle solved. When they can't dissect their lives enough to get clarity. No one expects rainbows and leprechauns from me. And anyone who thinks that's what they'll get is quickly disappointed. I can't. I don't know how.

You're in the clear.

Yeah, we "get in trouble" for this a lot probably. But I'd rather be in "trouble" for being honest and forthright, than for blowing smoke up someones' ass.
 

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The only people I give advice to is my family, and they're stuck with me. But they're also used to me by this time too...haha. My INFJ mom shares things with me and asks my advice on things, and I pick no bones about saying what's on my mind. She's surprisingly good at taking it.
 

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We are natural trouble shooters and we're damn good at it. If they can't handle the truth, piss on 'em. :happy:
 

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I give advice only when asked (unless I'm dealing with someone like an INTJ, a type whose members are too awesome to get offended, and will take on advice if they agree with it).

It covers my arse fine: if I give advice, the person takes it, and then something goes wrong, they might turn around and say that I was interfering (and go tell everyone else this).

Sometimes people have to learn from their own mistakes.
 

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People want me to be honest with them but can't handle the honesty. So I don't know why they bother. I keep my mouth shut nowadays unless it's with friends whom I know for sure appreciate my frankness. As for the others, they can continue to live in their own 'perfect' world. No loss for me :)
 

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Something that was brought to my attention about me years ago that I find indicative of all Ti dominant types, is we need to fix problems. If someone comes to us with a problem, we're going to give sound practical advise on how to fix the problem. If we have little experience or knowledge in how to fix the problem, then we're damn sure going to find out who can fix the problem and refer the person there. That is what we do.

Here lies the problem and what I was reminded of some ten years ago. Not everyone wants their problem fixed. Some people (maybe most) simply need a shoulder to cry on and be allowed to vent. My ISTJ co-worker at the time simply told me, when I come to you like this, I am not asking you to help me fix my problem, I am just needing think out loud to someone I know will keep my confidence.

Going back to the friend with the drinking problem, I am not sure what you thought you heard Clarified. But based on what you said, it sounds like she was looking for you to validate she is still a good person regardless of whether she prefers to drink. Doesn't sound like she was intending for you to fix her problem. As for telling it like it is, brutal honesty from us is not what is always being looked for. Sometimes it's our ability to simply be objective and they know they weren't judged. For many of the inquiries given as examples, I on occasion will throw the inquiry back at them when I know they don't want the hard truth by simply responding. If someone asks my opinion, especially about a relationship, then I simply ask back, if you have to ask me, then what are you telling yourself?
 

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Something that was brought to my attention about me years ago that I find indicative of all Ti dominant types, is we need to fix problems. If someone comes to us with a problem, we're going to give sound practical advise on how to fix the problem. If we have little experience or knowledge in how to fix the problem, then we're damn sure going to find out who can fix the problem and refer the person there. That is what we do.

Here lies the problem and what I was reminded of some ten years ago. Not everyone wants their problem fixed. Some people (maybe most) simply need a shoulder to cry on and be allowed to vent. My ISTJ co-worker at the time simply told me, when I come to you like this, I am not asking you to help me fix my problem, I am just needing think out loud to someone I know will keep my confidence.

Going back to the friend with the drinking problem, I am not sure what you thought you heard Clarified. But based on what you said, it sounds like she was looking for you to validate she is still a good person regardless of whether she prefers to drink. Doesn't sound like she was intending for you to fix her problem. As for telling it like it is, brutal honesty from us is not what is always being looked for. Sometimes it's our ability to simply be objective and they know they weren't judged. For many of the inquiries given as examples, I on occasion will throw the inquiry back at them when I know they don't want the hard truth by simply responding. If someone asks my opinion, especially about a relationship, then I simply ask back, if you have to ask me, then what are you telling yourself?

Well stated. This is sound advice and something I have had to learn only through experience.
 

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I understand. What you want to say is there but I've had to become attuned to what will piss people off. It seems I'm not the only one! Its all politics.My friendship group is splitting up and there have been a lot of arguments. I'm the only one that hasn't been in one because of the ability to know what will annoy people and create arguments. I can't be bothered with it. It would be good to vent my anger but it will probably cause more in the long run because they'll come back for more! People usually don't want the complete truth they either want support that whatever they're doing is right or for the truth to be sugar coated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I kind of left some key factors out of the original story.

I completely know the difference between a person looking to blow off a little steam and a person who is searching for help. I a have cousin with the worst husband in the world...do you know how badly I want to tell her to leave him and get on with it? She even asked me to help her file for divorce pro se but I said no, it wasn't my place to get involved. I told her that I would always be there for her regardless if she's married to him or not. I never, ever give my advice I just tell her things from an objective point of view or give her another way of looking at things.

Now my friend with the alcohol problem is a little different. I have been sober for four years, and I quit smoking I would say five years ago. She knew me when I was drinking and of course she knows me now that I'm sober. Putting that into consideration she told me that she had a problem and didn't know what to do. I shared my experience with her and what steps I took to get sober...she mentioned AA was recommended by her therapist and I said that's not a bad idea, that's what helped me the most in the beginning. I didn't get all preachy and self-righteous I just shared my experience. After her meeting she called me and told me how it went. She said she would go again and I said okay, cool. I had seen her posts about drinking many times before but I never said anything. It wasn't until late one night when I was up chatting with her did I see the severity of things. She would say things, then two moments later she wouldn't remember and say she never said that. I came to the conclusion she had been drinking and the next day I asked her if she starting drinking again.

When it comes to alcohol there is nothing I won't do to help a person get sober, but there is nothing I will do to let them continue. If anyone came to me venting about their alcohol problem with no means of finding a solution then their coming to the wrong person. So in summary, she did come to me for help but when I called her out she got mad. I mean wish she would stop, but she's the only one in control. The only difference between us is that I was never in denial, I just didn't know how to stop.
 

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Now my friend with the alcohol problem is a little different. I have been sober for four years, and I quit smoking I would say five years ago. She knew me when I was drinking and of course she knows me now that I'm sober. Putting that into consideration she told me that she had a problem and didn't know what to do. I shared my experience with her and what steps I took to get sober...she mentioned AA was recommended by her therapist and I said that's not a bad idea, that's what helped me the most in the beginning. I didn't get all preachy and self-righteous I just shared my experience. After her meeting she called me and told me how it went. She said she would go again and I said okay, cool. I had seen her posts about drinking many times before but I never said anything. It wasn't until late one night when I was up chatting with her did I see the severity of things. She would say things, then two moments later she wouldn't remember and say she never said that. I came to the conclusion she had been drinking and the next day I asked her if she starting drinking again.

When it comes to alcohol there is nothing I won't do to help a person get sober, but there is nothing I will do to let them continue. If anyone came to me venting about their alcohol problem with no means of finding a solution then their coming to the wrong person. So in summary, she did come to me for help but when I called her out she got mad. I mean wish she would stop, but she's the only one in control. The only difference between us is that I was never in denial, I just didn't know how to stop.
Correct me if I am wrong on the principles of anon, but doesn't the person have to be ready themselves? If she is merely vocalizing her need, maybe she remains in denial or has yet to realize she has hit rock bottom. I have never been through an anon course, but I would suspect that even after admitting there is a problem it remains up to that person to take the steps to do something about it. Many years ago I worked for a crisis line, with a lot of repeat callers. When it came to the chronic callers I would remind the staff that sometimes you may want to see the person succeed more than the person seeking it. You can't save her from drowning, only sink with her if you're too close to the situation.
 

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It wasn't until late one night when I was up chatting with her did I see the severity of things. She would say things, then two moments later she wouldn't remember and say she never said that. I came to the conclusion she had been drinking and the next day I asked her if she starting drinking again.

When it comes to alcohol there is nothing I won't do to help a person get sober, but there is nothing I will do to let them continue. If anyone came to me venting about their alcohol problem with no means of finding a solution then their coming to the wrong person. So in summary, she did come to me for help but when I called her out she got mad. I mean wish she would stop, but she's the only one in control. The only difference between us is that I was never in denial, I just didn't know how to stop.

I've never been in either position (alcoholic or friend to alcoholic), so I'm just tossing words around here.

I know my own shortcomings, and the ways that I sabotage my life. I'm horrendously disorganized, I mostly live in the moment, I am sporadic and inconsistent with much of what I do. I already know these things, I know I have to work on them, and I don't want that stuff pointed out to me. On the couple of occasions where I have asked more organized, responsible people for help devising a "system" for my chaos, it was a bit humiliating... and, even more shamefully, I didn't implement their suggestions.

When they asked after my progress, I couldn't help but be a bit angry - not at THEM, but at myself. There I was, still drowning in a sea of my own mess, after asking for help and letting them spend their precious time advising me.

It's not quite as sinister as an addiction, but try to imagine that your friend may perhaps be angry at HERSELF for dragging you into her morass, and then disappointing you. There are few things worse than letting your friends down. And sometimes that feeling manifests itself in anger, spite - mean words, raised voices, shutting down of emotions, etc.

I would walk away for a while. I know it is in you to want to help, and it's passion of yours. But until she reaches back out to you, there's really nothing you can do. I'm sorry this went down the way it did. But if it's a good friendship, and if she did come to you for counsel in the first place, she'll come back eventually I'm sure. I doubt any bridges were nuked.
 

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Sounds to me like you care too much about hurting people's feelings. That always seemed like an ISTP flaw to me. We don't like conflict, mostly for that reason, but also because conflict exhausts us.

Be blunt and callous. In my experience, it almost always makes them hot and bothered at that moment, then eventually it blows over and they're ok with you again. Just make sure to assure them that you still enjoy their company. I find people hold strange grudges against themselves, like they keep telling themselves I hate them when that isn't the case. Relationships are another story, I'd advice to filter your words in relatioships, obviously.

As for telling it like it is, I get that in the military a lot. Some gunnery sergeant who likes to hear his mouth speak (almost always ESTJ's, haha) will say, "I'm gonna tell it like it is," and then speak for an hour but actually say nothing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I've never been in either position (alcoholic or friend to alcoholic), so I'm just tossing words around here.

I know my own shortcomings, and the ways that I sabotage my life. I'm horrendously disorganized, I mostly live in the moment, I am sporadic and inconsistent with much of what I do. I already know these things, I know I have to work on them, and I don't want that stuff pointed out to me. On the couple of occasions where I have asked more organized, responsible people for help devising a "system" for my chaos, it was a bit humiliating... and, even more shamefully, I didn't implement their suggestions.

When they asked after my progress, I couldn't help but be a bit angry - not at THEM, but at myself. There I was, still drowning in a sea of my own mess, after asking for help and letting them spend their precious time advising me.

It's not quite as sinister as an addiction, but try to imagine that your friend may perhaps be angry at HERSELF for dragging you into her morass, and then disappointing you. There are few things worse than letting your friends down. And sometimes that feeling manifests itself in anger, spite - mean words, raised voices, shutting down of emotions, etc.

I would walk away for a while. I know it is in you to want to help, and it's passion of yours. But until she reaches back out to you, there's really nothing you can do. I'm sorry this went down the way it did. But if it's a good friendship, and if she did come to you for counsel in the first place, she'll come back eventually I'm sure. I doubt any bridges were nuked.

Yes Chiagirl, I think you hit the nail right on the head...she was more angry with herself than with me and embarrassed that I called her out. Not to mention the fact with addictions you really don't like it when people call you out. I know for myself, that was what helped me get sober someone not ignoring the problem. Not only that her image is EVERYTHING to her and she doesn't like to appear flawed to anyone. I think when I started this thread I was still a little hot under the collar. I sent her a message to let her know I was still here, I know that it's hard and she didn't have to feel out of sorts about it. It's just that I see her floundering and I have been through all of that...but I can't help someone who isn't ready to be helped. Oh well.

And yes DJ...I do care about people's feelings (people that I care about that is) so it upsets me when said person gets angry with me when I'm just doing what I would like for someone to do for me. I just have to remember each person is an individual and not duplicates of myself. Conflict, ugh I don't like it. Some people ignore it and pretend it never happened. I can't do that...it's like I have to fix the problem, I can't always do that and that takes a lot out of me.

Functi, actually there is really no steadfast rule about intervening when it comes to alcoholism. But if you can't come to terms with step one then it really doesn't matter who says something or who doesn't because you cannot admit it to yourself. And as far as sinking right along with the person you are trying to help that is very true and correct. Technically if she is still drinking I shouldn't even be communicating with her because it may affect my own sobriety. Since she lives pretty far away I figured it wouldn't hurt but under the circumstances I think I will just leave the entire situation alone until she is actually ready...then it's a different story.

But whatever it's done now. No hard feelings between us. At least she isn't posting about alcohol anymore!
 

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In fact, if you are always blunt and callous, it becomes expected, and suddenly everything you say is given its due consideration. If you try to be nice, you kinda ruin it for yourself because people don't know what to expect... haha.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
When people come to me they know what time it is...I try to finesse what I am saying but it doesn't always come out right.
 

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When people come to me they know what time it is...I try to finesse what I am saying but it doesn't always come out right.
I'm the exact same way. I've always been cautious about what I say to people and I often ruin the point I'm trying to get across or taint my advice because of it. Typically after this happens I think to myself, "What was that? You should have just told them straight up what you thought." Avoiding conflict is mainly the reason I do this. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or cause them to view me as disrespectful etc.

I've been getting to the point, more recently however, in which sugar-coating isn't doing it for me. I feel almost like a ticking time-bomb. I'm tired of wasting my time and breath. I know being blunt and direct will cause some conflict-my only concern is how I'd react to the conflict because I'd feel it'd be essentially my fault. I know one of these days I'm going to get to the point where I'm not concerned about softening the blow and when that happens, I probably won't find myself sugar-coating anymore.

Personally, what I'm doing, is trying to become comfortable being straightforward around my closes friends and relatives because I know it shouldn't affect our relationship permanently or severely(if it does, screw em'. I'm trying to be myself and if they don't like that, I don't need em'.). Once I'm comfortable there, I'll take that mindset elsewhere and gradually move up the chain. I'm not sure it'll work out that way, but it's a start.
 

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If I have something to say to someone, I say it. I may filter it a bit depending on who I'm talking to but, I'm pretty blunt and straightforward with people. However, I do try not to intentionally insult most people.
 

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When people come to me they know what time it is...I try to finesse what I am saying but it doesn't always come out right.
i dont even "say" anything to these people anymore. what i do is, figure out what's wrong. then i ask them questions about it that clearly leads them down the logical practical path that i picked out for them. i find it funny. it's more a game to me now. i'll ask the questions, they'll give the answers and we go down that road. then the light pops on and they're like, i'm not going to do that! they've figured out what i've alluded to without me saying anything of substance. then they resist their own logical answers! it cracks me up.
 
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