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нånD gяênåDê
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Discussion Starter #1
 

Could there be a connection between an Eight's "Big Lie" of maintaining a sense of internal control/power, and an insecure link to 2-growth and 5-disintegration?

 

Could there be a connection between "The Big Lie" of maintaining a sense of internal control (sans help, or twisting words when asking for help to avoid giving up too much power to the potential helper), and an insecure link to 2-growth?

As I become more oriented toward helping others (2), I'm more likely to have moments where I notice the Big Lie (8) and think "You know what? I can ask for help and that's fine because it's merely an assist and there's nothing wrong with that."

Perhaps, conversely, the disintegration to 5 has to do with the mental effort of rumination and rationalization and eventually negation (unhealthy 5) involved in maintaining an illusory sense of control in order to avoid seeking help.

 
Like the pivot point will be the Big Lie cropping up (8), and the disintegration pull will come into play if insecure and seeking to overcompensate internal controls by rationalization (5), while the growing Eight will be pulled with more ease toward allowing people to help them because we ourselves are learning the attitudinal merits of helping others (2).
 

Could the Big Lie revolve completely around autonomy, with 5-disintegration being the result of overcompensatory autonomy and 2-growth being the result of a healthy "team-oriented" sense of autonomy?
 
The example from my life that brought this to light:

I was just thinking about this as I was brushing my teeth this morning. I was gauging, basically, whether or not to lie to someone about something I'm insecure about, and the thought struck me "This seems like a play that somehow involves my image as a competent person"-- My thoughts were centered around asking for help with something.

I realized that asking for help-- and omitting some of the reason why I'd seek such help, and what crafted an automatic lie I was scheming to tell-- wasn't troublesome to me because it would be an indication of a lack of competence.

My immediate thought was-- and has been a recurring theme-- "I know I'm out of control with this thing, and I don't want to indicate that outwardly to anyone."

In simply making the decision to take it on without the conditional of their help being upon it, I could give myself an illusion of having been in control all along.

Even though the move to "take back control" would have been-- if automatic and unexamined-- a simple way to maintain an illusion without anyone knowing any differently (the "big lie" perhaps?), in making the decision to take this control back, I was automatically reinstating a sense of competence and unwittingly placing a buffer between my ambitions and a sense of failing to keep control.

I personally don't care about an occasional lack of control because I know I can nip it in the bud without much thought. I only get kinda in my head about it when I'm not wanting others to usurp some of my control by helping me out with things:

I feel like, if I have to rely on someone else, that I'm giving up internal control to them by allowing them to be an external control. In becoming dependent to even the smallest extent, they have power over me and my mind works in the background to scheme ways to avoid that ever happening. It's where most of my lies throughout my entire life have been generated.

 
 

 
Thoughts?

 
 






 
 

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as I mentioned in the other post, what is "the big lie."????
 

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нånD gяênåDê
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Discussion Starter #3
as I mentioned in the other post, what is "the big lie."????
It's more of a "compulsion" to lie to oneself to maintain a sense of being impervious... to everything. They can become quite complex and "branching" lies, but they all revolve around a core compulsion to generate an illusion of absolute control.
 

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It's more of a "compulsion" to lie to oneself to maintain a sense of being impervious... to everything. They can become quite complex and "branching" lies, but they all revolve around a core compulsion to generate an illusion of absolute control.
Did you make this up? I'm trying to understand.......
 

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Hmm... I've seen it mentioned on the forums recently. Basically, 8s have a propensity for self-deceit. The "Big Lie" is whatever they're telling themselves to maintain their delusion of control and invulnerability.

In my case, probably because of my past practice of tearing down "stories" of mine, all of the "side lies" have been eliminated, and I focus my "Big Lie energy" (which I suspect is the 8-disintegrating 5-rationalization) on simply maintaining something that skirts around the core truth:

I must remain invulnerable --> "dancing around it" as you say --> {thought: "hmm... random musings about competence" rather than actually confronting it as the self-deceit that it is}.

It's been much more difficult to nip this in the bud throughout my life, and I spent a great deal of time dedicating all of my time and energy (to the point of living at a monastery, and getting accepted into a second one and a third one) tearing down all the self-deceptions I'd built up throughout my life.

I'm assuming it was as complex and "So Many Different Auxiliary Lies" as it was in the past because of my Head-Fix being a 5 and its wing being a 6 (leading to rumination and a sort of reflexive fight-or-flight: In my case, fighting with myself by lying to myself incessantly)...

Even my Heart-fix has a 5 wing, too. So, I mean this used to be a huge problem.

 
I don't know of any way, as someone who believes the Core Fix is immutable/unchangeable, to prevent the impulse to generate a Big Lie, other than to just remain diligent and call out its bullshit whenever it comes up.

Remain on a growth arrow-- it's really the best way to preclude the core "hang-up" from cropping up and becoming entrenched in your life.

Your quote, from the other thread, and we are COMPLETELY sidetracking that other thread, and this si a better place to discuss it.

So. EVERYONE lies to themselves. EVERYONE lies to everyone else.

A core part of 8 is most of us, when healthy, seem to have a propensity for truth. We value it, we cherish it, we appreciate it, we give ti as a gift. Not everyone appreciates our TRUTH, so we are known as "straight talkers."

8's often learn to be more direct, and honest, adn truthful, yet "nice" in our own way as we get older. Others will chip in here.

I think people grow up in steps - it is not continuous, but rather like sets of stairs. One of the steps somewhere is the step up to figuring out TRUTH matters.

A later step is figuring out POWER comes with the honesty of admitting your limitations. People give me CREDIT, or power, when I admit and rejoice in the fact I am not great at everything. I am hella good at some things, and pretty shitty at others.

When I can admit this, and figure out what stuff is in what camp, and I admit this, people are like "cool - can you help me moving this fucking elephant sitting on my sister please?" And it turns out I'm pretty damn good at moving elephants and fixing stuff and communicating THINGS, but I kind of really suck at understanding feelings and why people feel the way they do.

Everyone already KNEW I sucked at feelings, but they didnt' want to say anything, cuz they are not 8's and some of them value peace and happy feelings and shit over TRUTH.

So once I know, then I open the door, and they can utilize me where I'm great, and help me where I'm not.

And the big step is realizing this gives me MORE POWER over and with the things I'm good at.

The big lie to me sounds like you have to be great at everything, and if you are not, someone is going to control you.
 

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нånD gяênåDê
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Discussion Starter #6
Your quote, from the other thread, and we are COMPLETELY sidetracking that other thread, and this si a better place to discuss it.
Good call, good call

 
So. EVERYONE lies to themselves. EVERYONE lies to everyone else.
It's more about the unhealthy Eight spinning this lie into a lot of what they do, in order to rationalize something that is basically impossible: Complete Control.

I'm just connecting one part of a hypothesis (Eight's Big Lie) to another (Eight's growth and stress arrows). Can't say if any of it's true. That's Ni for you.

 
A core part of 8 is most of us, when healthy, seem to have a propensity for truth. We value it, we cherish it, we appreciate it, we give ti as a gift. Not everyone appreciates our TRUTH, so we are known as "straight talkers."
That's a common theme in Enneagram isn't it? The unhealthy people basically convince themselves that they're manifesting their Holy Idea (truth) even when they're completely subverting it (the "big lie"). Think Type 9's holy idea of Love, going to being Apathetic (the opposite of love).

Holy Perfection (a sense of objective "right'ness") --> Self-righteousness (completely subjective right'ness projected onto everyone)

Holy Will --> Becoming a door-mat/martyr (a subversion of willpower)

Holy Hope --> dunno how that connects to basically being a Show-Off

Holy Origin (inherent, intrinsic uniqueness) --> Special Snowflake syndrome (constructed, extrinsic uniqueness as validated by others)

Holy Transparency (being able to not get bogged down in the details) --> Nihilism (making everything not matter because you're overwhelmed by all the details)

Holy Faith --> Cynicism (losing faith)

Holy Wisdom (that things are fine as they are) --> Escapism (because things don't feel fine)

 
8's often learn to be more direct, and honest, adn truthful, yet "nice" in our own way as we get older. Others will chip in here.
"Nice." Lol. I'm reveling in not caring anymore. Perhaps I'm regressing.

 
I think people grow up in steps - it is not continuous, but rather like sets of stairs. One of the steps somewhere is the step up to figuring out TRUTH matters.
I know. That's why I feel the need to speak-out against people who seem all caught up in their own "airs" and guiles.

I want to rip the masks off of everyone that's letting their stupidity muck-up the truth.

 
A later step is figuring out POWER comes with the honesty of admitting your limitations. People give me CREDIT, or power, when I admit and rejoice in the fact I am not great at everything. I am hella good at some things, and pretty shitty at others.
I've never thought of it that way. "Absolute power" won't really gain anyone any credit because if you're good at everything, nothing you do will stand out.

 
When I can admit this, and figure out what stuff is in what camp, and I admit this, people are like "cool - can you help me moving this fucking elephant sitting on my sister please?" And it turns out I'm pretty damn good at moving elephants and fixing stuff and communicating THINGS, but I kind of really suck at understanding feelings and why people feel the way they do.
That's perfect. xD

 
Everyone already KNEW I sucked at feelings, but they didnt' want to say anything, cuz they are not 8's and some of them value peace and happy feelings and shit over TRUTH.
Unfortunately, a lot of INFJs are like this, but what's bad isn't that they're like that, but that they try and make everyone assume it's an INFJ thing, and then I look like an asshole for being assertive in comparison to their peace/harmony people-pleasing stuff.

 
So once I know, then I open the door, and they can utilize me where I'm great, and help me where I'm not.
I'm there.

But I don't think I'm at the point where I'm skillfully navigating the whole thing you mentioned about "Credit".

 
And the big step is realizing this gives me MORE POWER over and with the things I'm good at.
Yeah, I realized that this morning brushing my teeth, but I don't think I've internalized the lesson yet.

 
The big lie to me sounds like you have to be great at everything, and if you are not, someone is going to control you.
Hmm, probably.
 

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"the big lie" being specific to an 8 sounds like someone's personal "big lie" projected across being an 8.

EVERYONE lies to themselves and others. That isn't an 8 thing.

The flavor of the big lie, maybe, somewhat.
 

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нånD gяênåDê
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Discussion Starter #8
"the big lie" being specific to an 8 sounds like someone's personal "big lie" projected across being an 8.

EVERYONE lies to themselves and others. That isn't an 8 thing.

The flavor of the big lie, maybe, somewhat.
I think what makes it an "8 thing" (since, yes, everyone lies to themselves) moreso than the lies of other Enneatypes, is that not only is the lie the core /response/ to the loss of Holy Idea, it also becomes the surrogate for that idea (A Distortion of Holy Truth).

I don't think, in any other type, does a hypothesis exist where the self-deception in and of itself becomes generated and more entrenched as a Type spirals into unhealthy levels:

The Big Lie is "Big" because it becomes the "source" of an Eight's aggression whenever it's lack of validity is potentially exposed.

"Big" = Central, is probably what the conjecture is getting at
 

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"the big lie" being specific to an 8 sounds like someone's personal "big lie" projected across being an 8.

EVERYONE lies to themselves and others. That isn't an 8 thing.

The flavor of the big lie, maybe, somewhat.
It comes from Riso and Hudson and how 8s often tend to inflate themselves making great promises etc., but eventually fail to deliver. For example, an 8 can say that they will totally fix this and make this happen but at the end of the day it doesn't matter how much they swear by it, because nothing really changed. A great example of this is Leonardo DiCaprio's character in the movie Revolutionary Road where he keeps telling his wife how he's going to make a difference and improve their situation but ultimately nothing changes.

@Kipposhi made a thread about this some time back.
 

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@Kipposhi made a thread about this some time back.
It was @prsvrnc who made the thread, but @cir and I discussed it at some length. From it, you can see there are different takes on the concept of a "Big Lie", however (too lazy to seek and find the actual thread, sorry). As far as I know, it was only mentioned by Riso and Hudson regarding the unhealthy levels.

In the sense of Denial (the defense), I always felt it was actually tension between the 7 (imagining the world as you want it to be) and 9 (shutting out whatever doesn't accord) in my own case. "Everything will be as I want it to be, and there simply won't be any problems with that". But I generally don't feel the need to lie to myself about appearing in control, or even competent.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
It was @prsvrnc who made the thread, but @cir and I discussed it at some length. From it, you can see there are different takes on the concept of a "Big Lie", however (too lazy to seek and find the actual thread, sorry). As far as I know, it was only mentioned by Riso and Hudson regarding the unhealthy levels.

In the sense of Denial (the defense), I always felt it was actually tension between the 7 (imagining the world as you want it to be) and 9 (shutting out whatever doesn't accord) in my own case. "Everything will be as I want it to be, and there simply won't be any problems with that". But I generally don't feel the need to lie to myself about appearing in control, or even competent.
Damn, well maybe this theory that I pulled out of my ass is novel then?

I can't really cite my sources, so maybe it didn't actually come from anywhere...?
 

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Damn, well maybe this theory that I pulled out of my ass is novel then?

I can't really cite my sources, so maybe it didn't actually come from anywhere...?
Not an accusation. Riso and Hudson are just the only reference I've ever heard to that specific phrase. My own reference to 7 and 9 could be equally construed as being pulled out of my ass--no one ever says why Denial exists, just that it does. Whatever seems true to the individual.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Not an accusation. Riso and Hudson are just the only reference I've ever heard to that specific phrase. My own reference to 7 and 9 could be equally construed as being pulled out of my ass--no one ever says why Denial exists, just that it does. Whatever seems true to the individual.
Hmm... I didn't think you were accusing anything. I think my question's wording was confusing, probably. I literally just meant that I think this might have just been something I thought up on my own and misattributed it to "The Big Lie" proper.
 

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Hmm... I didn't think you were accusing anything. I think my question's wording was confusing, probably. I literally just meant that I think this might have just been something I thought up on my own and misattributed it to "The Big Lie" proper.
That's good, though. It means you're actually thinking about the stuff on a deeper level rather than just reciting information or superficially thinking about your outward traits.
 

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It was @prsvrnc who made the thread, but @cir and I discussed it at some length. From it, you can see there are different takes on the concept of a "Big Lie", however (too lazy to seek and find the actual thread, sorry). As far as I know, it was only mentioned by Riso and Hudson regarding the unhealthy levels.

In the sense of Denial (the defense), I always felt it was actually tension between the 7 (imagining the world as you want it to be) and 9 (shutting out whatever doesn't accord) in my own case. "Everything will be as I want it to be, and there simply won't be any problems with that". But I generally don't feel the need to lie to myself about appearing in control, or even competent.
I like your point about the tension between the two (wing 7 and wing 9). I read a few of your other comments on other threads too. I like the way you blend the information to see the composite picture from all aspects of an Enneagram type that shapes/influences the psychological landscape of the individual.
 

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It's more of a "compulsion" to lie to oneself to maintain a sense of being impervious... to everything.
In order to be impervious, I would have to lose what makes me human. That would be a hollow victory, at best.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
In order to be impervious, I would have to lose what makes me human. That would be a hollow victory, at best.
Here, here! I like your attitude
 
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