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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
First I would like to say that I apologise in advance for asking you all to do some reasearch for this topic. If you do not feel like doing so, that is ok, but I am very interested in , and value all of your opinions.

~Can you bring yourself to respect the views of a psychoactive entheogen user?

~Would you ever consider the use of entheogenic substances to study the realms of the unconscious?

I'm very curious on what people will say about this. If you do not know who Terence Mckenna is, here is a good starting point ~

Machine Elves 101, or Why Terence McKenna Matters | Reality Sandwich

I encourage you all to view some of his seminars on youtube and discuss your opinions about him.

here is a link to his videos ~ Media : McKenna

I reccomend Eros and Eschaton, but any of his work is good. Thank you!
 

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I haven't read too much from Alan Watts or Terence McKenna but I find their works intriguing, even if I may not always agree. Frankly, I haven't thoroughly studied their works enough to provide a valid opinion.

In the below interview, comedian and actor, Joe Rogan, discusses McKenna's theory of intergalactic psychedelics with theoretical physicist, Michio Kaku. They talk about the probability of mushrooms coming from cosmic objects, such as asteroids, which contain spores that correlate to the psychedelic mushrooms we find on Earth.


There's another excellent interview with philosopher and writer, Robert Anton Wilson, where he speaks about McKenna's Information Fractal theory. McKenna talks about the increasing amount of information at a faster and faster rate over centuries, years, months, days, minutes, seconds, and milliseconds. He calculated the rate of information, and how the amount humans receive will resemble that of a Mandelbrot fractal.

This is a short link to what I'm talking about but I cannot find the video link that's floating around YouTube. On a side note, you should read or listen to Wilson’s work, Quantum Psychology. I believe he discusses some of McKenna’s theories in the audio portion or during one of his lectures.

The Robert Anton Wilson Website - Cosmic Trigger Volume II: Down to Earth

Here’s an interesting video about conspiracy theories and the improbability of these theories according to Chomsky, Wilson and McKenna.


I found this video with Alan Watts fascinating, where he pretends he’s God and answers the audience’s question in a logical and cryptic manner.

 

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I don't particularly think of psychoactive drugs when I think of the ideas of McKenna but rather the ideas that he, and a few others, and I have shared in seeing culture as a sort of operating system.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
I tend to think that we INTP's are more receptive to Lateral thinking than others. Partly because we usually take an "observer" position and see everything from afar. Now, what if we could move beyond that and be completely free from our culture and the restrictive belief systems of our societies?

Ps. Im not saying that all other types are not as receptive as we are, Im just saying that I think that this is a strong INTP trait in general.
 

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What if one of the effects of drug use is a feeling of, "having found truth"? I know that sobriety tends to have the effect of feeling that what one saw on drugs was not as profound as first thought or had no truth to it at all.

It seems, to me, that thoughts feel more like the "truth" or less like the "truth" depending on our mood and state of consciousness rather than because of the actual validity of the thoughts.

In that respect perhaps drugs only teach us skepticism and subjectivism. (just thoughts.. not something i definetly believe)
 

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Read prometheus rising. Its a quick read, and it gets into a lot of this stuff sans the drugs. Robert anton wilson has many similar thoughts, but without thinking drugs were necessary. He was actually influenced a bit by timothy leary

anyway, if you are into this stuff i highly suggest it
 
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Check this out, you might find it interesting
timothy leary also mentions about robert anton wilson, and others.
people SHOULD be respected for whatever they choose to do, but like your posts states, in the view of society, seems to be a bit taboo and timothy leary tried to conquer this, also i heard from sources, that psychedelic drugs seem to open a part of your brain that is dormant.
interesting subject.
 

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The Eight Circuits

The names for the circuits used by Timothy Leary [1][2][3] are shown first and the names for the circuits used by Robert Anton Wilson are shown in parentheses [4](they both used the same names for the first, second, and fifth circuits). After the name of the circuit, the name that was used by Timothy Leary to describe the level of consciousness that is activated by that circuit is shown in parentheses [5].

[edit]1. The Biosurvival Circuit (The Breath of Consciousness)
Imprinted in infancy, concerned with suckling, nourishment, cuddling, bio-security, etc. The imprinting of this circuit sets up the basic attitude of trust or suspicion which will last for life. First activated when a human being is born, and programs perception onto an either-or grid, divided into nurturing-helpful and noxious-dangerous (approach/accept vs. flight/flee). Leary thinks that this circuit is stimulated in adults by opioid drugs. This circuit is said to have appeared in the earliest evolution of invertebrate brain. This circuit begins with 1 spatial dimension, forward/back.

[edit]2. The Emotional-Territorial Circuit (Freud's Ego)
Imprinted in the toddling stage, concerned with emotions, domination and submission strategies, territory etc. The first imprint on this circuit identifies the stimuli which will automatically trigger dominant, aggressive behavior or submissive, co-operative behavior. This circuit is activated with abundant quantities of alcohol. This circuit appeared first in territorial vertebrate animals. This circuit introduces a 2nd dimension; up/down.

[edit]3. The Symbolic (Neuro-Semantic-Dexterity) Circuit (The Rational Mind)
Imprinted by human artifacts and symbol systems. Concerned with handling the environment, invention, calculation, prediction, building a “map” of the universe etc. It is associated with physical dexterity and caffeine, speed, cocaine and a high-protein diet activate this circuit. This circuit supposedly appeared first when hominids started differentiating from the rest of the primates.

[edit]4. The Domestic (Socio-Sexual) Circuit (The "Adult" Personality)
Imprinted by the first orgasm-mating experiences and tribal “morals”. Concerned with sexual pleasure, (instead of sexual reproduction) local definitions of “moral” and “immoral”, reproduction, nurture of the young etc. This circuit is basically concerned with operating within social networks and the transmission of culture across time. This circuit is said to have first appeared with the development of tribes. Leary never associated a drug with it, but some have pointed out that androgens for males, estrogens for females and Empathogen-entactogens such as MDEA, MDMA, MDA. Seem to meet some of the requirements needed to activate this circuit.

[edit]5. The Neurosomatic Circuit (Zen-Yoga Mind-Body-Connexion)
Concerned with neurological-somatic feedbacks, feeling high, somatic reprogramming etc. The fifth circuit, according to Leary, is consciousness of the body. There is a marked shift from linear visual space to an all-encompassing aesthetic sensory space. A hedonic turn-on occurs, a rapturous amusement, a detachment from the previously compulsive mechanism of the first four circuits. This circuit is stimulated by ecstatic experiences via physiological effects of marijuana, Hatha Yoga, tantra (Leary's name for tantra was hedonic engineering), Zen meditation, and free fall. Leary describes that this circuit first appeared in the upper classes with the development of leisure-class civilizations around 2000 BC.

[edit]6. The Neuroelectric (Metaprogramming) Circuit (Psionic Electronic-Interface Mind)
Concerned with re-imprinting and re-programming all earlier circuits, relativity of “realities” perceived, cybernetic consciousness, so-called PSI/magical powers, etc. The sixth circuit consists of the nervous system becoming aware of itself. Leary says this circuit enables telepathic communication and associates it with peyote (mescaline) and psilocybin mushrooms (psilocybin), as well as being associated with computer games. This circuit is traced by Leary back to 500 BC and he associates it with the Silk Road.

[edit]7. The Neurogenetic (Morphogenetic) Circuit (Buddha-Monad 'Mind')
Concerned with evolutionary consciousness (past and future), DNA-RNA-brain feedbacks (ancestral, societal and scientific). The first to achieve this mutation spoke of “memories of past lives”, “reincarnation”, “immortality” etc. This circuit is stimulated by LSD, higher doses of peyote or psilocybin mushrooms, Raja Yoga, and years of dedicated meditative practice in general. The circuit first appeared among the Hindus in the early first millennium and later reappeared among the Sufi sects.

[edit]8. The Psychoatomic (Quantum Non-Local) Circuit (Overmind)
Concerned with quantum consciousness, non-local awareness (information from beyond ordinary space-time awareness which is limited by the speed of light), illumination, out-of-body experiences, astral projection, contact with alien entities (which does not necessarily specifically refer to only materially based creatures from outer space, but rather all beings, including e.g. angels) or with a galactic Overmind etc. Some of the ways this circuit can get activated are the awakening of kundalini, shock, near-death experience etc. This circuit has even been compared to the Buddhist concept of Indra's net from the Avatamsaka Sutra. Leary associated DMT/ayahuasca, ketamine, and high doses of LSD (1,000 mcg) with this circuit.

[edit]Other authors on the eight circuits
Leary's ideas heavily influenced the work of Robert Anton Wilson. Wilson's book Prometheus Rising is an in-depth, highly detailed and inclusive work documenting Leary’s eight-circuit model of consciousness. Wilson, like Leary, uses an amalgam of various approaches such as the 8-Circuit model of consciousness, quantum mechanics, relativity, Gurdjieff’s self-observation exercises, Alfred Korzybski’s general semantics etc. Wilson's published screenplay Reality Is What You Can Get Away With also uses and explains the model in a film format.

The model is also fairly prominent in chaos magic, where the eight circuits are understood to be related to the eight rays of the Symbol of Chaos. This concept has been detailed in "Chaotopia!" by Dave Lee, a leading member of the magic society Illuminates of Thanateros. Although both Leary and Wilson were members in this group near the end of their lives, the circuit design clearly predates this organization.

Another book, Angel Tech by Antero Alli, is structured around the eight-circuit model. The book includes many collages by the author to illustrate various points. In the book, the first four circuits are associated with robotic ("tech") aspects of humanity, and the final four are related to the "angelic" nature. It includes suggested activities such as meditations and construction of tarot-card collages associated with each circuit.
Rolf Von Eckartsberg also appears to have been influenced by the model.[6][7]

8-Circuit Model of Consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




"Human society as a whole is a vast brainwashing machine whose semantic rules and sex roles create a social robot."
— Robert Anton Wilson (Prometheus Rising)


"When we meet somebody whose separate tunnel-reality is obviously far different from ours, we are a bit frightened and always disoriented. We tend to think they are mad, or that they are crooks trying to con us in some way, or that they are hoaxers playing a joke. Yet it is neurologically obvious that no two brains have the same genetically-programmed hard wiring, the same imprints, the same conditioning, the same learning experiences. We are all living in separate realities. That is why communication fails so often, and misunderstandings and resentments are so common. I say "meow" and you say "Bow-wow," and each of us is convinced the other is a bit dumb."
— Robert Anton Wilson (Prometheus Rising)



r.a.w. expands on the 8 circuit model in his book. i think you can get it online here:
Prometheus Rising.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download


also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychonautics
 

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I haven't read too much from Alan Watts or Terence McKenna but I find their works intriguing, even if I may not always agree. Frankly, I haven't thoroughly studied their works enough to provide a valid opinion.

In the below interview, comedian and actor, Joe Rogan, discusses McKenna's theory of intergalactic psychedelics with theoretical physicist, Michio Kaku. They talk about the probability of mushrooms coming from cosmic objects, such as asteroids, which contain spores that correlate to the psychedelic mushrooms we find on Earth.

YouTube - O&A - Joe Rogan and Michio Kaku discuss mushrooms and the universe pt 1/2

There's another excellent interview with philosopher and writer, Robert Anton Wilson, where he speaks about McKenna's Information Fractal theory. McKenna talks about the increasing amount of information at a faster and faster rate over centuries, years, months, days, minutes, seconds, and milliseconds. He calculated the rate of information, and how the amount humans receive will resemble that of a Mandelbrot fractal.

This is a short link to what I'm talking about but I cannot find the video link that's floating around YouTube. On a side note, you should read or listen to Wilson’s work, Quantum Psychology. I believe he discusses some of McKenna’s theories in the audio portion or during one of his lectures.

The Robert Anton Wilson Website - Cosmic Trigger Volume II: Down to Earth

Here’s an interesting video about conspiracy theories and the improbability of these theories according to Chomsky, Wilson and McKenna.

YouTube - Why The New World Order Will Fail- Terence Mckenna, Robert Anton Wilson, Noam Chomsky

I found this video with Alan Watts fascinating, where he pretends he’s God and answers the audience’s question in a logical and cryptic manner.

YouTube - Alan Watts is God for 10 Minutes
Hahaha, I loved the Kaku-Rogan interview. Those two are like black and white!:laughing:
 

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~Can you bring yourself to respect the views of a psychoactive entheogen user?

~Would you ever consider the use of entheogenic substances to study the realms of the unconscious?
Yes and yes. Whether someone has used psychoactives or not has little to do with their credibility, in my opinion. Some people are drawn to drugs because of the opportunity for exploring new perspectives, some people are drawn to them just to see pretty colors. My respect has more to do with how they've used the drug than the simple fact they've used it. There are many intelligent users out there.

What if one of the effects of drug use is a feeling of, "having found truth"? I know that sobriety tends to have the effect of feeling that what one saw on drugs was not as profound as first thought or had no truth to it at all.

It seems, to me, that thoughts feel more like the "truth" or less like the "truth" depending on our mood and state of consciousness rather than because of the actual validity of the thoughts.

In that respect perhaps drugs only teach us skepticism and subjectivism. (just thoughts.. not something i definetly believe)
Couldn't we also argue that sobriety dampers the truth, at least as much as being drugged enhances it? We might like to think of sobriety as being more objective, but sobriety can also be cynical. Our mood colors our perception and judgment of just about everything, so I am careful not to write something off as "false" just because I'm not feeling it in the moment.

This could also be looked at from situations not involving drugs. People will find "spiritual truths" through many things -- prayer, meditation, what have you -- and no matter the source of the truth, there's always the possibility it will be earth-shattering at first and lacklustre later. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's a non-truth. It just means the novelty of the new perspective has worn off and it doesn't get you giddy like it first did.

I also dislike the mentality of "drugs will only tell you lies" (not attacking your quote; just in general) because I think exploring those lesser known realms of conciousness (consciously!) can provide some seriously cool insight. Even if a particular truth is discovered and later feels empty, you still went through the process of finding that perspective -- and I believe every new perspective gained increases the mind's flexibility.

I like the description that Aldous Huxley uses in The Doors of Perception. He talks about how the brain is a reducing valve. There is such a surplus of stimuli in our world that our brain filters it out to avoid becoming overwhelmed. With certain drugs (Huxley was using mescaline), that valve is opened wider and allows the brain to be cognizant of a much greater flow of stimuli. This waterfall of information can cause the senses to cross, where people "see music" or "taste words." I remember one particular paragraph where Huxley went on and on about how he saw the beautiful, eternal mysterious of the world in a table leg.

So...truth? Probably not to most sober minds. But I think even those potentially silly truths are worth it, for the sheer novelty of finding the meaning of life in a table leg.
 

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I have a lot of thoughts on this subject.

Isn't it funny how the drugs that are legal, albeit regulated by the FCC, are the worst? Anti-depressants for example. All they do is keep you complacent enough to kick out boxes at a factory, file insurance claims, piss your life away in a cubicle. Also look how bad the withdrawal is for people who use benzos. Look up benzo withdrawal on youtube, it looks horrifying.

It feels like they don't want us to have fun in this country. Even the whole DUI shit is a scam to me. 0.08% alcohol is like 4 beers. Who the fuck partys on four beers and drives home happily? This generation sucks.

Some societys don't view drugs as bad. In those crazy 3rd world tribes the shaman does mushrooms, DMT, salvia. He's looked highly upon as some sort of spiritual advisor.

One theory on why LSD is illegal is because it does in fact work well for large scale "mind control". By that I mean go to some conservative college where only the best students are allowed in. You can take a LSD crystal the size of a nickel in which is 10,000 hits. Pour some water on that crystal and soak some blotter paper in that water. Sell that to 2000 kids. Overnight a conservative town is converted liberal. A lot of kids will go from studying law to Egyptian mythology.

I find it interesting that there are more liquor stores where there is poverty. If you go to the ghetto there is a liquor store on every street corner.

The only reason caffeine and nicotine are legal is because it helps capitalism.
 

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Couldn't we also argue that sobriety dampers the truth, at least as much as being drugged enhances it? We might like to think of sobriety as being more objective, but sobriety can also be cynical. Our mood colors our perception and judgment of just about everything, so I am careful not to write something off as "false" just because I'm not feeling it in the moment.

This could also be looked at from situations not involving drugs. People will find "spiritual truths" through many things -- prayer, meditation, what have you -- and no matter the source of the truth, there's always the possibility it will be earth-shattering at first and lacklustre later. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's a non-truth. It just means the novelty of the new perspective has worn off and it doesn't get you giddy like it first did.

I also dislike the mentality of "drugs will only tell you lies" (not attacking your quote; just in general) because I think exploring those lesser known realms of conciousness (consciously!) can provide some seriously cool insight. Even if a particular truth is discovered and later feels empty, you still went through the process of finding that perspective -- and I believe every new perspective gained increases the mind's flexibility.

I like the description that Aldous Huxley uses in The Doors of Perception. He talks about how the brain is a reducing valve. There is such a surplus of stimuli in our world that our brain filters it out to avoid becoming overwhelmed. With certain drugs (Huxley was using mescaline), that valve is opened wider and allows the brain to be cognizant of a much greater flow of stimuli. This waterfall of information can cause the senses to cross, where people "see music" or "taste words." I remember one particular paragraph where Huxley went on and on about how he saw the beautiful, eternal mysterious of the world in a table leg.

So...truth? Probably not to most sober minds. But I think even those potentially silly truths are worth it, for the sheer novelty of finding the meaning of life in a table leg.
No I completely agree. However, all this tells me is that "objectivity" doesn't exist. Sober thoughts put a dampen on drug trip thoughts.... but there is no way of telling which is "right" because there is no objective consciousness to view them from. Thoughts while tripping feel so legit and enlightening... you "know" they're the truth when you're in that place... but when you're not in that place your understanding changes. This says to me that life/truth is far more about moods, feelings and attitudes than it is metaphysical/philosophical knowledge of which we only know that we know little.
 

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No I completely agree. However, all this tells me is that "objectivity" doesn't exist.
And therefore if you think psychotropics serve a purpose, they do. :laughing:

I do see most drugs as windows into a fuller reality. Suppose an alien race came to earth, and their brain was not a reduciving valve, but an organ far more advanced than our own that was able to juggle everything once. Would they not land on our planet and experience some type of acid trip the whole time? It's not like they would be imagining the whole crazy planet of Earth out of nothingness - they'd just be seeing everything at once, which we can only see pieces of at any given time. If someone wants to take a drug that lets them glimpse through this window, I can't blame them. The scenery is seductive out there....
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I agree. That is a very good observation. However, there are things that I have experienced during my flights, that I have spent countless hours thinking about with my sober mindframe, and I still cannot rule them out as bullshit. The thoughts that manifested were obvious truths that I simply, for some reason or another, just overlooked previously. Also you are very right about the moods and feelings thing. As an INTP I think they have tremendously helped me with my emotions.
 

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I've haven't tripped before, but I've studied a lot about psychedelics (including a 350-page social history of LSD :p) so I have a few thoughts on the topic. I used to have a book with a Terrance McKenna interview in it, I'll have to see if I can find it...

I think with any kind of drug-induced revelation, it really boils down to what you want to believe. If you discover something while tripping, it doesn't have to be labeled drug nonsense and shoved under the bed. People have crazy thoughts all the time. The meaning (or lack of meaning) you ascribe to them is personal. For every person who reads McKenna and thinks "This guy is a whack job, he needs to lay off the DMT..." there will be someone who thinks "This guy is spot on! What an astute observation."

This is pretty typist of me, but I think that many intuitives seek out psychedelics as a way of enhancing their natural thought process - that of syncronization, pattern, hidden meaning - while Sensors might seek them out more for the sensual experience. Not that either side is wrong, but they appreciate different aspects of the trip, so even within the drug community you'll have division. People from one side will say "Drugs are serious business; you are abusing them," and people from the other side will say, "You're taking this too seriously, it just a bit of fun." (i.e., Timothy Leary vs. Ken Kesey in The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test)

On a side note - have you ever met someone who was naturally high on life, all the time? They sound suspciously like deadheads when they talk, even if they've never so much as looked at a spliff....So even if no drugs existed, the world would still be full of crazy seekers of hidden meaning.

Thanks everyone for the links, by the way.....this topic is a bit rusty with me and I'm looking forward to the fresh reading.
 

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On a side note - have you ever met someone who was naturally high on life, all the time? They sound suspciously like deadheads when they talk, even if they've never so much as looked at a spliff....So even if no drugs existed, the world would still be full of crazy seekers of hidden meaning.
Yeh, everyone is on their own subjective trip. Ofcourse, we're all in the same ball park... and certain drugs take us to similiar edges of the ball park. IMO one of the reasons that political disagreements and war will never be resolved is because of this difference in everyones perceived reality.

EDIT: well they may be resolved if we all agree to disagree.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
what about the clinical uses of these drugs. I think that these chemicals can prove to be useful (in some cases) for the treatment of depression or even substance abuse. Many people that have substance abuse problems or anything along those lines are typically depressed, or angry or filled with resentment etc.
I do not want to turn this into a spirtual debate or anything, but I also noticed that intp's and even more so intj's seem to be mostly agnostic athiests. I know I was, and I had no clue where to begin when trying to comprehend this "god" thing you know? I'm not really talking about comprehending the Idea of god, but more so, the beneficial feelings of having a purpose in life. Does anyone have any experience with this?
 
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