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Lotus Jester
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Discussion Starter #1
It seems to me that many people who have 1 or more abusive parents, tend to have low self-confidence in themselves as potential romantic partners and as result; tend to be far more prone to relationship self-sabotage.

When we feel devalued by either a parent or any other extremely important person, in our formative years; it tends to make it hard to believe that anyone else could, truly love us and value us as "special" in that way.

In essence, these people tend to experience a kind of cognitive dissonance when being truly cared for by a romantic partner, due to this earlier traumatic devaluing and essentially self-sabotage due to overwhelming anxiety that causes.
 

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It seems to me that many people who have 1 or more abusive parents, tend to have low self-confidence in themselves as potential romantic partners and as result; tend to be far more prone to relationship self-sabotage.

When we feel devalued by either a parent or any other extremely important person, in our formative years; it tends to make it hard to believe that anyone else could, truly love us and value us as "special" in that way.

In essence, these people tend to experience a kind of cognitive dissonance when being truly cared for by a romantic partner, due to this earlier traumatic devaluing and essentially self-sabotage due to overwhelming anxiety that causes.
I wouldn't delete a single letter of what you just wrote, totally agree. Some tend to self sabotage, some tend to over achieving stuff in relationships taking them to upper levels, but basically both extremes end up fighting a ghost that says "this is never good enough or you are not good enough". The disapproval or abuse can be done by any of both parents, I wonder who has more impact (same gender? opposite gender?) seems to me opposite gender because it shapes and influences our image of future interactions with the opposite gender (anyway I mean the gender you feel attracted to).

Years ago had my first encounter with "this", when the biography of X person was being exposed, he did amazing things yet had some traumas at 8 years old (he is still in history books). Then after beating his enemies he is remembered in many great ways but someone said "oh, so he wasn't a great warrior fighting armies, he was just some 8 year old boy... trying to prove he was good enough", damn!!!.

My psychologist friend (the guy) shared with me some great concepts on the previous comment. This guy is a very nice man with many good things in this persona. One day talking about this you mention... he said he didn't want to get married and his GF knows it (also a psychologist) but she sometimes fails to understand he really means it, he enjoys living alone. The point is he said he was very happy with her, why? because from several relationships she actually did very good to him, why?? his words were something like this:

"Because I realized the problems and traumas I had growing up coming from my mother, I was very aware the disapproval came from a woman who is(was) very important to me and my growth as a human being in critical episodes of my life, this got broken... and I knew the healing had to come from a woman, at some point in my life it was evident for this to work I had to get approval, caring and etc from a very important woman in my life (not just any), but the healing had to come from there, not from anywhere else".

 
I always felt like a very happy person just becuase, I didn't need special stuff to "feel" happy. Over the years I've had many diff people telling me how great I perform on this or that (some is very true, some is subjective, personal abilities), I had women after me (not that this means anything to me), none of this felt "special", then found some readings, someone opened my eyes, and magically many things found in books described my home, that was the beginning of really becoming aware.

I still remember the times my mother said to me nobody would ever love me the way I was, because the way I am, that people who "cared" about me didn't really mean it, and others said to care but didn't really knew me and would dump me when they get to know the real me. The list goes on, you can find the old story in the mechanics of narcissistic mother, the golden child and the scapegoat. As many classic cases I'm the one who outperformed the entire family in many aspects, still there was this feeling inside of "this is not enough". At this day my mother still doesn't show any sign of caring about what happened, even worse denied everything but finally got proof on this, yes people around me in the family can't believe what happened. I can't say I don't believe it, just that... can't make any sense of it, there was never an explanation. My family have called me a violent guy, my mother screamed I was going to kill her.

These kind of topics deserve some coffee and donas ñlkasdlñkfjasdlñkfj Long stories.
 

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In essence, these people tend to experience a kind of cognitive dissonance when being truly cared for by a romantic partner, due to this earlier traumatic devaluing and essentially self-sabotage due to overwhelming anxiety that causes.
True, and this can go on for years unless people make sense.

My mother read many psychology books (me too), what's fun is she had stories describing her own behavior and surprise: she said "hey, read this" and implied I was the one with the problem. In her case you can show anything that's bad and she would say "that's him" in many diff ways. The point why I'm sharing this is the long time effects of your initial post in this thread. So:

I found in one of those books a documented case of a set of brothers in therapy. The professional helped them yes, and then over time got the father go to the meetings. He explained in order for the kids (now adult men) to heal, they needed to hear from him that he was sorry for the past. The father refused a bit at first, then got the message and said sorry. The story (again a documented case) states the guys didn't say a single word, it was the therapist talking, and then he added "sir, I'm sorry but you have to get on your knees, the damage has been too much for anyone to believe you are sorry saying those words sitting on a chair". Forgiveness is a long chapter, some things never get back together, but even saying sorry can mean walking the same distance to heal, the same distance you hurt. Some people think is about humilliation, is not. At the end of the day: anyone can say the words "please forgive me".
 

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One of the biggest tools I have used for learning to grow past all the self sabotaging and intense behavior that can be correlated to past unhealthy experiences with primary caregivers is learning to stop and question my motivations and feelings that are influencing me when it comes to attraction.

It certainly helps figure out if its a natural reaction or one built on painful experiences. At times that's all its really good for just as an explanation to help stop myself but I've yet to fully successfully manage to consistently follow through with positive action not influenced by that behavior. Instead I just stop altogether for the most part.

I gotta dash to work but I might come back and expand on this some more.
 

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Both my parents were abusive, as were my grandparents who raised me.

Between all of them they covered just about every type of abuse sans sexual thank God, though my Fathe4 got close at times.

I think the worst was th3 berating and insulting. Always telling me I was incompetent, useless, that I would never be able to anything on my own, that I was crazy, should have been committed ect. For fuck sake my grandmother hired a babysitter when I was 24!

I have more confidence than many people I know even without abusive parents. I think it’s because I never believed them. I always knew that everything they put on me was just a projection of their own emotional issues-which were a great many. As an adult they now admit that I am the most stabled person in the family. My Grandparents have even said that they call me when they want a break from the madness.

What would be interesting to know is why, why I never fell for it. No kid is as useless or incompitant as thier abusive par3nts say they are yet after years of being told as much they start to believe it themselves.

I never did and I can’t say why.
 

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Not really. XD

But my sisters built low self esteem. I don't know why the fuck I'm still shameless regardless of the bad stuffs that's happening or eventhough people are cruel to me


I just learned the life hack, DGAF. XD

Because actually, people's opinion of you or me, is just their own lol. XD

You're still sexy, smart, pretty, and everything. XD

But ofcourse their negative opinions when you don't absorb it. Will just returned back to them and they will be pathethic losers. XD
 

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A question worth thinking about: Do you love your abusive parents?
No. I can't say that I feel anything for them. Except maybe pity.

I don't go out of my way to see them, I don't go out of my way to ignore them. Mom calls a couple times a year and we talk for a bit. She takes me out to dinner on my Birthday, I send her flowers for hers.

Although, I have stopped attempting to speak to my Father. I hosted a great party last Christmas. He wouldn't come because " His back hurt." Which everyone knew was a lie. He was mad that we wouldn't let him bring one of his HS band-buddies.
For Father's day I took a two and a half hr bus ride to my Grandparents place-he lives a block away from them-and he couldn't be bothered to show up then either. The last time I did visit him he just bitched that I "Only visit him when I'm at my Grandparents."
At that point even said grandparents agreed just not visiting at all was the right choice.

Still, I don't hate him. I pity him. He's a nearly sixty yr old man who thinks he's still a teenager in the 70's. The only people in his life are his alcoholic garage band buddies. He isn't even allowed to visit his Grandchildren. One day he is going to die alone and I don't envy him for that.
 

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Lotus Jester
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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
A question worth thinking about: Do you love your abusive parents?
When the person you count on abuses you; you tend to feel either ambivalece or some combo of love/hate. I loved my mother and don't blame her for what she did to me. I sincerely doubt that anyone who had gone though the kind of hell that she had; wouldn't be seriously messed up. I can't even imagine how she even got though it; I'm not sure I would have tbh. :unsure:



 
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I think through therapy I've learned how to value myself a little more, yet I still find myself having the tendencies that are listed in this thread. I guess it's just something people with abusive parents just have to work through. I don't have to tell any of you the difficulties of growing up with these types of parents, as you all already know the pain of it, but how this effects our relationships really shows just how the abuse doesn't just stop once we distance ourselves or make amends with our abusers.

As for if I love my parents, my sad, yet honest answer is no. Through everything, I couldn't find it within me to forgive them, much less love them. I wish I could try and forgive them, but I would have to be a bigger person in order to do that. Maybe one day I'll find it within me to.
 

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So many interesting concepts. Love? I can say loved my mother deeply, I was the one making huge sacrifices, taking care, became her caretaker, support her, etc. My own family says I did great things, all of them except my sister (she is the goldenchild) so she rarely says a positive words about this and sure she was absent most of the time, and when she was present it was about "her". Love? I did love her, now? I feel almost nothing. Answering that question of love well it depends, besides the bad things my mother used to insist on every conversation where I was tring to defend myself: that she was going to die, that I was harming her, going to kill her, etc. You can only "play/abuse" with those concepts to some extent. Anyway when the transformation began (well, exactly when my sister got married) she never came back to give me the feeling of being my mother, to me she was gone. It took me years to deal with it and realize most of the pain I felt wasn't coming from her hurtful words or games, it came from GRIEF. Honestly can say most of the pay feels like she died years ago, it was impossible for me over recent years to recognize my loving mother there. I'm more aware of many things today but it's long to describe. Humanly you can only love so much without getting something in return, specially when you do good and receive bad. At some point I know it wasn't just a disconnection, it was a healthy way to understand: what comes next it's up to her and ON HERself. I'm not responsible for what comes next, specially the things God had to decide.

Very important: "I was the most stable person in the family" Me too. I became like 911, people can call with emergencies and I was the one staying calm and dealing with stuff. Good? ha ha no way. I got people around me even friends and exGFs saying I was very stable, like a rock, a safe harbor (that I am very stable) then also got them telling me stupid hurtful things and if I reacted badly as in not as a dead human, they blamed me for being violent. This scene happened first in my family and only with specific people in my life (non family) people that have issues and I was able to confirm they are not healthy. My point here is that sure I was stable, solid as a rock, but I was also dead as a rock. In my home I wasn't allowed to show any emotions but "everything is ok", I was the one dealing with everyone shit. Took me time to understand people can push you to "shup up is about me" I mean only about them. It took me years and experiments, readings, recording conversations and having witnesses on some situations to understand... that other poeple would kill some of them. I mean I was not human, I was just showing big amazing signs of "nothing affects me, must take care of others, not time for me" this is very usual on narcissistic homes because when a problem happens they want to make it about them. Did they hurt you? tell them, they will say they feel bad on hurting you and need confort, get it? whatever happens it's you who must take care of them, it sucks.

I understood there are cases people can tell you "good... man!" after dealing with some shit, and some people can tell you "good boy" like they say this to a dog for the good job, for dealing with the shit they don't want to deal with. I learned sometimes people want a strong man because they plan to beat the shit out of him and expect him to feel strong and proud on this. Honestly... fuck them.


The previous 2 paragraphs... if you really look at them not only tell a story, but also explain a dynamic directly related to the OP, where being abused in some ways can make you "oh fucking great person" but in terms of wanting to be better and prove better to others, specially to the ones abusing you, after all is from there you need the approval. I know I'm stable, after some time I felt the need to verify this with a psychologist and I was told the same: you are stable, kind and calm. But I was also told "I don't know how you managed to avoid killing someone", this guy worked in the same office than me (professional psychologist) so his observations went beyond our conversations. REMEMBER, as for what has been mentioned in this thread

special value
motivations and feelings
love
emotional stability

When you live on a home where people abuse you, you will be told you don't have special value, your motivations and feelings are wrong, you don't love anyone, you can't!, you lack emotional stability. It doesn't matter if during a discussion the other person is lying and you are not, if the other person is way off and you are calm, you-will-be-told-you-are-doing-it-wrong. I believe the most terrible damage is due to this being inflicted to you when you are too young, when nobody is around to do anything (after all the parent abusing you is also an authority in your life) and the most terrible thing: you are being lead to believe what you are doing well is actually wrong, why? because at the moment even if you tell them "you are lying" they just want to win the argument destroying you or the evidence.

The most terrible discussions in my family are EASY to dissolve as long as you have one person behind the door. The most terrible stuff was performed ALONE when nobody is around, so talking about it meant people find it difficult or just impossible to believe. Now tie this to the topic, where even getting help can be difficult because nobody was present. A professional can spot the true here because after all and I confirm it, it all matches the book (literature) point by point, after all abusers have been documented in their mechanics as well. Sorry for the long post.
 

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A question worth thinking about: Do you love your abusive parents?
I explained a bit on the other post, but I feel like replying to this specifically. I feel I love them in big ways and did my best, even out performed what was expected from me. Now? I moved on. I feel like my last memory of a true parent goes back to many years ago, after that it was all abuse, hurtful words, mind games, etc. I was told "it's normal because of their age" that's false.

The thing is, depending on the abuse, you feel like "love" means you have to be there, and no it's not like that, after all for them: it's all about them. So whatever you do is "you don't love me enough". After struggling on stopping doing things for my family, love wasn't the issue, it was "forgiveness" they pressure me to forgive, they didn't apololized, they yelled "so forgive!!! gon't fill your heart with hate" I mean again: attitudes out of context, I always said I have nothing to forgive, after all there is no hate or bad feelings for them, there is in fact pain, but for myself. Then the last stage to me was stop worrying about their end. WHAT? just like most abusers they are alone, nobody want's to share time with them, and then you have the end of life, when you wonder what's going to be? hell or heaven for them? so I worked hard on myself stopping worrying about this, because after all that's personal, it's them about them, it's them who must do something about it, not me.

I pointed out in the other post how in such cases: never you do is good enough, so you might be struggling a bit with the feeling that whatever you do, is not enough, why? because thats what they fed you since young age, that nothing is good enough, and that everything is about-them, and doesn't matter if people say "oh dude you are amazing to your parents" no way, if good or bad, that's up to the abuser to decide, that's how they try to control you. And that's what you must fight.
 

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How about this also?

I think the overlay for a mother is type 2 enneagram. The mother slides into that role ... some. But heaven forbid the woman actually is a 2. The manipulation and worthlessness wallowing becomes epic. The needer is then the child, and the needed 2 becomes entitled to its own child.

The 2 already suffers from a deflated sense of worth to the external world. The final result is a radiating set of waves of worthlessness, making the 2 the center of all worthlessness and effort. So, then, those closest to that 2, her family, are the next most worthless entities in the world. Friends (there are few understandably) are next most worthless. Then authority figures known. And complete strangers are the most worthy because little is known of them. Downtrodden complete strangers are the pinnacle of all that is good and holy even if they are really hideous people.

My own mother was profoundly 2. A church lady and businesswoman, she was amazingly successful and a story for feminism who NEVER would claim such a liberal political position. She would sacrifice herself for all the worthy people and expect the same sacrifice from us, which she saw as other parts of herself. To my father, who was literally married (at one) with her, there was little but scorn and nagging. I first figuratively and then quite literally fought her away from her badgering of him when I was pre-teen.

I saw the reflection of her in my relationships for years as I struggled to overcome the sense of passive worthlessness I assumed within the family/intimate dynamic. I treated others with an unreasonable sacrificial air. Of course most women do not prefer dealing with a man who is too kind or seems to radiate 2 worthlessness without the charismatic manipulation thrown in which oddly keeps the male 2 in women.

My teens were a rocky place where my seed could find no purchase to quote Raising Arizona, but it was more like Raising Alabama. I was lucky in many other ways, BUT, there are MANY kinds of abuse. Each personality type has an ego fix that is abusive in some way, so, unless the parents are both wise, most everyone is abused as a child. I say this as I acknowledge that in many many ways my parents were indeed quite wise. They just were not wise enough to get past their central ego fixes and that is fairly critical.
 

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A question worth thinking about: Do you love your abusive parents?
I just had an eureka moment, a better way to answer to this question.

It is a good one, but it produces many things inside. First I've seen how in my family and friends many people avoid direct/important questions, easily show cowardy just like in many other areas of life. People who were abused and are not abusers usually don't run away from confrontation or tense moments, they (in this context and OP context) usually became some sort of adults at younger age, or in most cases, the father figures at home, why? well because obviously the parent figure wasn't doing the full job, instead was asking for someone to take charge and deal with the difficult stuff (specially the emotional stuff). So, such a direct question produces internal questionings and trying to come up with the best honest answer, best as in explaining things out.

The previous is the usual opposite of what happens with the rest of the family: always avoiding questions or avoiding taking charge. Back to the abused people in such context, they show in their anwsers a lot of detail and knowledge of themselves and others, their (our) answers are not exclusive about us, but about the whole group and general consequences.

I'm getting close...

As you can see you can find psychos but this is not the case, is people who grew up being kind and showed kindness to their abusive parents (nobody of such group killed them or harmed them, in fact we have to go back to the original topic, they were the abused ones), sure they were /me too the abused ones and it's somehow difficult to put them (us) in dynamics where we are the bad guys.

I'm getting closer...

So while your question is a good one, I guess in many angles we can ask back "did our parents really loved us?" sure, they will say "yes", but there is no explanation to their behavior, right??? I'm still waiting for answers, in most cases each question turned everything into a hell until I decided to stop caring and insist more and more. Surprise, many things that were denied as "it never happened" were then acknoledge and said "I don't know what I did that", and worse, because it wasn't just one episode, it was a chain of abuse, blaming, hurt, still no answer, not to mention no answer to years of denying what they just said.
 
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