[sodden]

The superfluity of tritype and yet it gets so much attention.

 

[Bricolage]

The biggest problem with enneagram is that folks who are familiar with MBTI tend to think that simply taking a test can tell you your enneagram type, when it actually takes weeks (or even months) of research to figure out.

Even then it might not come. You need to know yourself too. :happy:

 

[Mooncutter]

I can kind of see what you're saying here, at least with 5w6's because very few people seem to identify with the subtype and because it seems less specific than 6w5 or 5w4. But what do you actually think is the mechanism for this problem? Is it the descriptions, indicating a failure to misunderstand the wing, or is it actually an organizational problem within the theory? I'd also like to hear why you think the same of the 9w1, as I only somewhat agree with your assessment there.

My problem with Enneagram theory is the conventional understanding of instinctual subtypes. People seem to treat them as a separate base-three personality system without really connecting it to Enneagram, to the point that they describe each subtype as having extremely distinct behaviors and rigid traits. A common description for sp/so, for example, will look just like a phobic 6 description, while an so/sx description may look exactly like an 8 description. I wish people would integrate the subtypes into their understanding of Enneagram in order to better understand how they filter the instincts that manifest in each type. For example, an sp 6 should be very different from an sp 2, because the self-preservation instinct is influencing the behavior of very different types. For an sp/so 6 (such as myself), the 6's needs that are concerned with the self come first, and then the 6's needs that are concerned with larger social order and convention. An sp/so 2 by contrast will focus on the self-preserving 2 needs (which differ greatly from that of the 6), and then of the socially-oriented 2 needs. This is something I wish got a lot more attention.

What you are discussing here is actually very interesting. I just made a website for putting out my theories around this. So you are a 6w5 sp/so. In myers briggs, you are probaby an infp or a intp, am I right in that?

I find if you go to the library, many of the staff will be 5w6's and usually intp's. The N makes them somewhat creative, but it isn't a strong constant driving force in their psyche. The advantage a 5w6 has over a 5w4 is that they are not inherently anti-authoriatarian, and they need less change in their nevironment, they can do the same thing over and over. But they are also less "hippie-ish" and more down to earth.

The reason a 5w6 isn't a "true" subtype is that they don't carry the nervous, everchanging energy of the 6. "Nervous" sounds bad and it can be bad at low psychological health, but it can also be a very good. It's a right brain half funtion. Inspiriation, ideas, intuition, creativity. 6's are inherently sensitive and lack that outside filter (toward the rest of the world) other types have, 8's having the strongest, thickest.

Simply put, 5w6's are one of the most left brain halved, down to earth peole you will meet. They are very cerebral, but they are very level and there aren't too much fluctuations going on in there. They score very well on IQ tests but aren't necessarily "creative". On s higher level, they don't have the right brain halv activity that comes with being a secondary 6.

9w1's. 9w1's have, just like the 9w8, every trait of the 9. But they lack that agression, dominance, anger kind of thinking. Also they don't do to many power plays, their aim isn't go gain power, in work or relationships. They just want harmony. They are pure 9's.

Do 9w1's have that DRIVE of 1's? Some are fairly driven actually but the two laziest people I know are 9w1's. They are 26 and they almost never had a job, still live at home. Actually I got a cousin in Canada who's a 9w1 and he's almost 30 and it's the same deal with him. 9w1's do not have that DRIVE, that activity, that 1's posess, not even in diminished format. Also they aren't perfectionists or have some of the other common mental problems that comes with being a 1.

So I belive it's a theory problem. I believe the enneagram is an AMAZING depiction of reality, of humans. But you see, every tiem something if PERFECT i get suspicious. You how you find out the happiest familly in the neighbourhood with the perfect garden was actually molesting their children? I don't believe in perfection, I believe in reality wihch is infinety complex.

The current model of the enneagram is a mind blowng, mind expanding, mind breakingngly good description of that reality. I just believe there are tow minor flaws, and they are the fact that the 9w1 and the 5w6 aren't "true" subtypes because they don't carry that traits of their secondary wing in diminished form.

Think of all the people you know or have met, and compare what I say to them.

 

[Beanie]

Two issues, not with the enneagram per se but with understanding of it.


1. The enneagram is not a static symbol and unless you see it in dynamic movement, within yourself, you're seeing very little of it.

2. It can become a parlour game.

 

[Mooncutter]

The fact that the 5w6 and 9w1 aren’t true subtypes

I wrote two posts earlier, but here's an expanded answer. :crazy:


The biggest problem with the enneagram is that the 5w6 and 9w1 aren’t true subtypes. Allow me to explain. A “true” subtype carry the characteristics of the secondary wing, just weaker and in integrated form with primary type. We see this in all subtypes except the 9w1 and 5w6.


The 9w1

In the 9w1 there isn’t a weaker version of the 1 lurking in the background. If it was there, 9w1′s would have a higher than average drive, and they would have perfectionist and slightly obsessive tendencies. Instead, 9w1′s are very laid back, they are true experts at “chilling out”. There is nothing “obsessive” about a 9w1. They don’t require perfection to feel good.

9w1′s tend to live life and spread calm and feelgood about them, like a contagious aura that surrounds them. Again contrasting 1′s that bring a fairly intense, in-your-face energy. 1′s aren’t “mellow”.

I believe peace revolutionaries like Buddha and Gandhi might have been 9w1′s. They are experts at making people feel good and make peace. I believe Jesus was a 9w1. I believe it is a common guru configuration, as 9w1′s have a tendency to emit very positive energy. It would be a good configuration for Buddhist monks.

Anyway. The enneagram is a beautiful symbol with godlike aspirations, but I think it’s wrong regarding these subtypes.


The 5w6

The 5w6 isn’t a “true” subtype because there isn’t type 6 energy lurking in the background, to use the exact same sentence twice. But it’s true. The 5w6 isn’t more nervous than average, it isn’t more fearful than average, it doesn’t fear being physically hurt more than average. It doesn’t sleep with one eye open, it never gets even a little bit counter phobic and it doesn’t look towards authority for acceptance/compliance/confirmation.

Average = Put all nine types in a pool, and divide by nine, that’s “average”.

The 5w6′s relationship to authority is a pretty unemotional practical business. They don’t rebel without a cause like 4′s or 6′s or 5w4′s can do. 5w6′s also aren’t “sensitive” like 6′s are. I actually find 5w6′s to be farly tough skinned, more so than 5w4′s who are a little extra sensitive from their 4 wing. In other words – they don’t carry the primary traits of the 6 even in diminished form.

But that’s exactly what they should do if they had 6 as a wing. I’m not expecting the 6 to show through full force here, but I want to see traces of it, remnants of it, I want it to shine through at least occasionally. I’m not seeing that. The 5w6′s are very level headed, calm, and grounded in (observable) reality.

They are drawn to history, as oppose to quantum physics. They are drawn to archeology, as oppose to astrology. They like the tangible, the proven, and don’t go on such wild “mind journeys” as 5w4′s or 4w5′s can.

That’s their advantage; they are more level headed, calm, stable and reliable than the 5w4 who is a little eccentric and unpredictable. 5w6′s are better at following “the red line”, in mind, speech and in life. A 5w6 is more reliable than a 5w4, because it doesn’t have a 4 wing and the emotional fluctuations are fewer (or weaker).

There isn’t that much “crazy scientist” over a 5w6, there is just “scientist”. To me the 5w6′s appear more like pure 5′s. They carry all the traits of the 5, and don’t really seem to have a “wing”. My judgement on 9w1′s is the same; they act and behave like pure 9′s would, without a wing.

 

[d e c a d e n t]

The biggest problem with the enneagram is that the 5w6 and 9w1 aren’t true subtypes. Allow me to explain. A “true” subtype carry the characteristics of the secondary wing, just weaker and in integrated form with primary type. We see this in all subtypes except the 9w1 and 5w6.

How can you know? Have you met all the 9w1s and 5w6s in the world?

In the 9w1 there isn’t a weaker version of the 1 lurking in the background. If it was there, 9w1′s would have a higher than average drive, and they would have perfectionist and slightly obsessive tendencies. Instead, 9w1′s are very laid back, they are true experts at “chilling out”. There is nothing “obsessive” about a 9w1. They don’t require perfection to feel good.

Again, how can you know? Maybe they are just so good at suppressing their perfectionist side that you usually don't notice them. Some 9w1s can be very perfectionist. I know I can be, although I don't have the drive to follow through with it most of the time.

I believe it is a common guru configuration, as 9w1′s have a tendency to omit very positive energy.

By the way, I think you want the word "emit." Omitting positive energy would not be so positive.

The 5w6 isn’t a “true” subtype because there isn’t type 6 energy lurking in the background, to use the exact same sentence twice. But it’s true. The 5w6 isn’t more nervous than average, it isn’t more fearful than average, it doesn’t fear being physically hurt more than average. It doesn’t sleep with one eye open, it never gets even a little bit counter phobic and it doesn’t look towards authority for acceptance/compliance/confirmation.

Do you watch 5w6s in their sleep or something? :tongue:

(Not being a 5w6, I'm not so sure what to say about them, though.)

 

[Mooncutter]

something something

How can you know? Have you met all the 9w1s and 5w6s in the world?


Again, how can you know? Maybe they are just so good at suppressing their perfectionist side that you usually don't notice them. Some 9w1s can be very perfectionist. I know I can be, although I don't have the drive to follow through with it most of the time.


By the way, I think you want the word "emit." Omitting positive energy would not be so positive.


Do you watch 5w6s in their sleep or something? :tongue:

(Not being a 5w6, I'm not so sure what to say about them, though.)

Can't believe I'm saying this, but no I have not met all 9w1's in the world. I've met a few.

So you disagree with me when I say that 9w1 lack characteristics of the 1? You're a 9w1 assuming you typed yourself correctly, do you find that you can relate to type 1 way more than the other other types that isn't a 9? do you find those traits in yourself to an exaggerated extent?

Everybody has weak version of every type in them, but if it's your wing then it has to be WAY more pronounced than the other types that aren't part of your configuration at all. If you look at friends and perhaps family, do you find the 9w1's there to have moderately or fairly strong characteristics of a 1?

Because I got to call it like I see it, and I don't see that at all, like I say in my theory. 5w6 definately aren't "on their watch" if you know what I mean. They are very calm and collected and not "edgy" at all.

I believe there are signs on the outside from what's going on on the inside. And if they don't show themselves right away they show up over time. If you don't look for any kind of "evidence" or any kind of practical implication, then I feel you are in total lala-land at this point. Because then you can just make up stuff without it being supported by observation.

Correcting the misspelling now!! :crazy: