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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I think one of the main problems with porn is that it conditions people to be aroused by voyeurism and unending novelty, and away from first person interaction.

Also mainstream porn is getting more and more inclined towards mixing in violence and sex. There's a mainstream site that features very popular pornstars and basically shows simulated rape scenes, but I think it has mainstream acceptance because the women don't verball protest; they may fight, or say 'what are you doing?' but they never say 'no', 'stop' or 'please don't do this'. And the women eventually begin to get aroused and orgasm by what initially started as out as rape.

Another genre of porn that's gaining popularity is 'gagging', this genre is explicity about using a woman as a sexual object that deserves no empathy. Often the women will gag, become teary eyed, and have difficulty breathing.

Recently I quit porn after I realized that porn was supernormal stimuli, and that I was conditioning myself away from genuine sensation and physical contact. And one of the things that disturbed me about my porn use is that I realized I was increaslingly becoming aroused by female discomfort.

I think the movie surrogates with Bruce Willis is a good allegory for porn's effect on society.


Basically I think porn is to sex, what Mcdonalds is to nutrition.

Myths of Porn

Articles on Porn Addiction & Sexuality | Your Brain On Porn


Please share your thoughts.
 

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ALOT of porn is smut and I can't stand it. I can't watch gagging, or gangbangs, or humiliations of men or women. Its disgusting and animialistic. I stick to normal people having normal sex which is why if I do watch porn, it will be amateur or homemade stuff. What I hate the most about modern porn is that it is convincing men and women that its normal. Its not. I'd break up with someone if they asked me to ever do most of that stuff. Anal isn't even daring anymore. People are trying anal before vaginal. Because of porn and the sex driven media, I've actually considered becoming celibate for a few years. It just gets to be too much after a while. Makes a person need a damn detox.
 

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From what I can see, companies rushed to cash in on things that used to be niche stuff. I can still remember a time when this trash wasn't commonly accepted, but a market grew out of it due to shady companies realizing there are people out there who will pay money for stuff that they'd otherwise have a hard time getting - problem is that so many companies had the same idea that they've flooded the market with garbage and it's prevailing now.
 

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I agree with your basic argument (re. voyeurism and novelty), but it's unclear to me why voyeurism is an inherently unhealthy sexual practice. Obviously if someone wants to be aroused by their partner but is unable to because of the amount of porn they consume, there is a "problem". But people are attracted to voyeurism for all sorts of reasons and I'm not sure that porn does condition people into voyeuristic sexuality to that extent: there are lots of things about first person interaction that porn will always, by nature, lack and many of them are more exciting than the novel expression of voyeurism that porn provides, e.g. smell, taste, touch.

One of the problems with making any kind of argument about what porn is or isn't or what porn does or does not do is that defining pornography is notoriously difficult. There are many, many, many, many things that can be considered pornographic and the distinction itself is largely subjective. Yes, violent porn exists, but so do many other genres and not everyone enjoys or watches violent porn, women and men included.

It's also worth pointing out that people consume porn in different ways. Queuing up several clips at once and skipping ahead to the most explicit parts is drastically different than watching something from start to finish is, and in the case of the latter, I can't see how it's really any different than reading erotica or something of a similar nature. Some people watch porn alone, others watch it with their partners. Although the voyeurism aspect remains, there is a difference between watching something alone and watching something with other people -- depending on how you watch, the latter can more or less be a social activity.

I would also point out that the violent sexuality that is expressed against women in "mainstream" porn also shows up in a lot of other places -- advertising, music, film, television, theatre, literature -- so I don't know how useful it is to point a finger at porn specifically. I agree that that kind of violence is highly problematic and disturbing, but I don't think that it's possible to assign strict causality between what happens in pornography and what happens in the real world. Although it's tempting to think that we all consume media like passive drones, most people do engage with the things that they see, as is evidenced by your analysis of the porn you used to watch. And I think that it's really great to think critically about these things, but I don't think that it's fair to suggest that people who watch porn don't do the same. I'm not trying to say that we aren't influenced by the media, but it is to point out that you can be aroused by something as a fantasy that you would never act on in reality (for many reasons, but one of them is that it simply isn't appealing).

Pornography has been around for centuries, although in different forms, and I don't know if it's possible to make the argument that it has been denigrating 'natural' sexuality since its creation (and how do we begin to define natural sexuality?), so I think that it's worth pointing out that the problem may not be with porn in and of itself but with the form that porn takes under capitalism, especially in the age of the internet.
 

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I am a porn addict with social anxiety disorder, depression, and generally bad mental health. I think I would still have the same problems even if I wasn't addicted to porn. I have tried to quit because I do waste too much time on porn and it does get me depressed reminding me this is the closest to sex I get to experience(once again my fault completely. Porn isn't the cause of my complete abstence of luck with dating and relationships). I have tried limited porn to hentai since I tend to be very picky about what hentai I read or look at and usually more attracted to or critical of the artwork.

Not a very big fan of a lot of the really hardcore porn. Which is why looking up porn takes up so much time. Really hard to find ones that aren't that hardcore. lol
 

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Rough sex does not equate to simulated rape, almost all the porn I see has a little interview beforehand where the girl says that they want to do this and that they enjoy it. I happen to personally know a girl who has a gagging fetish, and their are plenty of girls and guys who enjoy rough sex.

People have their own sexual preferences and aslong as they are not actually raping people it isn't wrong, I reject the notion that soft "normal" sex is the only right way.

It is hypociritcal, why doesn't anyone ever complain that femdom is degrading to men?
 

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I've also quit porn after hearing Gary Wilson's arguments. But we ought to remember that his argument is less about porn itself, and more about overstimulation. The mammalian brain we're all equipped with, is easily aroused by various supersized natural stimuli. We're wired to be aroused when we eat high-energy foods, but in no way are we genetically predispositioned to eat McDonalds, and therefore we get fat. The same kind of addiction to overstimulation, binging, and generally overindulging can happen in pretty much all areas of life. We think of addiction as something requiring a drug, but the brain can get drugged up and dependant on its own chemicals.

After I quit porn, I've come to realize that I was a sex addict. It took that long to realize it, partly because I was in denial, but also because people don't talk about it. "Sex is good for you!", "Masturbation is good for your health!", "Sexual release decreases blood-pressure!". Everyone's constantly talking about how good an active sex-life is, but they neglect to mention that it's only good to a certain extent. My overactive porn and masturbation habits, have made me depressed, lethargic, chronically bored, anxious and socially awkward for must of my life.

Porn, sex and masturbation is perfectly okay for most people, by the way. I just know that I have issues with it, and have made a personal choice to cut down severely for my own personal health reasons.
 

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It is hypociritcal, why doesn't anyone ever complain that femdom is degrading to men?
Probably because femdom is considered a fetish/niche/novelty, whereas violence against/degradation of women is found in "mainstream"/"normal" porn.
 

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I like violent and abusive pornography. I love porno where the woman abuses the fuck out of the guy. More towards the psychological end, but I certainly like to see slapping, spanking, hitting, pinching, biting, burning with cigarettes, etc. My favorites are wives sleeping with another man, while verbally degrading the fuck out of the husband and forcing him to "clean up" afterward. This comes from real life sexual experience. If I could find a woman willing to dominate me in these ways, in real life, I'd be in fucking heaven. Sadly, it's not yet happened. All of the women I've been with, have wanted to be dominated. I do find it odd, that I'm actually disturbed by pornography, that depicts violence and degradation towards women, when I love porn, that depicts all these things towards men. I'll admit there's some sort of conditioning at hand, there. I've had a few partners, who openly expressed being displeased with my inability to pull their hair, bite them, and slap their ass hard enough. It's very hard to be a submissive, masochistic male.
 

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I'm relatively ambivalent towards pornography. In the same way I'm ambivalent towards McDonalds. They have pros and cons, and I try and run my life by the policy of "nothing to excess." I know where my one-on-one interaction sexual lines are, both in what I will do, and what I allow to be done to me. However, if a partner was to harbour a fantasy which crossed one of my lines and pornographic material satisfied that fantasy, I'd probably not care. In fact, it would make sense to me; again, provided the fantasy isn't indulged in to the point of excess.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I would also point out that the violent sexuality that is expressed against women in "mainstream" porn also shows up in a lot of other places -- advertising, music, film, television, theatre, literature -- so I don't know how useful it is to point a finger at porn specifically. I agree that that kind of violence is highly problematic and disturbing, but I don't think that it's possible to assign strict causality between what happens in pornography and what happens in the real world. Although it's tempting to think that we all consume media like passive drones, most people do engage with the things that they see, as is evidenced by your analysis of the porn you used to watch. And I think that it's really great to think critically about these things, but I don't think that it's fair to suggest that people who watch porn don't do the same. I'm not trying to say that we aren't influenced by the media, but it is to point out that you can be aroused by something as a fantasy that you would never act on in reality (for many reasons, but one of them is that it simply isn't appealing).
Sorry if I gave you the impression that I believe watching rape simulation and gagging caused men to what do go out and do those acts - I don't believe that.

I simply find it disturbing that explicit female discomfort is mainstream porn.

Pornography has been around for centuries, although in different forms, and I don't know if it's possible to make the argument that it has been denigrating 'natural' sexuality since its creation (and how do we begin to define natural sexuality?), so I think that it's worth pointing out that the problem may not be with porn in and of itself but with the form that porn takes under capitalism, especially in the age of the internet.
Yes I agree. I actually should have made that clear - the form of porn that is now prevalent is the problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Rough sex does not equate to simulated rape, almost all the porn I see has a little interview beforehand where the girl says that they want to do this and that they enjoy it. I happen to personally know a girl who has a gagging fetish, and their are plenty of girls and guys who enjoy rough sex.
My argument wasn't that I found rough sex disturbing, it was specifically against simulated rape.

Like I said; there is an extremely popular porn site that is self-proclaimed 'the worlds best porn site' (I'm sure you know which one I'm talking about now). And one of their most successful sub-sites involves simulated rape scenarios where the women doesn't explicitly ask the man to stop, and eventually begins to enjoy it (I'm sure you know what site I'm talking about now). There's a difference between simple rough sex and the context of those scenes - it's simulated rape.

If someone is turned on by simulated rape, that's their business. However I think many men would be shocked if they read genuine rape testimonies, and then re-watched the scenes on those sites - because they didn't realize that they were watching simulated rape.

Femdom isn't the most prevalent form of porn IMO and IME.

I disagree that professional porn is sex - it's a product.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I like violent and abusive pornography. I love porno where the woman abuses the fuck out of the guy. More towards the psychological end, but I certainly like to see slapping, spanking, hitting, pinching, biting, burning with cigarettes, etc. My favorites are wives sleeping with another man, while verbally degrading the fuck out of the husband and forcing him to "clean up" afterward. This comes from real life sexual experience. If I could find a woman willing to dominate me in these ways, in real life, I'd be in fucking heaven. Sadly, it's not yet happened. All of the women I've been with, have wanted to be dominated. I do find it odd, that I'm actually disturbed by pornography, that depicts violence and degradation towards women, when I love porn, that depicts all these things towards men. I'll admit there's some sort of conditioning at hand, there. I've had a few partners, who openly expressed being displeased with my inability to pull their hair, bite them, and slap their ass hard enough. It's very hard to be a submissive, masochistic male.
Excellent trolling.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I've also quit porn after hearing Gary Wilson's arguments. But we ought to remember that his argument is less about porn itself, and more about overstimulation.
My personal decision wasn't just based on Gary Wilson, it was also based on Robert Jenson's arguments. And actually an Andy Thomson lecture on religion, in which he talked about how and why fast food is supernormal stimuli - it helped me to realize that porn is supernormal stimuli.

Also it was based on transactional analysis - the parent-child ego state dynamics that I often saw depicted in scenario based porn made me increasingly uncomfortable.

 

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I think one of the main problems with porn is that it conditions people to be aroused by voyeurism and unending novelty, and away from first person interaction.

Also mainstream porn is getting more and more inclined towards mixing in violence and sex. A mainstream site that features very popular pornstars and basically shows simulated rape scenes, but I think it has mainstream acceptance because the women don't verball protest; they may fight, or say 'what are you doing?' but they never say 'no' 'stop' or 'please don't do this'. And they the women eventually begin to get aroused and orgasm but what initially started as out as rape.

Another genre of porn that's gaining popularity is 'gagging', this genre is explicity about using a woman as a sexual object that deserves no empathy. Often the women will gag, become teary eyed, and have difficulty breathing.

Recently I quit porn after realized that porn was supernormal stimuli, and that I was conditioning myself away from genuine sensation and physical contact. And one of the things that disturbed me about my porn use is that I realized I aroused by female discomfort.

I think the movie surrogates with Bruce Willis is a good allegory for porn's effect on society.


Basically I think porn is to sex, what Mcdonalds is to nutrition.

Myths of Porn

Articles on Porn Addiction & Sexuality | Your Brain On Porn


Please share your thoughts.

it is a 3 parter, watch it all if u want to learn, Don't watch it if you tend to ignore any facts presented to you that prove you wrong
 

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Discussion Starter #18

it is a 3 parter, watch it all if u want to learn, Don't watch it if you tend to ignore any facts presented to you that prove you wrong
I watched it. I generally like Penn and Teller, but you have to remember that in order to make their show entertaining they find the most 'extreme' arguments against something that they support. But they are generally insightful.

If you think that 3 parter debunks my perspective, you've either strawmanned me or haven't read anything I've written.

I haven't stated that I desire legislation against porn - and I don't. You can dislike or believe that something is harmful without demanding legislation against it.

Nor have I stated that porn causes people to be sexual criminals, and I don't - I already stated that explicitly in a previous post.

I haven't stated that my perspective is based on scientific research - it's based on introspection and contemplation.

For example; Would you want your daughter or sister to be a porn star? And if not why? (I'm not asking about other career choices, I'm specifically asking about professional porn).

Professional porn is a marketed and tailored product - I don't think there is anything wrong with contemplating and discussing the effects of this products effect on ourselves and society.
 

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Sorry if I gave you the impression that I believe watching rape simulation and gagging caused men to what do go out and do those acts - I don't believe that.

I simply find it disturbing that explicit female discomfort is mainstream porn.
No, I know you didn't. I wasn't accrediting that to you, I was just thinking out loud because it's an argument that often gets brought up in discussions of porn and I wanted to talk about it :tongue:

My main point was that it seems a bit disingenuous to target porn in terms of explicit visual representations of women being hurt, raped, beaten, etc. in porn when there are visual representations of women being hurt, raped, beaten, etc. everywhere. By all means, it's something that we ought to be concerned about, but the scope is a lot larger than porn.

High fashion advertising is probably where it becomes most explicit, but it also is a prevalent theme in television, film, regular advertising, and music videos. I'm going to post some photos under spoiler tags because they're quite upsetting. Feel free to skip over them if it bothers you, but I'll make the point that that these pictures aren't exceptional by any means for high fashion ads.

 







As Marina Delvecchio points out, "[Artistic teams] argue that this is creative expression, but it surely isn’t. And if it is, then what are they creatively expressing—that violence and brutality become women? That it is OK and commonplace to fantasize over dead or assaulted women? That they’re sexier and hotter when they’re dead, lying in a pool of their own blood?"

It's strong language, but it's a very valid point. Dead women are everywhere in the media. Battered women are everywhere in the media. And the question that really begs to be asked, is why. Why do advertisers think that we would buy a product when our only association to it is that of graphic violence against women? Why do screenwriters and directors and producers think that we want to see women raped, beaten, tortured, and killed while we're unwinding in front of the television after work?

The Parents Television Council found that there’s been a 400 percent increase in the depiction of teen girls as victims across all networks from 2004 to 2009. Incidences of violence against women on ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC rose 120 percent from 2004 to 2009, while other types of violence during the same time frame increased only 2 percent. The most frequent type of violence shown is beating (29%), followed by credible threats of violence (18%), shooting (11%), rape (8%), stabbing (6%), and torture (2%). Violence against women tends to be depicted rather than just described, and that of the above violent storylines, the acts resulted in the woman’s death 19 percent of the time.

Like I said before, I more or less agree with you, but what I'm trying to get at is that violence against women is a much more widespread problem than simply what is depicted in mainstream porn. It happens in the media literally everywhere, and more importantly, it happens in real life -- and so it's really important not to present what happens in porn as an isolated incident. Sorry for the slight derail and I apologise for beating the dead horse, but I wanted to make my point more clearly since it seems like you only responded to the last sentence of what you quoted.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
@knittigan

Thanks for your posts, and I agree that the topic of female depictions in advertising is a topic worthy of discussion.

TBH your sentiment is a pretty common one that I've observed in numerous discussion, a person bring up a topic and someone complains that they are ignoring related issues.

My basic reply is; for the purposes of constructive discussion we have to have a foundational context/topic, without it we would literally talk about everything - because everything is literally interconnected. If we didn't limit our focus discussions would become incredibly convoluted and devoid of context.
 
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