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Do you suffer from this as I do? If so, any idea on how to break free of it?
The eternal quest for meaning
[INFP]
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ლ（ﾟДﾟლ) yeah, but time isn't on my side and life gets disappointing because I can't find meaning in it. Why do I eat, sleep, work and the rest of the stuff that involves "living". What is the point? It feels like I'm just existing.....but for what?
The thought is on my mind and it gets more pressing as life passes me by.
So you are searching for to conclusion of your live? Thats like reading a book from the back.
"The whole of life is just like watching a film. Only it's as though you always get in ten minutes after the big picture has started, and no-one will tell you the plot, so you have to work it out all yourself from the clues."
- Terry Pratchett (Moving Pictures)
I don't know, whom I quoting by this, but: "The meaning of live is to give life meaning."
That is: "working it out all yourself from the clues".
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What do you mean by time not being on your side? Also, what have you done to remedy the situation?
I suffer from this too most of the time but I've come to find meaning in the smallest of gestures. A stranger's smile, an unexpected hello etc. the list goes on. I also read somewhere in the forum, I think it was the advice to INFPs from 30+ INFPs thread that if something makes you feel alive even for the slightest instant, if something stirs something inside, hold on tight to it because chances are, it's going to become a well of happiness. Okay, my rephrasing might be inaccurate but you get the idea. Ever since I read that advice, it stuck and that's what I've been doing ever since. Always on the look out. That's what I did when I saw an opening for an internship for a NGO a couple of months ago. That has been the source of my seemingly infinite supply of energy as of late because I find meaning in the work I do.
Breaking free isn't exactly necessary. It can be a time of deep reflection for you to identify what exactly is missing/causing the feeling. Personally, I realized that I can't live for myself. I have to live for someone. My existence is tied to the Other.
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Dunno if this helps but...
Something I think I'm coming to terms with and am accepting since looking into pop philosophy is; value-judgements (most of the time) have no logical justification. And meaning is a value-judgement IME, so sometimes we can just accept and enjoy the sense of meaning that arises within us without it needing logical justification.
For instance; the theory of evolution evokes within me a sense of connection to all life, and evokes a deep value-judgment that this interconnectivity is significant. That has no logical/objective justifcation, but value-judgements don't by definition.
And the search for meaning IME, is a search for justification of value-judgements - which lead to me getting trapped in the black hole of infinite regress (which I still fall into at times). This justification needs another justification, which need another etc.
I found this helpful intellectually in that regard (though this is about knowledge, I also applied it to my search for meaning);
Something I think I'm coming to terms with and am accepting since looking into pop philosophy is; value-judgements (most of the time) have no logical justification. And meaning is a value-judgement IME, so sometimes we can just accept and enjoy the sense of meaning that arises within us without it needing logical justification.
For instance; the theory of evolution evokes within me a sense of connection to all life, and evokes a deep value-judgment that this interconnectivity is significant. That has no logical/objective justifcation, but value-judgements don't by definition.
And the search for meaning IME, is a search for justification of value-judgements - which lead to me getting trapped in the black hole of infinite regress (which I still fall into at times). This justification needs another justification, which need another etc.
I found this helpful intellectually in that regard (though this is about knowledge, I also applied it to my search for meaning);
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Here's a position I've also found helpful;
Happiness doesn't need a reason.
Be Unreasonable! - Robert Holden, Ph.D. - Heal Your Life
Happiness doesn't need a reason.
Be Unreasonable! - Robert Holden, Ph.D. - Heal Your Life
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So you are searching for to conclusion of your live? Thats like reading a book from the back.
"The whole of life is just like watching a film. Only it's as though you always get in ten minutes after the big picture has started, and no-one will tell you the plot, so you have to work it out all yourself from the clues."
- Terry Pratchett (Moving Pictures)
I don't know, whom I quoting by this, but: "The meaning of live is to give life meaning."
That is: "working it out all yourself from the clues".
yeah from the back to the front. I don't know why I require life to have meaning, my guess was that I'm not an SP and find it hard to "enjoy the moment". Maybe its the intuitive in me...I wish I could live life in the moment like the SP descriptions say. (not sure if it is true for SPs thou)I'm 25 and kinda want to find something that stirs something in me before I get old.
Things I have done so far:
- thought about it for many years now (think ever since I hit 8th grade...that would be about 10 years ago?)
- tried different things and have found that some stuff I thought would be interesting actually makes me fall asleep (saps my energy lol). Have tried engineering, helping people (NGO), counseling, office work, translating, writing, computer science and so on...
- It led me to PerC, to find an answer...so far no luck, thou I have gotten to know myself better..some things even surprised me (how blind I was to my own tendencies).
- I have questioned faith, the meaning of existence many times over...
I see people live life, they are unhappy, getting older with not much truly meaningful on the horizon..they seem lost...just like me. How can they live like that?
\o/ sorry if I'm making people depressed :S isn't my intention. I myself am not all that depressed over this, but in all honesty I'd really like to find an answer.
That thread you mentioned...I think 'll go visit it. Thx
.
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Dude. You're 25. Time is definitely on your side!
Well, people do say that life doesn't begin until 30. If anything, you can hold on to that consolation.Do you think meaning and happiness are correlated? If so, maybe you can change the question and ask what makes you happy instead of what is meaningful for you.
...
As every try to describe "reality" (what ever that is), the typing of personalities is just an idealisation. Other idealisations are for example science, religion or even our perception of said reality. I don't think it's possible to find an idealisation that accounts every aspect of reality. Thus MBTI is just a nice concept to get a little understanding about yourself, but in the end you are not an example of the idealized INFP personality (as the author of infpblog.com names it: "stereotype"). Your behavior just statisicly fits best with it (at the moment?).
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@strangestdude
Wow thx for that! ^^ the approach looks very Te-like. I like it! I need some time to form a proper adaptation of this to my own "situation". Justifying existence doesn't seem to be working at all. Hmm i need to think this through a bit more.
) thx! You are right, what makes me happy is probably what I'm looking for.
Wow thx for that! ^^ the approach looks very Te-like. I like it! I need some time to form a proper adaptation of this to my own "situation". Justifying existence doesn't seem to be working at all. Hmm i need to think this through a bit more.
Dude. You're 25. Time is definitely on your side!
Do you think meaning and happiness are correlated? If so, maybe you can change the question and ask what makes you happy instead of what is meaningful for you.
) thx! You are right, what makes me happy is probably what I'm looking for.
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Yes that would be correct, thou I don't see how me not fitting the INFP stereotype (which is true) fits into the current context? Nobody really fits the stereotypes...do they?
I was also wondering, if one can't find meaning. <.< maybe one could 'make' meaning.
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I learned a few months ago that concepts of the self can be misleading and I could be deluding myself. Back then I thought I was enneagram type 4 and was fairly sure about it. Somehow objective reality ended up providing me with facts leading towards type 6. Even now in this thread my 6-ish side is very evident in my questioning and searching for the "truth". Originally I was blind to this or maybe I chose to be blind to it..idk.It seemed like you tried to explain yourself with the help of the stereotypes. Just wanted to go against this, because there are people who think idealizations are "truth".
What we often think about things may or may not be how things really are and it is not easy seeing objective reality.
In regards to "finding a meaning" I think it really requires looking at it from different perspectives and I should stop trying to justify life needing a meaning, if there is one then if should be already apparent, I just don't see it yet..just like I didn't see how I really was. If it does exist, then is it really important if I'm aware of it or not?
....I really love questioning lol. Guess I sort of have my answer. ^^; it still is a mess thou.
Would really love hearing how others see life. Sharing any little treasures you have found is interesting. So cmon, plz do share the outlook you guys have on this whole thing.
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I think I struggle with something similar. Or so I think. xD
The thing with "finding your own reason", as existentialism prescribes, I personally find... *empty*. Empty as in an empty glass, empty as in not fulfilling, empty as not satisfactory, empty as in "Crap, I need a refill".
It is funny. I do think existentialism is the way to go, meaning, I do believe you, and solely you, are responsible for the meaning to your life (if any). As in I do think that's just the way it is, the 'truth'. But it's cold, it's lonely, it's empty. The truth presents itself, saying, "Take me as I am", but no matter how much I'd like to, I cannot take her as a lover.
I can find a partial explanation to my experience in my upbringing: I was raised as a catholic. I had faith. I had a reason for life, that had an external (outside myself) source. There was something to my "eating, sleeping, working and the rest of the stuff that involves living", that had a meaning other than the meaning I myself gave to it. And that meaning from outside myself, I could trust in it 100%, it would not change, and it was true. It was a pillar of trust.
Until I stopped being a catholic, of course. Which I did quite a few years ago.
But the effect of that upbringing still lingers in my mind. That source outside myself that I could trust, is gone. I now have to trust in myself. I have to look for meaning myself. I have no external standard to compare to, all those things I find personally meaningful. Honestly, yes, I miss being a man of a faith, for that reason. But to have a belief for that reason alone is deception, so I'm not swinging that way. I suppose my stepping away of faith has left a sort of hole, something I was used to, something I trusted, that's why I experience existentialism as "empty".
Perhaps one could say I'm adjusting to existentialism? I don't know.
I can also explain it in the language of MBTI, kinda. Don't burn me if I am wrong on this. ^^;
Assuming I am an INFP, I use Ne, which is a pattern finder whose research field is in the outer world. I take facts and fiction, objects and ideas and look for (hidden) connections. Whatever it is that I perceive, hidden connections or not, I will process with Fi. That means I rationally go through these perceptions and slap a 'value' on it, be it "good", "bad", "right", "wrong". Another way of explaining Fi would be saying that I take my (system of) personal values, compare my perceivings with those values and then slap a value on it. I'm pretty sure the first statement is right and the second false, but it does sort of come down to the same thing in the end.
From that point of view, Ne-Fi is sort of like deduction: "I've been all around the world, seen a million white swans and no black one. I guess black swans don't exist."
Anyways... When I'm using Ne to scan for ideas/facts/etc, but can't find "meaning", my Fi slightly goes out of its mind. I imagine it would say something like: "What do you mean, you can't find meaning?! You used to have a meaning to life from an external source, ask your Si brother, so go have another look! You slacker!" Thus Ne goes back to work. And we start over again. A sort of Ne-Fi or Fi-Ne loop that is being 'carried' by Si.
This, although speculation, is why I *personally* have trouble with trusting existentialism. (Hooo shat I just realized I might have Si lol! Thanks @Rim
)As to how it works for INFP's without that Si-input, I don't know for sure. I'll have to give it some thoughts, but maybe based on what I wrote you can figure it out yourself.
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From what I remember, you used to struggle with your being INFP, like I still am. Ask yourself what type of perspective really matters to you: the perspectives you can draw upon from your inner self or perspectives from outside yourself.
I think it's 'stereotypical' Fi-dom to go with only those perspectives you can conjure yourself, while using both inner and outer perspectives to come to a judgment is more like 'stereotypical' Ne-dom. But still INFPish, in the sense that of course both functions are in the INFP's function stack, but an INFP who also takes in outside perspectives could have either A] exhausted Fi (through Ne-Fi looping), B] developed their skill in silencing Fi, C] matured usage of functions-that-are-not-Fi, D] a mix of the above.
Also, INFP's like things open ended, naturally. Perhaps you have come to value more definite stuff, non-infinity vs infinity. So you experience an inner conflict that has you siding with non-infinity. Blah blah blah.
I speculate. xD
Same, same, same. ^^
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Meh, I ponder the whole meaning to life quite a bit. I had fun as a kid, converted to Catholicism when I was a teenager, ditched it for Agnosticism after seriously considering what I actually do in life as an adult, used Existentialism as a band aid to the gaping wound for meaning, Hedonism was my alcoholic solvent to keep the wound fresh and clean, turned over to considering that there is no meaning what-so-ever to cauterize the mess left behind. Now the question is simply a scar. A reminder, but nothing more.
In a more serious answer though, I'll use different religions, philosophies, ways of life, etc. to succintly state how I view life in different spheres and aspects. I think all of them have something to contribute to the question and eventually (hahahaha prolly more like in a very distant future) we'll have a better idea behind the meaning of life.
For now though, I don't want to bother answering the question. The journey for the truth is enough for me, and I'm quite content seeking out different experiences and sticking with what works to deal with the unknown.
Hell I don't even know if I answered your questions......maybe it's just a tad impossible and that might be the ironic point.
In a more serious answer though, I'll use different religions, philosophies, ways of life, etc. to succintly state how I view life in different spheres and aspects. I think all of them have something to contribute to the question and eventually (hahahaha prolly more like in a very distant future) we'll have a better idea behind the meaning of life.
For now though, I don't want to bother answering the question. The journey for the truth is enough for me, and I'm quite content seeking out different experiences and sticking with what works to deal with the unknown.
Hell I don't even know if I answered your questions......maybe it's just a tad impossible and that might be the ironic point.
I don't think that life doesn't need a meaning. That'd be resigning to the fear of being incapable to live a meaningful life. But it's not needed to know the meaning beforehand. Why'd you bother to read the book, if you knew the ending already? I for myself don't want to know the conclusion of my life. If I knew it, I might search the ways to get there the whole time and be confused rather than amazed by plottwists. I don't think that'd be enjoyable.
I have to add, that "What's the point?" also bugged me many years. So I don't think ones answers have anything to do with idealized personalities. I arrived at my perspectice by giving meaning to my experiences (yay, recursion
).
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i don't know, i'm having a lot of trouble with this the past couple of days. i'm not sure what triggered it, i think perhaps a lot of reading about carl sagan and his wife and a quote by her that is supposed to be uplifting or something but i just find it incredibly depressing.
so DO NOT READ if you think you might get depressed over it, haha:
"When my husband died, because he was so famous and known for not being a believer, many people would come up to me-it still sometimes happens-and ask me if Carl changed at the end and converted to a belief in an afterlife. They also frequently ask me if I think I will see him again. Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again. I don’t ever expect to be reunited with Carl. But, the great thing is that when we were together, for nearly twenty years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief and precious life is. We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting. Every single moment that we were alive and we were together was miraculous-not miraculous in the sense of inexplicable or supernatural. We knew we were beneficiaries of chance. . . . That pure chance could be so generous and so kind. . . . That we could find each other, as Carl wrote so beautifully in Cosmos, you know, in the vastness of space and the immensity of time. . . . That we could be together for twenty years. That is something which sustains me and it’s much more meaningful. . . . The way he treated me and the way I treated him, the way we took care of each other and our family, while he lived. That is so much more important than the idea I will see him someday. I don’t think I’ll ever see Carl again. But I saw him. We saw each other. We found each other in the cosmos, and that was wonderful."
^i'm depressed because this person doesn't believe in god or anything (neither do i) and yet she's totally accepting and okay with the fact that her husband is gone forever and they will never see eachother again and we're all going to die, because "space is cool" or something, and stuff happened, and now it's over. i just can't wrap my mind around how any of that is even remotely comforting.
i mean i'm able to get in moods where i am in awe over the beauty of certain things in life and the wonders and mysteries that are out there BUT it doesn't give me any comfort or sense of "okay"ness because i know of the horrors in life as well.
i am sad
my friend once told me he had a theory. that we're the only species evolved enough to understand we're going to die and so we all went collectively insane from it. that would explain 99% of our behaviour in society today, haha.
annnnnyway... :\
i'm still looking.
if i find anything satisfying i'll let you know!
so DO NOT READ if you think you might get depressed over it, haha:
"When my husband died, because he was so famous and known for not being a believer, many people would come up to me-it still sometimes happens-and ask me if Carl changed at the end and converted to a belief in an afterlife. They also frequently ask me if I think I will see him again. Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again. I don’t ever expect to be reunited with Carl. But, the great thing is that when we were together, for nearly twenty years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief and precious life is. We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting. Every single moment that we were alive and we were together was miraculous-not miraculous in the sense of inexplicable or supernatural. We knew we were beneficiaries of chance. . . . That pure chance could be so generous and so kind. . . . That we could find each other, as Carl wrote so beautifully in Cosmos, you know, in the vastness of space and the immensity of time. . . . That we could be together for twenty years. That is something which sustains me and it’s much more meaningful. . . . The way he treated me and the way I treated him, the way we took care of each other and our family, while he lived. That is so much more important than the idea I will see him someday. I don’t think I’ll ever see Carl again. But I saw him. We saw each other. We found each other in the cosmos, and that was wonderful."
^i'm depressed because this person doesn't believe in god or anything (neither do i) and yet she's totally accepting and okay with the fact that her husband is gone forever and they will never see eachother again and we're all going to die, because "space is cool" or something, and stuff happened, and now it's over. i just can't wrap my mind around how any of that is even remotely comforting.
i mean i'm able to get in moods where i am in awe over the beauty of certain things in life and the wonders and mysteries that are out there BUT it doesn't give me any comfort or sense of "okay"ness because i know of the horrors in life as well.
i am sad
my friend once told me he had a theory. that we're the only species evolved enough to understand we're going to die and so we all went collectively insane from it. that would explain 99% of our behaviour in society today, haha.
annnnnyway... :\
i'm still looking.
if i find anything satisfying i'll let you know!
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