[zobot]

The benefit of investigating gender roles and experiences across MBTI Types, as well as across cultures, is plain: the broader and more diverse the data is, the more reliable it will be for verifying commonalities shared by each personality type.

Luckily for INTP women, our type is rare enough overall, and even less widespread among females, that we were the subjects of a fairly robust, cross-cultural experience inventory (published in the paper INTP Women Across Cultures). Researchers Nancy J. Barger (Organizational Consultant and Trainer) and Linda K. Kirby (Writer and Editor) note several features common among INTP women, summarized in the article's conclusion:

[The] sense of the environment [INTP Women] needed to be their best was similar (independence, time alone, work flexibility). They clearly expressed their sense of being quite different from what their society expected and wanted from women and being identified&by others and by themselves as fitting more into male patterns of thought and behavior.

Of course, we share several quirky features---after all, INTP is one of the "quirkier" MBTI types. Indeed, our unusual nature is one of several reasons why the researchers selected female INTP women, as the focus of their study. Most importantly, however, is our "outsider" status---according to their hypothesis, this is not only according to natural preferences, but also put upon us for a number of socio-cultural reasons:

Why did we choose to start with INTP women?​

According to Isabel Briggs Myers, the preferred type for women in U.S. culture is ESFJ (Myers & McCaulley, 1985, pp. 155-157). Women with preferences for INTP are thus the opposite of the culturally-preferred type for women. Examining the experience of the least-preferred group provides a sharp picture because of the contrast between their natural ways of being and the culturally-prescribed model.

What is the evidence for a preference for ESFJ women in U.S. culture?​

It is well-known that there is a significant difference between reported preferences of men and women in U.S. culture on the thinking-feeling dimension, with 60%-65% of women reporting a preference for feeling, while only 35%-40% of males do so (Myers & McCaulley, 1985, pp. 148-150). Estimates of type preferences for females within U.S. culture show that women are also more likely to prefer E, S, and J than are males in the same large samples (McCaulley, Macdaid, & Kainz, 1985). While the differences on the 100 BARGER, KIRBY other three scales are smaller and must be interpreted cautiously, the trend for reported type for females in the U.S. is clearly ESFJ.

The impact of cultural preferences on type distributions has not been resolved or even much discussed. However, Eduardo Casas, in his work with the MBTI and anglophone Canadians, francophone Canadians, and French students suggests that differences in reported type between different cultural groups provides evidence for cultural values in relationship to type (Casas, 1992). Thus, the fact that women in the U.S. report preferences for E, S, F, and J more than do males in the same culture would provide evidence of cultural values.

Another kind of evidence comes from Portraits of Type (1991), by Avril Thorne and Harrison Gough. Their study analyzes 30 years of data collected about participants at the Institute of Personality Assessment and Research (IPAR) at the University of California at Berkeley. IPAR assessors (trained psychologists) conducted intensive individual interviews, observed group problem-solving tasks and social interactions, and assessed creativity and personal adjustment to arrive at their evaluations of individuals. They then used such instruments as the Adjective Check List (Gough & Heilbrun, 1983) and the California Q-Set (Block, 1986) to describe participants. The observers did not know individuals' types when they recorded their observations.

Thorne and Gough compiled the words and phrases observers used to describe/assess different types and then reported those most highly correlated with a particular type. According to Thorne and Gough, a large number of correlates were significant for both male and female INTPs, making this type one of the most clearly depicted (1991, p. 86).

The words and phrases used most often to describe INTP women were entirely negative. Those used most often to describe male INTPs were mixed some positive and some negative. INTP females were depicted more negatively than women in general and than women of any other type. Female INTP descriptions were also more negative than those for any male type.

It is important to note that Thorne & Gough's sample was a selective group well-educated and creative. The samples included undergraduate students at the University of California at Berkeley, senior-year students at a liberal arts women's college, students in the law school at Berkeley, mathematicians, architects, creative writers, business executives, and other professionals. Participants were generally chosen for their creative accomplishments or potential (1991, pp. 4-5). The INTP women were predominantly mathematicians, law students, and undergraduate students (p. 86).

THORNE & GOUGHS CORRELATED DESCRIPTORS FOR FEMALE INTPS​

Phrases most often used to describe:

• is basically distrustful of people in general; questions their motivations
• keeps people at a distance; avoids close interpersonal relationships
• is subtly negativistic; tends to undermine and obstruct or sabotage
• tends to be self-defensive
• extrapunitive; tends to transfer or project blame

Adjectives most often used to describe:

• distrustful
• sulky
• evasive
• indifferent
• resentful
• defensive
• wary
• unfriendly
• tense

Phrases least often used to describe:

• emphasizes being with others; gregarious
• has social poise and presence; appears socially at ease
• has a clear-cut internally consistent personality
• appears straight-forward, forthright, candid in dealing with others
• is turned to for advice and reassurance

Adjectives least often used to describe:

• tolerant
• appreciative
• helpful
• cooperative
• honest
• warm
• pleasant
• sincere
• sympathetic
• understanding (1991, p. 87)

It may be that this particular group of INTP females was especially poorly developed in type terms, though the percentage of students and successful professionals was similar to the makeup of women in other type groups. Descriptors chosen may also (and we think they do) provide important information about American cultural values for women.

INTP WOMEN AND CULTURAL VALUES​

Our interpretation is that characteristic behaviors of INTPs when displayed by women in the U.S. are interpreted by others in negative ways because of cultural assumptions about how women should be and behave. Whether the descriptors for women in this study were significantly influenced by the cultural biases of the observers, or the behavior and adjustment of these women was influenced by their life experience with cultural/family values is impossible to judge from the evidence. Either may be true or, more likely, the negative picture of INTP women is the result of both these factors. Thus, our beginning hypotheses about INTP women are:

• characteristic behaviors/attitudes of INTPs are viewed in a negative light when they are observed in women in the U.S.;
• this cultural bias may impact the development of INTP women and their ability to express their type preferences in positive ways.

What happens when a culture does not accept or support some types? How is the development of individuals affected by the type biases of family, co-culture, or culture?

We have developed the following hypotheses as a basis for exploring questions related to the impact of culture on type and the interaction of psychological type preferences and cultural values. They underlie our project:102 BARGER, KIRBY

• Every culture has preferred types. Those types will find support and encouragement for developing their preferences.
• People with preferences different from the preferred type may find it more difficult to develop and demonstrate their type.
• People with non-supported preferences may find it difficult to find a place to utilize their gifts.
• People with non-preferred types may disguise or mask their preferences and operate less effectively than they otherwise could.
• Self-esteem is affected positively and negatively for preferred and non-preferred types

The study itself involved an extensive questionaire, distributed to twelve INTP women, each from an ethnically/ nationally diverse background---it spanned the course of the individual's lifetime, and delved deeply into each of several, distinct life-stages. (Here, they are provided in summary---please visit the original article Online, to read more thorough accountings of each woman's interview):

INFORMATION ABOUT INTERVIEWEES​

1. Japanese, late 20s, married, 1 child. Middle class family, middle of three sisters. University education. Creates psychological tests using statistical procedures.
2. Polish Catholic, 39 years old, divorced, 2 children. Professional family, youngest of three children. University education, lawyer.
3. Great Britain, 45 years old, never married, no children. Middle class family, youngest of three children. Commercial course. Now pursuing University degree.
Industry, computers, consulting.
4. New Zealand, 54 years old, separated, 4 grown children. Middle class family, oldest of 5 children. University education as adult. Involved in education and training, first as volunteer, then as paid worker.
5. New Zealand, 46 years old, never married, no children. Middle class family, only child. University education. Teaching, vocational guidance, management development.
6. Francophone Canadian, 39 years old, divorced, 1 child. Middle class family, 2nd of 4 children. University education. Organizational and management training.
7. Barbados, British colonial family, lived in Canada since 18 years old, late 30s, married, 3 children. Middle class family, part of *********** group in a country 90% black. Nursing education. Part-time nurse, volunteer in adult education.
8. Anglophone Canadian, mid-30s, never married, no children. Grew up on farm in Ontario, small town, oldest of 5 children. University education, with some graduate school. Librarian.
9. U.S. Mormon, 35, married, 4 children. Middle class family, grew up in Mormon Utah. University education. Professional in computer/communications.
10. U.S. African-American, 37, married, no children. Middle class family in upper Midwest. University education. Human resources professional, in-house training design and delivery.
11. U.S. Mexican-American, early 20s, no children. Middle class Catholic family, 6th of 8 children. Currently a student, anticipating becoming a family counselor.
12. U.S. white, 49, divorced, 2 children. Middle class family, middle of 3 children with 2 brothers. Teacher in high school and university, self-employed editor and writer.

FAMILY [of Origin], FAMILY'S REACTION TO INTERVIEWEE​

Of the 12 women, 10 reported feeling different within their families, feeling unsupported, feeling like an outsider. All recalled numerous ways in which they did not fit. Half reported strong feelings of rejection and lack of support from families.

CHILDHOOD​

Of the 12 women, 9 reported being smart or especially good in school; none reported academic difficulties. Three different behavior patterns were reported, with several indicating more than one of these: 1) being a leader; 2) being a good girl; 3) being "contrary. The aggressiveness/rebellion generally took the form of rejecting statements/rules which were not logical and reading books in class which were not assigned.

ADOLESCENCE​

Most reported increased feelings of being different, separate, during their adolescence. They generally described themselves as being independent and thinking for themselves, but having difficulty with social relationships and gender expectations. Only 2 dated or had romantic relationships with males. Academics were important, and they were successful. Several described participation in social activities, always in the form of belonging to clubs or sports teams, but they reported few friendships. (Especially noteworthy: No one reported close intimate friendships with males or females.)

COLLEGE​

Many reported not being able to make free choices about college/careers because of family finances and expectations. A few came alive in college or university. Most found it a continuation of their previous experience small circle of friends, little dating, feeling different. There was also continuing evidence of, as several put it, being contrary.

CAREER DECISIONS, EXPERIENCE​

Few found a good-fit career quickly; most tried several areas before finding one in which they could use their abilities and in which they felt comfortable. All expressed the importance of having jobs which allowed freedom and flexibility. All mentioned the importance of their careers to their self-identity. All reported few friendships, fairly formal relationships with colleagues.

PARENTING​

Of the 12 women, 7 have children, 5 do not. In general, they stated that parenting was important to them but that they were not like most mothers: they were more detached, had few rules, and liked their children better as they get older. Several expressed frustration at the limitations motherhood placed on them.

MALE PERSPECTIVE​

This is a question we did not think to ask, but all 12 stated that people saw them as having a male perspective, that their primary identifications were with males, or that they felt most comfortable interacting with males. Nine expressed finding it difficult to relate to other females, feeling very different from them.

FEELING FUNCTION​

All reported some degree of difficulty in recognizing or expressing feeling judgment. Most reported relationship difficulties related to this.

GENDER EXPECTATIONS​

All except two expressed discomfort with gender expectations and an awareness of acting outside their culture's gender roles.

TIME ALONE AND INDEPENDENCE​

Without exception, the women portrayed themselves as being independent in their thinking and actions. They also consistently stated the importance to them of time alone. Most indicated that these characteristics caused difficulties for them in relationships.

CULTURES PREFERRED TYPE FOR WOMEN​

All who expressed an opinion (11) agreed that their culture preferred extraverted feeling in women that is, the combination of feeling and judging (or the inferior function for these dominant introverted thinkers). ISFJ and ESFJ were most commonly suggested by these INTP women.

There are alway flaws in research that assumes its subjects have prior understanding of the material in question (in this case, MBTI Types, and specifically INTP women). Despite any potentially muddling factors, the striking similarities among female INTP experiences cannot be easily dismissed, or arbitrary. In fact, even the researchers note their surprise, upon discovering so many parallels between them.

If you are like me---and anatomically female INTP---I imagine you will relate to nearly everything reported by these twelve, cross-cultural interviewees. It might be helpful to know that within our feminine sphere of existence, INTP women unwittingly struggle against external forces (societal constraints) which compound an already naturally sense of our "difference". Perhaps it's better for us that we are less "emotional", that our proclivity for detachment allows us to better tolerate our alterity. Personally, even though I sometimes feared I might forever feel like a "stranger in a strange land", I have always at the same time jealously guarded my individuality. I don't want to be like other women. I don't feel a burning urge to have much in common with my opposite type (ESFJ). At the same time, everyone needs too feel understood. Perhaps we (INTP ladies) might take solace in one another---even if she speaks a foreign language, another f-INTP is more likely to "get me", better than other f-types who have known me my whole.

 

[this is my username]

Women generally dislike me. It's hard to get them to warm up to me and I've come to a point where I don't really care, making it even harder to befriend females. Guys don't like me unless I'm extroverted and they know they can get some.

Females who have gotten to know me generally drop me as a friend because I am "too weird" "not girlie enough" "a man" "not lady-like" and our hobbies do not mesh.

reading books in class which were not assigned.

always in trouble for reading under the desk

having difficulty with social relationships and gender expectations

Yes yes yes.

This is a question we did not think to ask, but all 12 stated that people saw them as having a &#8220male&#8221 perspective, that their primary identifications were with males, or that they felt most comfortable interacting with males. Nine expressed finding it difficult to relate to other females, feeling very different from them.

I think along thought lines that are more commonly associated with masculinity. My gender on this website is "neutral." I have ALWAYS gotten along better with men... longer friendships, better conversations, more fun in general....

All except two expressed discomfort with gender expectations and an awareness of acting outside their culture&#8217s gender roles.

YES YES YES.
Like armpit shaving?? Wtf.

 

[this is my username]

INTPs love portal it seems...
It's the only game I've played of recent and liked. Not a gamer. Get really bored really fast (its because there were no video games in my house growing up)

 

[ToriKago]

I'm kind of neutral toward the gender roles and what's expected of me as a female...I'm just not aware, I guess. Could someone elaborate on that for me? I know this is an old thread but it would it'd be nice.

 

[LadyO.W.BernieBro]

I really don't match up with most those traits and descriptions.

Some of them are applied to any introverted woman but "sulky" and especially the one about projecting blame have never been used to describe me, I'm not treated like someone who acts that way either. The others I really don't consider to be negative descriptions.

I've known other women who were perceived as angry and sulky because they were quiet and I've always made a conscious effort to set myself apart from them, no offense. I don't really think that I'm making a terrible sacrifice by doing so, either. I'm making life easier for myself and improving my social skills, I don't believe that because we have strengths in certain areas as INTPs we shouldn't try to improve in others. Look at how often other types are encouraged to develop traits and abilities that we have.

I am still quiet when I want to be, I'm sure I'm thought of as angry, sulky, or even passive aggressive by strangers because of this but the people who know me, even casually don't think so.

You have to think that INTPs males experience much of the same thing, I don't think the extroversion preference is limited to women.

As much as "the strong silent type" is discussed I think many INTP men are perceived much like we are and that's even worse because they're expected to be (at least a little) brutish.

I hear two different arguments for the "preferred" woman as well. If someone isn't saying they feel inadequate for being introverted they're saying they feel oppressed because women are expected to be seen and not heard.

Do what you want. Each type thinks that the other has it better anyway.

 

[KINGJADEX]

INTPs love portal it seems...
It's the only game I've played of recent and liked. Not a gamer. Get really bored really fast (its because there were no video games in my house growing up)

Portal and Portal 2 are probably my favorite games in existence! Hopefully Valve puts together Portal 3 relatively soon.

 

[kalias]

INTP women exist? But in all seriousness I can understand where most of this is coming from. Female social norms are not very similar to typical INTP behavior.

 

[misstheground]

I grew up in an exceptionally supportive family, and have a group of wonderful friends. It might have to do with why I really don't feel the way that this was reported.
I mean, I definitely don't usually fit gender expectations, but I also have no trouble with geniality, being friendly, etc.
Maybe it's my strong feeling or my ability to be extroverted? Or maybe it has to do with my enneagram type. </thougt>

 

[QuietStorm]

Are there many social norms that either of the INTP genders conform to?

In any case ... I could relate to a lot of those, but not all of them. I found that I could relate to quite a few of the adjectives and phrases that aren't typically used to describe INTP women -- but then, I would credit that to the way I was raised and my overall temperament.

 

[nadjasix]

Seems a lot of people are missing the point.

The point of the article is that the INTP women *aren't* actually behaving in ways that deserve negative labels. They're behaving in ways that would be considered perfectly normal and "friendly" if males did it; but because their behavior doesn't match the stereotypes about "feminine" behavior, and the role expectations of their societies, they are being slammed with undeserved negative reactions.

 

[downsowf]

...... reassessing.

 

[See Above]

There are definitely differences. We can fake it up to a point. I have two casual friends at work. We chat in the hallway, we go out for drinks after work every other week. They're good people. We did something together once on a week end. We met up at a trendy clothes boutique and had lunch together. The trendy boutique was such a shock to my system. I stood around and kept ending up in people's way. I felt like an idiot. I wouldn't have been caught dead in any of those clothes (or paid those laughably ridiculous prices). Now one those friends keeps suggesting (now and then) that we should get away for a few days together so we could eat, talk and drink and not have to worry about driving home after it all. Alarms start going off in my head, "Shit! Pajama party! Shit!" I just know I can't pull that one off. I hope to Gawd that she never follows through on it!! Two or three days is too much for my introverted self, and what the hell could we talk about for that long? Would they mind if I brought along a few books? (Sigh!)

 

[Zwielicht]

Even among my more intellectual female friends there's a degree of expected feminimity and automatic closeness that I'm not comfortable with. I prefer hanging out with guys and the few 'best' friends I have, since they know how to give me my space. As long as my space is respected I'm quite amiable.

 

[Unus]

100% with you regarding the female friends experience, so much so that I could have written it myself...!

 

[The Unseen]

Reading the part "FAMILY [of Origin], FAMILY'S REACTION TO INTERVIEWEE", made me tear up. It's as though that was written about me. It totally rehashed the issues I had with society as a young woman, and made me remember how hard it was growing up, and how hard it can be still today. I for one will always feel sub-par and inadequate for being a female INTP. I often wish that I had been born a male instead, for the simple reason of it making life easier. My way of existing would be 100% more acceptable in society if I were a male.

My whole life people have assumed that I have some sort of "mental illness", that it "must be why she is the way she is". I get so tired of people who treat me in that regard, as though I am 'broken" and in need of a good "fixing".

There is nothing wrong with me, never has been, and something I'd love to say to all who view me and female INTP's everywhere in a negative light: The problem has never been with me, but with you and your own narrow frame of mind.

 

[nadjasix]

I don't feel inadequate. I feel free. And the sex is better over here.

I really feel like telling people sometimes: I'm not your mother. I'm not going to walk on egg shells around you and pretend I have no personality or opinions or differences because it makes you uncomfortable. I'm not going to wipe your ass, either. Deal with it.

 

[downsowf]

I for one will always feel sub-par and inadequate for being a female INTP. I often wish that I had been born a male instead, for the simple reason of it making life easier. My way of existing would be 100% more acceptable in society if I were a male.

I've recently started thinking about how my behavior would be viewed if I were a female. Instead of being known as someone who speaks his mind or as someone who will challenge your opinion, I would probably be thought of as a bitch. I've gotten away with arguing with bosses, living my life independently, and am not pressured into meeting any type of expectations in terms of settling down. I am probably thought of as eccentric and people still make the comment "you'll find the right person someday" as if I'm missing out on something or this is a remedy to life's problems, but I got over feeling like an outcast when I realized that I'm living my life exactly the way I want to live it instead of abiding to societal constructions of how a person is supposed to go through life.

I think @nadjasix has the right state of mind to go through life. Embrace who you are and set your own expectations instead of catering to the expectations of others. Perhaps life won't get easier in terms of how others view you, but I would imagine once you say "fuck everybody else," it will get easier to live by your own terms without feeling inadequate. Though perhaps I have no frame of reference to be able to comment, but I will anyway.

 

[jeffbobs]

this seems more like a list to find the perfect woman rather than negative qualities

Phrases most often used to describe:

• is basically distrustful of people in general; questions their motivations
• keeps people at a distance; avoids close interpersonal relationships
• is subtly negativistic; tends to undermine and obstruct or sabotage
• tends to be self-defensive
• extrapunitive; tends to transfer or project blame

Adjectives most often used to describe:

• distrustful
• sulky
• evasive
• indifferent
• resentful
• defensive
• wary
• unfriendly
• tense

 

[The Unseen]

I've recently started thinking about how my behavior would be viewed if I were a female. Instead of being known as someone who speaks his mind or as someone who will challenge your opinion, I would probably be thought of as a bitch.]

Yes. Exactly this. I am often thought of as a bitch which saddens me, because I'm anything but. Most people don't stick around long enough to see through my directness, to realize this about me. It seems as though just because I refuse to the kiss the ass of another, I am automatically labeled as such and discarded. People should really learn their definitions, for being assertive is completely different than being a bitch. At least in my mind it is.

I think @nadjasix has the right state of mind to go through life. Embrace who you are and set your own expectations instead of catering to the expectations of others. Perhaps life won't get easier in terms of how others view you, but I would imagine once you say "fuck everybody else," it will get easier to live by your own terms without feeling inadequate.

You are right again. Perhaps one day this young grasshopper will learn how to. Trying to do what is expected of me by others as a woman in this society, conflicts with being an INTP in ways you'd have to be a female INTP to understand, and it is so immeasurably tiring.

 

[Tezkatlipoca]

Gender roles, shame. Never knew INTP women had it this hard.