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Birdie Borracho
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm going to come out swinging with some pseudo-Te: If you are constantly arguing your opinion as if your logic is dogma, you are doing 'ENTP' wrong. For instance, if someone says "blah blah Obama" and you immediately begin to argue about why they are wrong and you are right, then you are adding to the political clusterfuck. This thread is a follow-up to the one I posted about Facebook wars on the MBTI page: http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/533570-patriot-games-xstjs-vs-exfps.html#post17003530

To all NTPs,I believe our types are the best for facilitating discussion, rather than establishing concrete opinions (Someone else can go lecture NTJs haha). Personally, I find it annoying when I see NTPs waste their rational abilities to troll or to criticize someone for their views. Sure, we can think their logic is stupid, but since we know that different types exist, we must adapt to their reasoning to help broaden their perspective. For instance, if NFPs are being all Social Justice Warriorry, there is no point in engaging their facts. Instead, I acknowledge that how they feel is important (it isn't) and say that other people have strong feelings too. Fi tends to empathize best when it sees others as having their own unique feelings.

With a new election coming up, in America, and 24 hour news over-saturating us, NTPs are needed to create positive discussion. Sure, many people will continue to be myopic, but the other day, I managed to convince a conservative that Obama really isn't that bad. I have also convinced a liberal that people who oppose gay marriage aren't evil, they just have different beliefs. Our goal that I would propose, is to convey that the other side is not filled with evil demons, but just people who think differently. But currently, politics tends to dehumanize opposing viewpoints. That is why we detach ourselves from emotion, in order to relay that blank slate to others. IMO, our most useful purpose is to be that moderator, that causes someone to think "Maybe abortion doctors are just normal people" or "Perhaps Chick-Fil-A does have good chicken". Our ability to detach allows other to reattach humanity and that is what the world needs more of. That being said, I am completely detached from this argument so if anybody dissents, feel free to use as much ad hominem as you want.
 

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Not a big fan of mediating, I'd pretty much be unallowed to fully interact with the group, besides wrecking arguments is my thing. Granted, pretending my opinions is logic is a bit retarded. Fun, but retarded.

Besides, sometimes some people take arguments way too seriously, that shit's so common, people have an aversion to debates. Rather not do the whole "change the world perspective" by smashing someone's head into some ideas, one at a time.
 

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Would you mind replacing all the instances in the main post of the word "logic" with "reasoning"? It really bothers me when people use the word logic as though it were a subjective process.
 
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Interesting. I personally like to remain neutral on a lot of issues, as most things aren't simply black or white with me (and I suppose those that are, are the very things you say I waste my time rationalizing in the first place). I do like discussion for the sake of discussion though, like watching people state their cases while I process both sides and come up with new ways for the conversation to go.
 

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Birdie Borracho
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Interesting. I personally like to remain neutral on a lot of issues, as most things aren't simply black or white with me (and I suppose those that are, are the very things you say I waste my time rationalizing in the first place). .
Haha, you made it sound like I said you can't have any beliefs. It's ok to be pro-not-rape, or something like that.

I do like discussion for the sake of discussion though, like watching people state their cases while I process both sides and come up with new ways for the conversation to go
That is what I personally believe is how a mature ENTP handles debate. As I get over winning the debate gave way to broadening perspective. I also study people so hearing how they rationalize is more useful than being a master debater.
@aef8234 trolling is fun, but I prefer to do it conspicuously. Using satire is also a way to point out the holes in someone's argument. People do take arguments seriously and if you mediate correctly, you lighten people up.
@jdstankosky I did that because I don't like repeating the same word; so I try to find a synonyms or just completely make shit up. I can see your reasoning is based on logic. However, if you want me to edit, well...nope.
 

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So...more ENTPs should become moderators? Am I getting that right?
I rather kick back, relax and grab myself a beverage and either enjoy watching the discussion or ditch them if they turn tedius
 

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Birdie Borracho
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
So...more ENTPs should become moderators? Am I getting that right?
I rather kick back, relax and grab myself a beverage and either enjoy watching the discussion or ditch them if they turn tedius
Dude, you can do whatever you want. I'd say kicking back is better than being loud and obnoxious.
 
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What if you debate and often will pick the opposite side just so you can start one and see if you can 'win' the debate, regardless of if you believe in that side or not? It's not about actually 'being right', it's about the sport and the winning of the debate. I'm probably wrong and I know it, but if I can make you believe it, I had a good time.
 

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First of all, Chick-Fil-A is fucking delicious.

Second, anyone that thinks otherwise is full of demons.
 

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Birdie Borracho
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
What if you debate and often will pick the opposite side just so you can start one and see if you can 'win' the debate, regardless of if you believe in that side or not? It's not about actually 'being right', it's about the sport and the winning of the debate. I'm probably wrong and I know it, but if I can make you believe it, I had a good time.
I'd say that's part of moderating. I only criticize ENTPs because I am one. I wish I could tell ENTJ bosses to lighten up and quit trying to control me, but they cannot help themselves. Playing devil's advocate is great, but I think it's important to not be additional "noise." For instance, I see internet comments from my fellow xNTPs all the time, because most of us are lonely internet losers. I can recognize these users, through their comments, because it stinks of intellectual fluff, just like me. But if a major article has 1000 comments already, what is the purpose of your comment? Or say I go to Cracked.com, and someone, regardless of personality, types out a long speech about their viewpoint. It's just noise, only people who agree care, nobody will change their mind, and their opinion is worthless.

My point is that we are constantly surrounded by judgment. I'm not suggesting judgment does not serve a purpose, though. If I were a judge, I'd probably just let everyone go and say "eh, they'll probably get better." But Perception is needed and I think we provide a great outlet for perception. But too often I read or hear frivolous statements where someone rushes to speak their opinion. So Mrs. Playful Proxy, say you are talking with someone about the Freddie Gray riots in Baltimore. Most people are rushing to judgment to say "These people are nothing but animals and should leave America!" or "Police brutality is out of control!" It's all over my news feed. Generally, I do not engage these debates, but I respect that people have opinions. Now, we should start up a debate and try to win it, but what is the goal? First, we want to win, of course. What is the thesis, though? I could argue that black people deserve the brutality because of Darwinian Evolution. Of course that would be offensive, and I do not believe it, but I could bullshit enough to try to win that argument (And lose some friends along the way). Or I could pick a neutral ground. Both sides of these types of arguments have staked out the high ground, which means the truth is deep in the valley (metaphor ftw). My point is that we can use our natural abilities to further discussion or we can use it for our amusement. For dumb idiots, just troll them. For smarter people, try to engage them and draw out their perception. For ISFPs, continue to let them color in their books.
@johnnyyukon I agree with the first and have no thoughts on the second. That being said, I will shank someone for some chicken sandwiches.
@Deadmanrising you do you. Trolling has no effect on me unless it's something along the lines of police 'trolling me' by putting me in jail, for say 15 years. If all you do is troll, I'd say you're opinions and life is worthless. If it's an occasional hobby then have it. Personally, I enjoy trolling, in person, when I'm drunk. By that I mean making shit up to people, not riling them up to where they want to punch me. I enjoy wearing my unpunched face.
 

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ISo Mrs. Playful Proxy, say you are talking with someone about the Freddie Gray riots in Baltimore. Most people are rushing to judgment to say "These people are nothing but animals and should leave America!" or "Police brutality is out of control!" It's all over my news feed. Generally, I do not engage these debates, but I respect that people have opinions. Now, we should start up a debate and try to win it, but what is the goal? First, we want to win, of course. What is the thesis, though? I could argue that black people deserve the brutality because of Darwinian Evolution. Of course that would be offensive, and I do not believe it, but I could bullshit enough to try to win that argument (And lose some friends along the way). Or I could pick a neutral ground. Both sides of these types of arguments have staked out the high ground, which means the truth is deep in the valley (metaphor ftw). My point is that we can use our natural abilities to further discussion or we can use it for our amusement. For dumb idiots, just troll them. For smarter people, try to engage them and draw out their perception. For ISFPs, continue to let them color in their books.
I'd honestly propose the argument that technically all humans are animals and it's not limited to one specific race. I'd then probably sidewind someone down a philosophical trail as to if what is going on is right and argue since both sides are committing violence, both sides are at fault, then call into question the meaning of fault and if it eventually exists. When I am ready to finish, I just admit I don't have enough actual information to draw a conclusion but it was nice talking to them.
 

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I'd say that's part of moderating. I only criticize ENTPs because I am one. I wish I could tell ENTJ bosses to lighten up and quit trying to control me, but they cannot help themselves. Playing devil's advocate is great, but I think it's important to not be additional "noise." For instance, I see internet comments from my fellow xNTPs all the time, because most of us are lonely internet losers. I can recognize these users, through their comments, because it stinks of intellectual fluff, just like me. But if a major article has 1000 comments already, what is the purpose of your comment? Or say I go to Cracked.com, and someone, regardless of personality, types out a long speech about their viewpoint. It's just noise, only people who agree care, nobody will change their mind, and their opinion is worthless.

My point is that we are constantly surrounded by judgment. I'm not suggesting judgment does not serve a purpose, though. If I were a judge, I'd probably just let everyone go and say "eh, they'll probably get better." But Perception is needed and I think we provide a great outlet for perception. But too often I read or hear frivolous statements where someone rushes to speak their opinion. So Mrs. Playful Proxy, say you are talking with someone about the Freddie Gray riots in Baltimore. Most people are rushing to judgment to say "These people are nothing but animals and should leave America!" or "Police brutality is out of control!" It's all over my news feed. Generally, I do not engage these debates, but I respect that people have opinions. Now, we should start up a debate and try to win it, but what is the goal? First, we want to win, of course. What is the thesis, though? I could argue that black people deserve the brutality because of Darwinian Evolution. Of course that would be offensive, and I do not believe it, but I could bullshit enough to try to win that argument (And lose some friends along the way). Or I could pick a neutral ground. Both sides of these types of arguments have staked out the high ground, which means the truth is deep in the valley (metaphor ftw). My point is that we can use our natural abilities to further discussion or we can use it for our amusement. For dumb idiots, just troll them. For smarter people, try to engage them and draw out their perception. For ISFPs, continue to let them color in their books.
@johnnyyukon I agree with the first and have no thoughts on the second. That being said, I will shank someone for some chicken sandwiches.

Our goal that I would propose, is to convey that the other side is not filled with evil demons, but just people who think differently.

Ha, sounds like your giving your manifesto on ENTPs' civic duty. I hear ya. Not that I seek your approval, but in general, my posts are usually in the "well have you thought about this perspective?" That can look like many things and come in many forms, sarcasm, snark, gifs, etc. I only give my true and direct thoughts/opinions when a somebody seems open minded. The rest, many of their opinions, while sometimes so thick with ignorance it gives me a tiny fleeting moment of annoyance, I will resort to a few posts of mocking for my own amusement, and hopefully other, more sensible readers might see what I am trying to expose about that narrow minded persons' thought process/shoddy beliefs.

Ultimately, it's the fucking internet, where very little actual change is going to happen. Even if someone's mind is miraculously changed, even in the slightest. Dicking around on here is not that much different than looking at porn. It's masturbation.
 

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Birdie Borracho
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ha, sounds like your giving your manifesto on ENTPs' civic duty. I hear ya. Not that I seek your approval, but in general, my posts are usually in the "well have you thought about this perspective?" That can look like many things and come in many forms, sarcasm, snark, gifs, etc. I only give my true and direct thoughts/opinions when a somebody seems open minded. The rest, many of their opinions, while sometimes so thick with ignorance it gives me a tiny fleeting moment of annoyance, I will resort to a few posts of mocking for my own amusement, and hopefully other, more sensible readers might see what I am trying to expose about that narrow minded persons' thought process/shoddy beliefs.

Ultimately, it's the fucking internet, where very little actual change is going to happen. Even if someone's mind is miraculously changed, even in the slightest. Dicking around on here is not that much different than looking at porn. It's masturbation.
My point isn't so much a real argument as it is dressed up fluff that sounds fancy. And I agree that internet debate is mostly useless, except for debate with friends, on facebook. Hell, start a debate on Instagram: "Girl, you got a fine ass but your ass will not fix the problems in Baltimore." Which segues into porn. Porn is such a curse for an ENTP. Most of my time is spent searching for some random fixation and only a small percentage sees meaningful pumps. It even happens during sex that my mind will wonder, after awhile. "Wow sir, that lasted a respectable amount of time." " Sorry madam, it is not my stamina to thank but rather my wandering mind to blame." I wonder what's like to be a sensor is is fully captivated by the moment.

As far as my 'evil demons' quote and reply, I'm pleasantly surprised I stayed consistent. Pat on the back for me...yay!
@Playful Proxy I would entertain the discussion but I'm not sure most other types would go along with it. After awhile it'd be "tits or gtfo"
 

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Birdie Borracho
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That's not even original. Some ENTP you are. :rolleyes:
I was referring to what other types would say, rather than implying my remarks on the subject. Jumping to implied conclusions rather than focusing on the details. Yep, sounds like an ENTP.
 

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I was referring to what other types would say, rather than implying my remarks on the subject. Jumping to implied conclusions rather than focusing on the details. Yep, sounds like an ENTP.
So if I start crying, will you argue I then sound like an ENFP? I'm not the only one jumping to conclusions with little data to back it up.
 

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Birdie Borracho
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So if I start crying, will you argue I then sound like an ENFP? I'm not the only one jumping to conclusions with little data to back it up.
I would probably just mock you for crying. However, are we having an argument? What data are we talking about? I'm not really sure what we are addressing. @johnnyyukon and I were last talking about porn; what are you and I discussing? Ad Hominem attacks are fun and I consider them to be logical fallawesomies.
 

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I would probably just mock you for crying. However, are we having an argument? What data are we talking about? I'm not really sure what we are addressing. @johnnyyukon and I were last talking about porn; what are you and I discussing? Ad Hominem attacks are fun and I consider them to be logical fallawesomies.
My apologies, i wasn't aware we were addressing anything. Are you old fashioned enough to do IPv4? If you want to just cut to the chase and save time later, let's just do IPv6 on everything.
 

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I suppose that's what a grown ass NTP is supposed to do. I get what you're saying, I've also thought that being the moderator is -as johnny said- our civic duty, but most of the time I really can't bother, especially on the internet. One of the reasons -apart from being lazy- is that I'm very much allergic to close mindedness. People generally won't take you seriously unless you take a side, which I'm not inclined to do, at least not on their terms. Besides, practically every serious (political or other) discussion with me tends to end to the conclusion that nothing matters and we're all dumb. Most people hardly appreciate nihilism (me included). And mediocrity pretty much looks like taking a side to me. Of course, not arguing with people in real life, especially dumb fucks, goes against my very nature but most of the time I'd rather pass. I'd rather troll or be sarcastic, even though that's purely for my entertainment, and most likely nothing will come out of it. I still play mediator sometimes, when I think it's going to be appraciated or cause some kind of change, I just don't feel very strongly about it.
 
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