[Tridentus]

When I was in my seminar yesterday, the lecturer (an ENFP) was describing how a big key in job satisfaction is the ability to enter "flow", and how that happens. Basically we were talking about how in order to enter that perfect balance of flow- someone needs to be challenged, but toward just the right point toward the edge of their capabilities. Too difficult and the experience is frustrating and not satisfying, too easy and the experience becomes boring and disengaging. (I love my degree so much- I actually find my experience of discussion on here to be incredibly useful in those seminars, because it's all about how self-actualisation balances with the world we live in)

This made me think about Ne, and how it manifests itself. We are the type that processes things quickly, we can reach competent levels very easily because we are able to fast-track learning for ourselves, but perhaps we run into walls when we try to achieve levels of depth that for example our INFJ counterparts specialise in..

However, how does this relate to flow? I know from my own experience growing up, I always got things quicker than most- and my new realisation is that this actually hindered me about as much as it helped. At least within the current educational structure. I was always the laziest person in my classes, but as you can tell from my many essays on this forum- I'm certainly not lazy when I feel engaged.

With this increased level of self-awareness, I look back on my developmental years, and that was basically the story of my education, and ultimately shaped a lot of my character today. Until about 16-17 I spent every class bored out of my mind- learning seemed like crossing the Ts and dotting the Is for many years. I knew I could cram revision and get an A, so what was the point of listening in class or doing homework?


Now I realise it has had a profound effect on me in adult life- grinding is just not something I've ever done for prolonged periods of time, but adult society is full of that necessity in every field. Education was supposed to shape me into someone prepared to graft in order to break free of medicrity, but that was never the case for me, and now that is catching up to bite me in the ass.

How do you guys relate to this notion?

 

[kaleidoscope]

UGHHH I relate so much.

When I'm taking on something new, I'm often motivated, engaged and challenged. I'm just excited by something novel, and I (usually) quickly master whatever it is I'm learning, almost too fast. People are impressed, they're thinking great, kalei is going to rock, she's already got this down. Right? Wrong. After I've mastered the topic or the skill at hand, I'm no longer challenged. I start getting lazy, and slacking off. I procrastinate and put things off in favor of more engaging things and.. all that excitement and motivation are no longer really there :\ The biggest motivator that remains is fear of consequences, lol.

I think the need to have things be just the right kind of challenging is key. I get frustrated when it's too difficult, and if it's too easy, I lose interest the moment I know what I need to do and I'm no longer trying to solve that puzzle. It worries me because I know that at some point, I'm going to have to deal with the daily grind at pretty much any job I land: doing the same thing every day, and it's not always going to be the right amount of challenging. I'm not sure how to keep myself interested when this happens :\

 

[Falling Foxes]

Wow.

You have actually just put into words what I've been struggling to work out right now. Recently I've come to the realisation that I was good at being a student. Scratching the surface of various subjects kept me engaged enough and I enjoyed school because I knew how to master it naturally because Ne-Te was designed for educational system. But now in my professional life I'm expected to master just one subject. Going into that amount of depth and dedication day in and day out for one thing is something I'm seriously struggling with. I used to motivate myself with success, that's not much use when there's no obvious success happening now.

I keep thinking maybe I can find a career which needs a Jack of all trades skillset?

 

[Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar]

When I was in my seminar yesterday, the lecturer (an ENFP) was describing how a big key in job satisfaction is the ability to enter "flow", and how that happens. Basically we were talking about how in order to enter that perfect balance of flow- someone needs to be challenged, but toward just the right point toward the edge of their capabilities. Too difficult and the experience is frustrating and not satisfying, too easy and the experience becomes boring and disengaging. (I love my degree so much- I actually find my experience of discussion on here to be incredibly useful in those seminars, because it's all about how self-actualisation balances with the world we live in)

This made me think about Ne, and how it manifests itself. We are the type that processes things quickly, we can reach competent levels very easily because we are able to fast-track learning for ourselves, but perhaps we run into walls when we try to achieve levels of depth that for example our INFJ counterparts specialise in..

However, how does this relate to flow? I know from my own experience growing up, I always got things quicker than most- and my new realisation is that this actually hindered me about as much as it helped. At least within the current educational structure. I was always the laziest person in my classes, but as you can tell from my many essays on this forum- I'm certainly not lazy when I feel engaged.

With this increased level of self-awareness, I look back on my developmental years, and that was basically the story of my education, and ultimately shaped a lot of my character today. Until about 16-17 I spent every class bored out of my mind- learning seemed like crossing the Ts and dotting the Is for many years. I knew I could cram revision and get an A, so what was the point of listening in class or doing homework?


Now I realise it has had a profound effect on me in adult life- grinding is just not something I've ever done for prolonged periods of time, but adult society is full of that necessity in every field. Education was supposed to shape me into someone prepared to graft in order to break free of medicrity, but that was never the case for me, and now that is catching up to bite me in the ass.

How do you guys relate to this notion?

Yeah, found this a big problem with school. I suspect school is pretty much harmful for Ne-doms except for the social aspect which drastically varies in quality anyway. I remember that by the middle of high school, I pretty much hated school, hated the idea of going to job, hated this whole slave lifestyle.
Though I was severely dragged down by my health problems after psychological liquidation in sabotage centers disguised as primary school and private high school to add for the problems with schools designed for slaves.

When it comes to depth, I had my own stuff like modding games and sculpting and painting miniatures. Used to devote about 7 hours a day to sculpting, later 7 hours a day to modding. Then everything collapsed in September of 2005.

I wish I could get back my old abilities that were taken away from me by the cowardly terrorists in 2005 and be an indie game developer.

 

[00Hikaru00]

Not an ENFP but just wanna share my thoughts... if you have not achieved the level of depths in something, you can't exactly say you have "mastered" it. You have merely achieved a significant level of understanding.

I love the way an Ne mind works but also recognised its weakness. It became apparent when I worked with an ENFP who's a visionary guy full of interesting ideas, but short attention span. E.g, he would throw in a biz idea with an overarching concept but no structural details. It can be very hard for others to follow up in any concrete manner. As a Ni-user, I would attempt to build depth to his idea by forcing him back to further discuss the excellent but "half-baked" idea. When Ne and Ni work hand-in-hand without fighting, it can create magic.

I believe developing your inferior-Si will help to balance the negative Ne tendency mentioned in this thread, as I read somewhere that ignoring your inferior-Si will lead to poor focus and continually arriving at dead ends.

*peace*

 

[Llyralen]

@Tridentus. What's your degree? Sounds fascinating and widely applicable.

Okay so sometimes all of these posts and all of our minds somehow start to rock together, I notice. I just replied to your thread on reading and I was thinking how lame it is that I read such hard-core classic literature. I don't nor ever did I read this stuff for class. I was never more than a B+ student even in my Masters degree. English classes basically ruined all the books for me in high school (like I will NEVER read The Scarlett Letter ever again, that teacher beat it like a dead horse). That is, until a very cool teacher my senior year didn't interpret for us but instead asked us what we thought and let us read and then write essays of our choice every day. Okay... the point... there was one.... YES the point! I was thinking what a kind of self-esteem I built reading the super hard stuff and why I did it. Part of why I did it was because it is tough stuff and I think I do get into a flow. I remember once trying to decide to major in art or in chemistry and I remember not being able to abandon the challenge of chemistry. I actually am hooked on mind challenges. I also get into a flow with research-- I think. Every time I've heard of flow I've only heard it applied to physical acts like weaving, painting, sports. So does it apply to reading or research? Like it was almost a type of punishment to push myself through Pride and Predjudice in 6th grade. Even now, George Elliot who wrote my favorite, although super tough read, "Middlemarch" is also a near-punishment, but I love it. Also... like I pride myself on this and then I feel so stupid for being proud of it too, like who likes this stuff?
And this is also going to sound so egotistical here, this next thing I'm going to say... I remember watching the Olympics some years ago, watching Lindsey Voss win a gold metal and it was thrilling and I remember I suddenly saw myself in a weird kinship with her. I turned to my husband and I said, "I'm like her! I can't stop researching. Like no matter what, no matter what challenge is in front of me, I'm never going to stop until I know EVERYTHING!" And my husband just nodded in agreement and said "Yep, I see it."
I read archeology transcripts for crying out loud. 20 pages on 1 grave kind of stuff. Like I go DEEP into a few of my interests-- research is probably one of my top 3 features. Is this flow?
I said I would go read or write and instead I'm doing this. Do you think procrastination is something we could get a "flow" at? (joking and half-earnest)
Actually, what is the ENFP procrastination thing all about? Great ideas but why the poor follow-through? For me right now because I'm not sure I like my results....in my head my book is amazing. Is there more to our procrastination than just that we like the idea part best? Is it that the execution doesn't stack up? Oh I hope not! I never thought so before. Like I think my ideas at work actually function well.
Our flow is basically with the ideas themselves? Your thoughts please? Everyone?

 

[Tridentus]

@Alesha
Yep that is absolutely flow in my book- most particularly when you're good at something or you've built up a skillset, to then continue to be challenged and gain satisfaction. Actually when you mention procrastination it fits perfectly with the ideas we've both mentioned I feel- I remember discussing why I procrastinate with a psychology lecturer in my 1st year Undergrad, she basically described it as the same thing where I probably like the thrill and feel more engaged when I feel that there is a challenge there. It only takes momentary self-reflection for me to know there's truth to that- there's something enjoyable to me about being bunkered in the library whacking things out as fast as I can at the very edge of my capabilities, where I have to be efficient, resilient and engaged because I just barely left myself enough time.

I'm doing an MA in Careers Guidance and Management. I'm hoping to get into a careers team at a university as a start, but my ultimate sight at the moment would be to look at setting up a skype business. GOD that would be my dream- work whenever I want, travel if I want to and still be able to work. The sector will never be huge, but I'm anticipating growth, because of the upheavals in the structure of working life, which are only going to accelerate, there is going to be a gap in self-reflective and perceptive skills in the workforce as people lose their jobs to technology, neo-liberalism, globalism, etc. and they're thrust into a new working paradigm. That's my theory, I don't think too many people would disagree. There's also just a change in culture where people are more self-reflective and more conscious of personal satisfaction, etc. now.

 

[Llyralen]

@Tridentus
I hope the skype business happens! An interesting field and sounds like a perfect fit.
Procrastination is a flow thing,yup!
I also hear a reoccurring idea running through this post that I want to bring forward. I don't like following step-by-step something someone has written like a curriculum. It is uninspiring, right? Also learning about a teacher's agenda of the symbolism of the green light in The Great Gatsby, for instance, instead of being able to experience it resonating in Fi for myself I love critiquing books! LOVE IT! But it should be in original essays (not my teacher's regurgitated lecture) and/or (better yet) free discussion.
i think school does need some reforms. School is much less about true learning and much more about, "Can you play the school game?" I bet a bunch of us have a better formed opinion than me on this and I would love to hear it.