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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Are there any books out there that discuss a connection?

The glia brain operates from our literal brain, our literal heart and our literal gut.

Very simplistically put (as in, there is a TREMENDOUS amount of information that can be delved into on this subject and this is only a microscopic part and I acknowledge that), our "brain" consists of more than just our literal brain. Parts of the intelligent information we receive consciously and unconsciously literally come from other parts of our bodies.

Since the enneagram purports that people in different "centers" operate from motives connected to one of these three places as well (and also explains we all have a connection to all three places), it makes sense to me that these two ideas are intrinsically connected.

I'd like to read a book someone has written on the subject. If there isn't one....perhaps I'll try to write one myself.:laughing:
 

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glia are non-neuron cells in the brain that are not especially well understood but widely hypothesized to have various metabolic functions that assist in the propagation of neural signals.

while i am no expert on the biochemistry of glia, what the hell could glia possibly have to do with hypothesized high-level psychic structures enneagram centers? how would you even begin to study this? this reeks of nonsense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
LOL. Thanks. I'm not talking about psychic information and I'm not claiming to know everything or that everything that has been hypothesized about glia in the vaious sources I've read is necessarily fact. Anything I would write would be merely a compilation of other people's findings and ideas for fun. You certainly don't have to agree with any of it. Thanks for your input. :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Give me a little time today to compile a list of resources for you. I do respect your insistence on providing sources to back up claims. I have insisted on the same myself. You might notice, however, that I did not post my thread in the debate section and the essence of my post is a request for information, not an assertion that I have all the answers. Though I may have worded my set-up about glia in such a way that it appears I take the information I've read for indisputable fact, I do not. It's simply a concept and a subject that fasinates me, which leads me to hypothesize about possible connections.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The Brain in the Gut

Scientists who study the elaborate systems of nerve cells and neuro-chemicals found in the intestinal tract now tell us that there are about 100 million neurons in that enteric nervous system (ENS), which is being called the “second brain.” (M.D. Gershon, The Second Brain [New York: HarperCollins, 1999]; S. Blakeslee, “Complex and Hidden Brain in gut Makes Stomachaches and Butterflies,” New York times [January 23, 1996])

Dr. Michael Gershon of Columbia University has said, “The relationship between the cerebral and enteric brains is so close that it is easy to become confused about which is doing the talking.” He adds, “The second brain can, whenever it wants, process data picked up by the sensory system and can act on it..., thus it is not a slave to the brain [in the head] but a contrarian brain [in its own right], an independent spirit in the nervous system.” (Michael Gershon, “The Enteric Nervous System: A Second Brain” Hospital Practice [July 1999]).

The Brain in the Heart

For centuries the heart has been known as the source of emotion, courage and wisdom. New research provides a scientific basis to explain how and why the heart affects mental clarity, emotional balance, creativity, and both personal and interpersonal effectiveness. (R.C. Solomon, The Passions: Emotions and the Meaning of Life [Indianapolis: Hacket, 1993; “Science of the Heart,” Institute of Heart Math)

Every one of your heartbeats causes instantaneous whole-body communication as a wave of energy travels through the arteries many times faster than the actual flow of blood. Pressure wave patterns vary with each intricate, rhythmic pattern of the heart, and each of our trillions of cells feels those patterns and is dependent on them in a number of ways.

Recent studies have shown that the coherence of the heart brain’s rhythms can change the effectiveness of the thinking brain, often dramatically. That’s not so surprising when you realize that the heart is the most powerful generator of rhythmic information patterns in the human body. With every beat, the heart not only pumps blood, but also transmits complex patterns of neurological, electromagnetic, hormonal, and pressure information throughout the body.

The heart’s electromagnetic field is approximately five thousand times greater than the field produced by the brain. The electrical changes in feelings transmitted by the heart can be felt and measured at least five feet away, sometimes even ten feet or more. The brain in the heart also has powerful, highly sophisticated computational abilities that enable it to intuitively “read” complex situations and their relevance to you and your goals. (Science of the Heart; P. Langorst, G. Schultz, and M. Lambertz, “Oscillating Neuronal Network of the ‘Common Brain System,’” in K. Miyakawa et al., Mechanisms of Blood Pressure Waves [Tokyo: Japan Scientific Societies Press, 1984]: 257-275; J.A. Armour and J.L. Ardell, Basic and Clinical Neurocardiology [New York: Oxford University Press, 2004]; K.H. Pribram and D. Rozman “Early Childhood Development and Learning: What New Research About the Brain and Heart Tell Us,” White House Conference on Human Development and Learning, San Francisco – 1997; K. H. Pribram, ed., Brain and Values [Mahwah, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum, 1998]; L. Song, G. Schwartz, and L. Russek, “Heart-Focused Attention and Heart-Brain Synchronization: Energetic and Physiological Mechanisms,” Alternative Medicine Therapies in Health and Medicine 4 [5][1998]: 44-62; R. McCraty, M. Atkinson, and W.A. Tiller, “The Effects of Emotions on Short-Term Heart Rate Variability Using Power Spectrum Analysis,” American Journal of Cardiology 76 [1995]: 1089-1093; Armour, and Ardell, Basic and Clinical Neurocardiology; D. Childre and B. Cryer, From chaos to Coherence; J.A. Armour, “Anatomy and Function of the Intrathoracic Neurons Regulating the Heart,” in I. H. Zucker and J.P. Gilmore, eds., Reflex Control of the Circulation [Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press, 1991]; and M. Cantin and J. Genest, “The Heart as an Endocrine Gland,” Clinical and Investigative Medicine 9 [4][1986]: 319-327.
(Some excerpts taken from Get Out of Your Own Way: The 5 Keys to Surpassing Everyone’s Expectations by Robert K. Cooper, Ph.D.)

As you said, the function of the glia, in our literal brain as well as in other parts of our bodies, is not fully understood. But, then, neither is any other part of the brain. To speculate about these things based on our current understanding of the processes that seem related is worthwhile in my opinion. Speculation leads to investigation, at least for me. In order to fully synthesize something and accept it as believable and trustworthy, I need more than just observing that is seems to be true – which is where I’m at with the enneagram. I want there to be more to it. I want to find convincing evidence that is has deeper meaning. I am a 4 afterall! LOL. If my search leads me to the opposite conclusion in the end, so be it.

Thank you for responding to my post.
 

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Scientists who study the elaborate systems of nerve cells and neuro-chemicals found in the intestinal tract now tell us that there are about 100 million neurons in that enteric nervous system (ENS), which is being called the “second brain.” (M.D. Gershon, The Second Brain [New York: HarperCollins, 1999]; S. Blakeslee, “Complex and Hidden Brain in gut Makes Stomachaches and Butterflies,” New York times [January 23, 1996])
i heard of the "second brain" in the enteric nervous system -- as well as the "second brain" consisting of glial cells in the CNS -- they are quite different.

Dr. Michael Gershon of Columbia University has said, “The relationship between the cerebral and enteric brains is so close that it is easy to become confused about which is doing the talking.” He adds, “The second brain can, whenever it wants, process data picked up by the sensory system and can act on it..., thus it is not a slave to the brain [in the head] but a contrarian brain [in its own right], an independent spirit in the nervous system.” (Michael Gershon, “The Enteric Nervous System: A Second Brain” Hospital Practice [July 1999]).
i think that claim is questionable to say the least but of course i haven't read this guy's paper.

The Brain in the Heart

For centuries the heart has been known as the source of emotion, courage and wisdom. New research provides a scientific basis to explain how and why the heart affects mental clarity, emotional balance, creativity, and both personal and interpersonal effectiveness. (R.C. Solomon, The Passions: Emotions and the Meaning of Life [Indianapolis: Hacket, 1993; “Science of the Heart,” Institute of Heart Math)

Every one of your heartbeats causes instantaneous whole-body communication as a wave of energy travels through the arteries many times faster than the actual flow of blood. Pressure wave patterns vary with each intricate, rhythmic pattern of the heart, and each of our trillions of cells feels those patterns and is dependent on them in a number of ways.

Recent studies have shown that the coherence of the heart brain’s rhythms can change the effectiveness of the thinking brain, often dramatically. That’s not so surprising when you realize that the heart is the most powerful generator of rhythmic information patterns in the human body. With every beat, the heart not only pumps blood, but also transmits complex patterns of neurological, electromagnetic, hormonal, and pressure information throughout the body.

The heart’s electromagnetic field is approximately five thousand times greater than the field produced by the brain. The electrical changes in feelings transmitted by the heart can be felt and measured at least five feet away, sometimes even ten feet or more. The brain in the heart also has powerful, highly sophisticated computational abilities that enable it to intuitively “read” complex situations and their relevance to you and your goals. (Science of the Heart; P. Langorst, G. Schultz, and M. Lambertz, “Oscillating Neuronal Network of the ‘Common Brain System,’” in K. Miyakawa et al., Mechanisms of Blood Pressure Waves [Tokyo: Japan Scientific Societies Press, 1984]: 257-275; J.A. Armour and J.L. Ardell, Basic and Clinical Neurocardiology [New York: Oxford University Press, 2004]; K.H. Pribram and D. Rozman “Early Childhood Development and Learning: What New Research About the Brain and Heart Tell Us,” White House Conference on Human Development and Learning, San Francisco – 1997; K. H. Pribram, ed., Brain and Values [Mahwah, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum, 1998]; L. Song, G. Schwartz, and L. Russek, “Heart-Focused Attention and Heart-Brain Synchronization: Energetic and Physiological Mechanisms,” Alternative Medicine Therapies in Health and Medicine 4 [5][1998]: 44-62; R. McCraty, M. Atkinson, and W.A. Tiller, “The Effects of Emotions on Short-Term Heart Rate Variability Using Power Spectrum Analysis,” American Journal of Cardiology 76 [1995]: 1089-1093; Armour, and Ardell, Basic and Clinical Neurocardiology; D. Childre and B. Cryer, From chaos to Coherence; J.A. Armour, “Anatomy and Function of the Intrathoracic Neurons Regulating the Heart,” in I. H. Zucker and J.P. Gilmore, eds., Reflex Control of the Circulation [Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press, 1991]; and M. Cantin and J. Genest, “The Heart as an Endocrine Gland,” Clinical and Investigative Medicine 9 [4][1986]: 319-327.
(Some excerpts taken from Get Out of Your Own Way: The 5 Keys to Surpassing Everyone’s Expectations by Robert K. Cooper, Ph.D.)
based on my knowledge of neuroscience and this simple summary i don't really believe this, but i don't understand the studies that are being referenced here either.

As you said, the function of the glia, in our literal brain as well as in other parts of our bodies, is not fully understood. But, then, neither is any other part of the brain. To speculate about these things based on our current understanding of the processes that seem related is worthwhile in my opinion. Speculation leads to investigation, at least for me. In order to fully synthesize something and accept it as believable and trustworthy, I need more than just observing that is seems to be true – which is where I’m at with the enneagram. I want there to be more to it. I want to find convincing evidence that is has deeper meaning. I am a 4 afterall! LOL. If my search leads me to the opposite conclusion in the end, so be it.

Thank you for responding to my post.
you're welcome.

i can't help noticing that neither of your summaries even mentioned the "glia" brain as components to these secondary systems -- the "glia" brain is sometimes called the second brain primarily because there are all these glial cells in the literal brain whose function we have little concept of.

in the case of the enteric nervous system, there's something very unique going on, but my impression was that the primary tasks of the enteric nervous system were sensory and homeostatic in nature -- as in, those neurons are responsible for mechanoreception on the stomach lining and figuring out when to tell you to stop eating. then again, it's been a long time since i've even thought about the enteric nervous system in some neuro class, and i might be wrong, but i don't think it's fair to begin to make the leap to thinking (which you don't) that the enteric nervous system has anything to do with the high-level personality processes of the gut center. as noted, you haven't made this connection, and appropriately so, in my opinion -- but it leaves me wondering what the point of your thread is about.

in the case of the system that you've described as the "heart" brain, i don't know anything about it and would have to read some of the references here, but i am more skeptical that it subserves any cognitive function (i mean this in a colloquial sense, and not in terms of a jungian cognitive function) that even deserves mention in this discussion.

in sum, the references you list here strike me as having nothing to do with the enneagram or the enneagram centers, and nothing to do with the glia brain either. i think the point of your thread would be clearer if you provided more background and detail of what these brain systems do and what kinds of connections you're making between the neural systems and higher-level processes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Your questions are great and just what I need to help focus my search. I was definitely using an "intuitive leap" in the wording of my OP question which was based on vague recollections of an array of things I've read here and there at different times in my life. You're very right that the sources I provided do not specifically refer to glial cells. During my search to provide the resources I posted, I also looked over some of the information I've read previously about the "glia brain" and considered the fact that I was blurring the two ideas. I will continue to research as time permits and share what I "re-find" with you here to see if I can come up with something anymore convincing. lol. Thanks again! :)
 

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Your questions are great and just what I need to help focus my search. I was definitely using an "intuitive leap" in the wording of my OP question which was based on vague recollections of an array of things I've read here and there at different times in my life. You're very right that the sources I provided do not specifically refer to glial cells. During my search to provide the resources I posted, I also looked over some of the information I've read previously about the "glia brain" and considered the fact that I was blurring the two ideas. I will continue to research as time permits and share what I "re-find" with you here to see if I can come up with something anymore convincing. lol. Thanks again! :)
please continue. i'll probably look into it myself pretty soon.
i'm pretty open minded to studies. If these are correct, I could see how our energy centers would have it's own physical manifestation. makes more sense to me that way. very neat studies.
i believe you messaged me about this. i looked up a bit on it, but I didn't come across anything worded this way. now i understand what you were trying to say. i'd love to do more research on this. i'd like to test myself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
please continue. i'll probably look into it myself pretty soon.
i'm pretty open minded to studies. If these are correct, I could see how our energy centers would have it's own physical manifestation. makes more sense to me that way. very neat studies.
i believe you messaged me about this. i looked up a bit on it, but I didn't come across anything worded this way. now i understand what you were trying to say. i'd love to do more research on this. i'd like to test myself.
Thanks iMaven. While @aestrivex has been a gentleman for the most part and showed a willingness to give at least some credit to my speculations by commenting on my post at all, and I do respect and understand his point of view, it is very nice that what I'm trying to say makes some sense to someone. I am encouraged to continue looking for the possibilities. I will most certainly share more when I can make the time to continue reviewing what I've read in the past that led me to speculate about this and whatever else I can get my hands on.
 

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Thanks iMaven. While @aestrivex has been a gentleman for the most part and showed a willingness to give at least some credit to my speculations by commenting on my post at all, and I do respect and understand his point of view, it is very nice that what I'm trying to say makes some sense to someone. I am encouraged to continue looking for the possibilities. I will most certainly share more when I can make the time to continue reviewing what I've read in the past that led me to speculate about this and whatever else I can get my hands on.

Yeah i'm reading more on it..Introducing Our Second and Third Brains: We Do Think With Our Heart and Instinct - Wellsphere

Imagine the implications of this! Those who live by “their instinct”, or who “listen” to their gut, or who make decisions based on what their heart tells them rather than their logical brain, now know that although that may not necessarily always be the right way to go, but that this clearly shows that in order to make decisions based on all of their knowledge, they should apply not only that which their logical brain tells them, but also what their feeling brain (heart), and their instinctive brain (gut) have given them to understand.
well they have electromagnetic fields, the brain being the strongest.. proof they are energy centers of their own. i don't want to run away with this, though, but i think you're on to something :)


buttt... i don't think there's enough studies (at least not available to me.) so we'd have to do something about that..
 
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