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Heretic
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Discussion Starter #1
Today I want to examine this thing called Extroverted Feeling (Fe).
Under the model of Myers Briggs this is a judgment function.

I will hereby pick it apart and examine it from an outside perspective.
I myself does not use this function naturally, at least according to theory.

Fe has to do with declarations of relationships.
Every statement and action is viewed as a declaration of some sort of
allegiance to a relationship or a dismissal of a relationship.
This can be towards an individual or group.

Since not all individuals are aware of this overt focus on declarations
of intent in relations towards other human individuals or groups this can easily
create confusion and conflict.

Concepts like morals and norms are both Fe derived.

Morals has to do with what is perceived as right and wrong. An external
manifestation of a groups way of life. To break the moral code would
be a declaration that the individual dismiss the group that the morals
belong to.

Norms are similar, but are a more detailed version of morals.
Instead of being a this is right period, this is wrong period.
It operates through this is the expected behavior in this situation
and this is the expected behavior in this other situation.
Norms are more fluent and not as rigorously policed as morals.

Ethics are our current understanding of what the repercussions of
having morals and norms are.

Laws also come into play here, but are not solely the domain of Fe,
though it have had a significant influence in this area, it is not it's sole creator.

When Fe is applied it works trough a sort of role play. Every time it is
invoked the person in question has to either reject or accept the role
offered and by proxy the individual or group that the role symbolizes.
Some individuals are more aware of this than others. The ones aware of
this accept or reject roles according to the groups or individuals they
feel connected to and the form of connection they feel they have with
this group or individual without fail. Some lack Fe to the extent that
they doesn't see this as clearly. They therefore may not even be aware of that their actions carry any meaning to anyone else.

This creates problems, especially when some people believe that they shouldn't have to play this social role play, but be left to their own
devices, since they find the trappings of Fe smothering.
Because Fe demands adjustment of behavior. If you don't comply you are
sort of declaring war in a tribal sense.

Fe does not like separateness, Fe is unity.

So naturally religions, labor unions and many other ideologies spring
up to enforce this unity.
Other individuals who value separateness create other entities to counter these forces. These entities focus on individualism, Fe's counter.

Since Fe is hung up on unity it has a hard time separating, my emotions
from your emotions.
So if you feel bad, I feel bad. If you feel happy, I feel happy.
This is only if you belong to the same group.
If a complete stranger or foreign group expresses emotions the results are often reversed.

That leads us to prejudice. This is a label put on any foreign group or
individual that does not comply with the accepted morals or norms that
Fe has created in your own group.

In Fe the individual must give way for the collective good.
It is expected that the individual accommodate everyone else according
to morals and norms. For this purpose there are social graces
that everyone are expected to adhere to to be accepted within most groups.

Social graces:
Being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate.

To what degree and in what form these are applied changes from group to group
and is often a telltale sign that someone does or doesn't belong in the group.

There is so much more to say about Fe,
but I think this will do nicely for now.
 
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Great article. Serves as a reminder to stay as far away from Fe users as possible :p

I was wondering, though, is Fe only manifested in social situations? I often feel a strong emotional reaction to music, movies, etc. and I've assumed it's been Fi - but is it possible it could be my inferior Fe kicking in?
 

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Heretic
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Discussion Starter #3
Think of Fe like an invisible forcefield.
Whenever two people meet they both project this force field (Fe),
to the extent that they believe/feel it is appropriate.

Forcefields:
1 degree: EXFJ
2 degree: IXFJ
3 degree: EXTP
4 degree: IXTP
5 degree: IXFP
6 degree: EXFP
7 degree: IXTJ
8 degree: EXTJ
 

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You are very correct that for an Fe user it is about symbolic action that create bonding. Non-Fe-users who do not see the inherent symbolism in the actions of the Fe-user towards them often hurt the feelings of the Fe-user. I hope unintentionally. Also, as Fe is my "best" Feeling process (albeit tertiary) I really relate to that and have experienced a lot of hurt through dabblings with ISTJs and ENTJs, some whom I find extremely self centered and egoistic (generalizing). I have had to come to realize that some people just dot have that need nor understanding. They "do not return the favor" so to speak.... And are utterly surprised and unimpressed if you try to explain.

Also it is true that I have problems defining my own feelings... I cannot say that I strive for harmony at all cost... as an ENTP I am more for progress. But I really do consider and value the benefit of all and not how I as an individual can benefit from a situation. That is secondary.

Prejudice? Well.... I guess that Fe-users can be more susceptible to group-pressure, but otherwise I believe Judgement is the main perpetrator when it comes to prejudice.


So... good post, thank you.
 

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This creates problems, especially when some people believe that they shouldn't have to play this social role play, but be left to their own
devices, since they find the trappings of Fe smothering.
Because Fe demands adjustment of behavior. If you don't comply you are
sort of declaring war in a tribal sense.
This is a prime example of why I really don't like a lot of Fe users, they take it upon them selves to make assumptions and create conflict based on their assumptions. No one should try to make people into something they're not. Often when they have made an assumption they aren't interested changing that assumption nor discussing it, all based on a feeling.

Of course this doesn't apply to all Fe users, my mother (ISFJ) usually have a very healthy Fe use. But I have experienced this countless of times and it's always with Fe users.

Perhaps a Fe users could explain this to me, what's with all these to me unfounded assumptions?
 

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Perhaps a Fe users could explain this to me, what's with all these to me unfounded assumptions?
Hmmm. This sounds more like the common "everyone is like me and thinks like me"-trap, both from the proposed Fe-users and *ahem* you... Not saying it is, but it is the most difficult thing to realize that other person have differing POVs and come from completely different places . I would IMAGINE that it would be even harder for J-types since they focus on the ONE meaning and relate it to the self (Ni, Si etc). Or skip the last part.... we have already discussed that in another thread.

When I use Fe and "culture clash" against the ISTJs and the ENTJs, it is because I do stuff for them to show I care; That is how I show emotion if you will. In return (especially if not being careful about the beforenamed trap) I believe that they will return the favors in the way that they can and in a situation/time when they have the opportunity to do so. If such never arises I never expect anything of course... But they dont see it this way.

One ISTJ fiercely resist any "help" and insisted I shouldnt give him any work just beacause he is my friend. I honestly said that it was beyond my power to factor that out (and to me it was a non-issue; of course you help friends out). He felt in "debt".. and asked me about this... I said "Well.. yes of sorts if you will... But only if you get the opportunity to repay any kindness; Then I would expect it. Never otherwise". That is how we clashed...

Otherwise I dont really see any such "unfounded assumptions" with Fe (apart from "return the favor if you can" or " Realize the importance of why I do this to you" as stated above). many say Fe is shallow and untrue, but I dont know... Fe mimics. It is the mirror neurons function; The empathy function.... But it works without deeper thought so I guess that is why Fe-users can seem shallow. We are effected by other peoples moods and expect other people to do so in return; using information thus gained to benefit the other and THUS yourself in the process.
 

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I discussed some of my thoughts on this in this thread:

http://personalitycafe.com/entj-forum-executives/50264-your-experience-fe-users.html



I've noticed that NTJ's seem to have a bigger problem with Fe than any other types. The reason why might be kind of summed up in a description of Fe users in Lenore Thompson's book...I mentioned this in that thread:

EFJ's will deny negative thoughts or opinions for the sake of social harmony, particularly if the category of relationship warrants this strategy. Such denial strikes them as the better part of valor.

Thinking types, with their penchant for impersonal accuracy, regard the whole business of tailoring truth to the category of relationship as dishonest--and more than a little irrational. But of course, TJ's spend most of their lives trying to separate their judgment from degrees of relationship. For EFJ's, right and wrong behaviors can't be determined until the category of relationship is established. To behave otherwise strikes them as dishonest and irrational.




I tend to think that NTJ's have a problem with Fe because they don't have a need for what Fe does. INTJ's in particular are a very independent type that don't seem to have needs to unify together. I think ENTJ's are kind of like that too, but they're more involved in controlling things than INTJ's are.


I honestly don't see Fe users as wanting to create conflict, and they may not even be aware of conflicts they are creating. They probably view the same situations as them reducing conflicts. This is probably especially true if they don't interact with NTJ's very often. In addition, if someone knows nothing about type, then they probably have a tendency to assume that a lot of people have something in common with themselves, particularly if the majority of people they know are similar to themselves.



To me, it really boils down to the same thing as a lot of these situations do...and that's that people have to realize that others have natural preferences that will make their drive and reason for living completely different than one another. Both sides can and should make an effort to understand how others are different, and to make the necessary compromises in order to get along or work together. If not, the only other option is for them to either never spend time together or to be miserable when they are together.
 

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Hmmm. This sounds more like the common "everyone is like me and thinks like me"-trap, both from the proposed Fe-users and *ahem* you... Not saying it is, but it is the most difficult thing to realize that other person have differing POVs and come from completely different places.
Sure, but in my experience the Fe users actually do create the conflict. They attack my person whilst I have been discussing a specific thing (Te versus Fe I guess). But being able to explain it with mbti doesn't make it any less annoying, I don't think personal attacks have any place at all in a discussion or and argumentation. If a Fe users interprets something I say as an attack then that Fe user should ask me about it so that I can clarify, because it's not ok for people to just make such assumptions and get mad without showing an interest in learning the truth.

I would IMAGINE that it would be even harder for J-types since they focus on the ONE meaning and relate it to the self (Ni, Si etc). Or skip the last part.... we have already discussed that in another thread.
Ok, I'm skipping this part you wrote and then retracted instead of just deleting it. As a J-type it would be difficult focusing on more than one discussion either way.

When I use Fe and "culture clash" against the ISTJs and the ENTJs, it is because I do stuff for them to show I care; That is how I show emotion if you will. In return (especially if not being careful about the beforenamed trap) I believe that they will return the favors in the way that they can and in a situation/time when they have the opportunity to do so. If such never arises I never expect anything of course... But they dont see it this way.

One ISTJ fiercely resist any "help" and insisted I shouldnt give him any work just beacause he is my friend. I honestly said that it was beyond my power to factor that out (and to me it was a non-issue; of course you help friends out). He felt in "debt".. and asked me about this... I said "Well.. yes of sorts if you will... But only if you get the opportunity to repay any kindness; Then I would expect it. Never otherwise". That is how we clashed...
While I understand that you wish to be kind to your friends; why help someone who doesn't want to be helped? Maybe it's an empathic Fe thing which I don't understand but it seems like a waste of resources to me.

Otherwise I dont really see any such "unfounded assumptions" with Fe (apart from "return the favor if you can" or " Realize the importance of why I do this to you" as stated above). many say Fe is shallow and untrue, but I dont know... Fe mimics. It is the mirror neurons function; The empathy function.... But it works without deeper thought so I guess that is why Fe-users can seem shallow. We are effected by other peoples moods and expect other people to do so in return; using information thus gained to benefit the other and THUS yourself in the process.
On this I can agree, Fe is indeed a very empathic function. I hate when people feel empathy for me :p. Now a perfectly good rational problem solving conversation, that's the good stuff.
 

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Sure, but in my experience the Fe users actually do create the conflict. They attack my person whilst I have been discussing a specific thing (Te versus Fe I guess). But being able to explain it with mbti doesn't to it any less annoying, I don't think personal attacks have any place at all in a discussion or and argumentation. If a Fe users interprets something I say as an attack then that Fe user should ask me about it so that I can clarify, because it's not ok for people to just make such assumptions and get mad without showing an interest in learning the truth.
But boy do they do it anyway...

An element is probably the inability to be impersonal. If it's a judgment, it's a personal judgment. They say something about you, not the impersonal situation. And don't even realising they are making things personal because they mistakenly assumed it already was. The sort of weird narrow-mindedness extraverted functions can have - there is just the external reality (in this case social/feelings/etc/) and not my perspective - indeed, being very aware one has one's own perspective can actually make a person more aware that other people have their own. Like the way Te can sometimes be like 'no, there's just the external reality, what are you talking about your own reality, that's only a perspective on actual reality...' Fe can do that with ideas of what constitutes good, helping, niceness...)

As a J-type it would be difficult focusing on more than one discussion either way.
:wink:

While I understand that you wish to be kind to your friends; why help someone who doesn't want to be helped? Maybe it's an empathic Fe thing which I don't understand but it seems like a waste of resources to me.
Penny: [after the tale of Saturnalia] Okay, well, thank you for that, but I got you and Leonard a few silly neighbor gifts, so I'll just put them under my tree.
Sheldon Cooper: Wait! You bought me a present?
Penny: Uh-huh.
Sheldon Cooper: Why would you do such a thing?
Penny: I don't know. 'Cause its Christmas?
Sheldon Cooper: Oh, Penny. I know you think you are being generous, but the foundation of gift giving is reciprocity. You haven't given me a gift. You've given me an obligation.
Howard Wolowitz: Don't feel bad, Penny, it's a classic rookie mistake. My first Hanukah with Sheldon, he yelled at me for eight nights.
Penny: Now, hey, it's okay. You don't have to get me anything in return.
Sheldon Cooper: Of course I do. The essence of the custom is that I now have to go out and purchase for you a gift of commensurate value and representing the same perceived level of friendship as that represented by the gift you've given me. It's no wonder suicide rates skyrocket this time of year.
 

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I honestly don't see Fe users as wanting to create conflict, and they may not even be aware of conflicts they are creating. They probably view the same situations as them reducing conflicts. This is probably especially true if they don't interact with NTJ's very often. In addition, if someone knows nothing about type, then they probably have a tendency to assume that a lot of people have something in common with themselves, particularly if the majority of people they know are similar to themselves.
I don't think it's about Fe creating conflict. I think it's about friction - A group of strong Fe users will probably work well together, and they will have harmony and a great social atmosphere, because that's what they are aiming for. They'll accomplish stuff - maybe not in the most efficient and successful way possible, but hey, they are having a really good time together, and they are an awesome team sharing a great social bond.

A group of strong Te users will also work well together. They will have harmony and a great social atmosphere, because they are equally uninterested in eachother, and equally focused on objectively solving the actual problems at hand. They will accomplish things together and they will be happy and enjoy working together because progress is made.

There's simply no friction and no conflict of interest in these cases.

Problems develop when there's a mix between strong Fe-users and strong Te-users, who are supposed to work together as a group and accomplish something. The Fe-users will form solutions based on the opinions of the people involved, and these opinions may be unpractical and inefficient - But at least everyone can agree that's how it's supposed to be done. And it will be fun doing it.

Here, the Te-users will be inclined to disagree, to create huge amounts of conflict and to, if that's what's needed, bulldoze their way into an iron handed dictator role, neglecting the opinions of everyone if they can see an objectively better solution than "the stupid sheeple who don't know what's good for them".

Here, conflict forms out of the friction of interest. The Fe-users will see the Te-users as harmony-breakers and arrogant know-it-alls who are totally careless, insensitive, bull-headed, uncompromising and ignorant of what people want. The Te-users will see the Fe-users as slippery, stupid, group thinking populist idiots who are fundamentally incapable of rational thinking.

And then it's pretty much a situation of war. The Te-users start to see the Fe-users as road blocks and liabilities on the path to progress, while the Fe users start to see the Te-users as perpetual and unyielding sources of conflict and battle.

It's not that Fe creates conflict. And neither does Te. It's the combination that simply does not function very well.
 

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I don't think it's about Fe creating conflict. I think it's about friction - A group of strong Fe users will probably work well together, and they will have harmony and a great social atmosphere, because that's what they are aiming for. They'll accomplish stuff - maybe not in the most efficient and successful way possible, but hey, they are having a really good time together, and they are an awesome team sharing a great social bond.

A group of strong Te users will also work well together. They will have harmony and a great social atmosphere, because they are equally uninterested in eachother, and equally focused on objectively solving the actual problems at hand. They will accomplish things together and they will be happy and enjoy working together because progress is made.

There's simply no friction and no conflict of interest in these cases.

Problems develop when there's a mix between strong Fe-users and strong Te-users, who are supposed to work together as a group and accomplish something. The Fe-users will form solutions based on the opinions of the people involved, and these opinions may be unpractical and inefficient - But at least everyone can agree that's how it's supposed to be done. And it will be fun doing it.

Here, the Te-users will be inclined to disagree, to create huge amounts of conflict and to, if that's what's needed, bulldoze their way into an iron handed dictator role, neglecting the opinions of everyone if they can see an objectively better solution than "the stupid sheeple who don't know what's good for them".

Here, conflict forms out of the friction of interest. The Fe-users will see the Te-users as harmony-breakers and arrogant know-it-alls who are totally careless, insensitive, bull-headed, uncompromising and ignorant of what people want. The Te-users will see the Fe-users as slippery, stupid, group thinking populist idiots who are fundamentally incapable of rational thinking.

And then it's pretty much a situation of war. The Te-users start to see the Fe-users as road blocks and liabilities on the path to progress, while the Fe users start to see the Te-users as perpetual and unyielding sources of conflict and battle.

It's not that Fe creates conflict. And neither does Te. It's the combination that simply does not function very well.
I agree, but let's think of another example. Say a strong Te and a strong Fe are having a discussion, the Te is talking about the subject at hand whilst unknowingly says something which the Fe feels is an attack against him/her. The Te had no such aspiration and in the end it's all about how the Fe user interpreted what the Te user said. The Fe user then attacks the Te person directly because of a wrongly interpreted sentence.

Is it still just friction?

I guess what I am asking is to what extent the "Fe-forcefield" get to decide how things can be interpreted instead of looking at the actual premises for whatever was said?
 

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I agree, but let's think of another example. Say a strong Te and a strong Fe are having a discussion, the Te is talking about the subject at hand whilst unknowingly says something which the Fe feels is an attack against him/her. The Te had no such aspiration and in the end it's all about how the Fe user interpreted what the Te user said. The Fe user then attacks the Te person directly because of a wrongly interpreted sentence.

Is it still just friction?
Nice posting @NiDBiLD

The same could be said about those who use Te. Its been my experience that they also feel a personal attack when the Fi user says something they either can't relate too, or understand. So its a vicious circle like the poster above mentioned. It can go both ways. My SO is an INTJ, and he often refers to my opinions or statements as personal attacks, something that was never my intent. I also feel this from him at times, and it was never his intent. The combo can be deadly if two people aren't healthy and mature enough to compromise and work it out...... And the wheels on the bus go round and round ; )

Edit: I realize this is about Fe, although in some cases it works against Fi also.
 

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I agree, but let's think of another example. Say a strong Te and a strong Fe are having a discussion, the Te is talking about the subject at hand whilst unknowingly says something which the Fe feels is an attack against him/her. The Te had no such aspiration and in the end it's all about how the Fe user interpreted what the Te user said. The Fe user then attacks the Te person directly because of a wrongly interpreted sentence.

Is it still just friction?

I guess what I am asking is to what extent the "Fe-forcefield" get to decide how things can be interpreted instead of looking at the actual premises for whatever was said?
Here I think it's pretty futile to push blame on one part or the other. I certainly have a Te bias here, and I have some serious problems with Fe users myself... But if I am to keep my head cold here, I think it's important for us harsh, critical Te-users to learn how to put silk gloves on our iron fists when dealing with people who navigate by populism and opinions. We have to learn how to make the rational solutions become public opinion, so to say.

If not for any other reason, then just because it yields better results.

... Oh, and that's why I think we should start going to Toastmasters workshops after summer @MentationAway
 

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I agree, but let's think of another example. Say a strong Te and a strong Fe are having a discussion, the Te is talking about the subject at hand whilst unknowingly says something which the Fe feels is an attack against him/her. The Te had no such aspiration and in the end it's all about how the Fe user interpreted what the Te user said. The Fe user then attacks the Te person directly because of a wrongly interpreted sentence.

Is it still just friction?
Nice posting @NiDBiLD

The same could be said about those who use Te. Its been my experience that they also feel a personal attack when the Fe user says something they either can't relate too, or understand. So its a vicious circle like the poster above mentioned. It can go both ways. My SO is an INTJ, and he often refers to my opinions or statements as personal attacks, something that was never my intent. I also feel this from him at times, and it was never his intent. The combo can be deadly if two people aren't healthy and mature enough to compromise and work it out...... And the wheels on the bus go round and round ; )
Well does he create conflict when that happens or does he ask you if your intent was to attack him? My point was that lots of Fe users don't seem to care about what the other person meant, only what their interpretation was.

Having said that I definitely see Te users being the creators of conflict as well, but I think they do it in another way as NiDBiLD stated. So I'm not really trying to bash one function over the other, I'm just discussing experience which I deem to be negative in my own subjective opinion.
 

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Here I think it's pretty futile to push blame on one part or the other. I certainly have a Te bias here, and I have some serious problems with Fe users myself... But if I am to keep my head cold here, I think it's important for us harsh, critical Te-users to learn how to put silk gloves on our iron fists when dealing with people who navigate by populism and opinions. We have to learn how to make the rational solutions become public opinion, so to say.

If not for any other reason, then just because it yields better results.
I don't think it's futile at all, isn't the whole point of mbti to give us the tools to explore different thought patterns? I'd rather that my friends tell me when I'm being a Te asshole than to just invent a way of "handling" me. Accepting differences as "The way it is" isn't good enough because it limits our learning.
 

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Well does he create conflict when that happens or does he ask you if your intent was to attack him? My point was that lots of Fe users don't seem to care about what the other person meant, only what their interpretation was.

Having said that I definitely see Te users being the creators of conflict as well, but I think they do it in another way as NiDBiLD stated. So I'm not really trying to bash one function over the other, I'm just discussing experience which I deem to be negative in my own subjective opinion.
Well it creates conflict when he assumes their was indeed an attack, when there wasn't. So by assuming, he already thinks this was my intent. I can be the same way too. It doesn't usually get to the point that creates a huge debate, once we can shut up long enough to let the other explain, we can see where the misunderstand was. Sometimes its not what is said, its how we say it, or the choice of words we use when we do. This only happens when neither of us stop and think , days we're grumpy :D
 

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I don't think it's futile at all, isn't the whole point of mbti to give us the tools to explore different thought patterns? I'd rather that my friends tell me when I'm being a Te asshole than to just invent a way of "handling" me. Accepting differences as "The way it is" isn't good enough because it limits our learning.
I think it's better to acknowledge the facts of the matter, and to develop techniques that work based on those facts. People aren't going to change very much any time soon. There are tons of Fe users out there, so in order to succeed in communicating successfully with them, it will be necessary to adapt to that reality and work with what we've got.

That does not limit our learning. Knowing and doing are two different things, and in order to work with what we've got, we have to know what we've got. Every piece of knowledge you possess about Fe-behaviour will make it easier to communicate efficiently.

I think the path of least resistance in this case is to adapt ones own communication instead of attempting to adapt everyone elses understanding. Less work, greater benefits.
 

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Well it creates conflict when he assumes their was indeed an attack, when there wasn't. So by assuming, he already thinks this was my intent. I can be the same way too. It doesn't usually get to the point that creates a huge debate, once we can shut up long enough to let the other explain, we can see where the misunderstand was. Sometimes its not what is said, its how we say it, or the choice of words we use when we do. This only happens when neither of us stop and think , days we're grumpy :D
Ah yes I think grumpy communication makes every type an asshole once in a while :), I know I can be...
 
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