Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 64 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Perhaps this is totally my personal experience, or perhaps I can enlighten many with this idea. Maybe I am not alone. However, I do not think this is only specific to INTJs. I think all types could use this to realize how they can see mathematics for what it really is, and improve their lives. I just believe INTJs would find more things to get out of it. Nonetheless, I feel the need to share this idea. Mathematics is for anyone who wants to excel in many things. That's what I want to do to; I don't know about you (bars).

Straightforward: I do not think INTJs should be labeled "The Scientist". More than "The Mathematician".

I've been sitting on this ideas for several days as I do more research on Mathematics. I am a college student that is switching their major from Computer Science to Maths. I just finished a semester getting a dose of what it would be like to be a scientist (digitally) on some capacity, and I realized that I do not think INTJs fits being a scientist more than a mathematician. My reasons are below:

Mathematics comes from the root word: Mathema. Which is Greek for: study, knowledge, learning (I never fucking knew).

 

  • I think a scientist is far more worried about a solution to a special case, rather than a general case like a mathematician would be concerned about. Not just solutions that will work now and for a while. But all the time. Where I think the INTJ would be more intrigued by. A mathematician would rather have the top down view of everything, which speaks volumes to an INTJ.

  • Mathematics teach you how to learn frameworks, systems, and find patterns. Not only learn them, but learn how to build your own frameworks and systems in whatever you like (music, photography, social media, fashion, art, etc). I believe this is where the INTJ will feel more welcomed. Our Te would eat that up on any day. Compared to a scientist who is more than likely following a formula or method for their specific case (physics, economics, engineering, finance, psych, etc). Mathematicians are famous for only caring about learning and understanding the theory of a formula or a system, and not so much the specific result. But results for everything.

  • Mathematicians on average sucked at arithmetic, or don't care for it all, and finds it useless I have learned. They have what is called number and operation sense instead of the precise results you get with arithmetic. Since they understand the systems, they see how the numbers relate to each other; not just the number itself. This is where I believed I was not a maths person (starting in middle school). Even in the 3rd grade I got caught hiding all my arithmetic math homework in my desk all year and got in trouble :sad::laughing:. Now, I realized that Mathematics has less to do with arithmetic and more to do with philosophy. In school I was more concerned with why we all agree that 4 is 4. Rather than being happy about adding two numbers and then getting a result I should expect. I thought I wasn't good at it, but I just found it boring (some don't though).

  • Science is like spelling, and Mathematics is like writing. Scientist do a lot of number crunching and plugging in numbers in equations for exact results. INTJs more than likely will naturally hate having to go step by step in equations to spit out a specific number. I think an INTJ would have far more fun creating the formulas for scientists to use for whatever they need or whatever the INTJ needs it for. I think being a scientist is too Se for the INTJ overall imo.

  • Maths teaches you how to communicate your abstract ideas by talking with other mathematicians about abstract ideas and theories (i.e. number theory, chaos theory, decision theory). Which is an INTJ playground, where an INTJ can channel their natural strengths. We'd immediately find ways to exploit this in our every day lives on every level.

  • Mathematics is an intuitive and neutral subject and tool. Since maths is known to give you a sixth sense; it unlocks unique perspectives in things you already like. You can apply mathematics anywhere you want (i.e. art, music, dance, science, tech, business, finance, etc). In a sense, once you "master" mathematics you'll have the horsepower to master everything that was built on maths (everything). Maths has languages just like computer languages, that hack and bend physical reality and frameworks. Mathematics in general is just like the concept of Coding/Programming/Software Engineering, and our Reality/World/Universe is the computer.

  • INTJs are also labeled The Mastermind, and a mathematician fits that mold far more than a scientist would. I think INxPs, ISxPs, and ISxJs, would make great scientists. I think ENxPs, ESxPs, and ESxJs, would make great engineers. Again, I'm not putting anyone in a box. I'm just generalizing here. You gravitate to whatever you like, and there are many variables that contribute to who you are today, but I can't deny the tendencies.
I think Mathematics does a good job of helping us hone out Ni-Te skills to the highest power.


I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this. I've always been looking for ways to channel my strengths toward something bigger than myself and I think I've found the one. Even though I have many.

Here is a video by Numberphile on Youtube. It's a Mathematical Physicist explaining how Physics will inspire a new Mathematics (Quantum Mathematics), but when he describes how the mathematician works and thinks. It feels like he's whispering to INTJs:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,378 Posts
Our exemplar, Nikola Tesla, might disagree.

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."
~Nikki T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Our exemplar, Nikola Tesla, might disagree.

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."
~Nikki T.
I don't actually think he's disagreeing with me. I think it proves my point though. It shows what everyone gravitated to in general. I do agree with him though, and appreciate the fact that he noticed he needed to apply his knowledge. However, things are far more social now than they have been during his time. Which is why STEM is a thing. Everyone does their part. Pure mathematicians do have the tendency to become very consumed with mathematics that they look down on applying it. I personally will not be that person. I plan to use it for entrepreneurial tactics. I think it's important for Mathematicians to collaborate more with different sectors of the economy to show it's power. But a lot of them are addicted to the drug of theory.

Jordan Ellenberg did say himself that there needs to be more Maths majors who do not want to become Mathematicians in his book called How Not To Be Wrong.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Judson Joist

·
Spam-I-am
Joined
·
13,657 Posts
we are called ''the scientist'' because our minds analyze systems
every/all systems
we like to figure out how systems operate
besides how can someone with a unknown type decide to change our label
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
hypochondria
noun: hypochondria
abnormal chronic anxiety about one's health.
synonyms: INTJ

:smug:
Hah.

we are called ''the scientist'' because our minds analyze systems
every/all systems
we like to figure out how systems operate
besides how can someone with a unknown type decide to change our label
Right. You learn how to figure out systems in Mathematics. Not just one system, but all systems. Not sure what you mean by an unknown type. On my side it says that I am INTJ.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,131 Posts
@lil intro vert, my husband and I sat down together to watch the video you posted. Truly fascinating. My husband, an INTP, is super into that whole conversation. Like the guy in the video said, with math you can be platonic... you play with systems and frameworks and ideas in the abstract, and you convey them with symbols. I do notice Ti-doms in particular seem to gravitate towards stuff like this. It's wonderful to see mathematics get pushed by a science like physics, but also to see physics get propelled forwards by math. My husband could speak more on this subject. I merely appreciate it from a distance, not being mathematically (or even very scientifically) minded myself. I like to focus on aesthetics. I like to ask what has worth. What is beautiful. What is good. My husband likes to try and figure out how things work, what something is in essence... come up with internally consistent frameworks that he can lay over reality.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,152 Posts
It's more suited for Ti.
I don't know why that would be.

I'd welcome some correction of my understanding of Ti, but it seems just the thing for, once an object has been discovered and assimilated into consciousness, probing the object in order to find things to say about it; i.e., how its pieces work, what sorts of facts can be said.

However, there is no object, really, of mathematics. I think someone above alluded to Hilbert's famous thing about points, beer mugs, tables, chairs, whatever.

Is it possible to examine relations, while preserving the sense of their "thingness"? Sure, that's why people make maps and have little drawings and are constantly talking about "rate of change," and "pumping lemmas" and little applications.

I am, however, unsure of how one could characterize a system, without any qualification. Surely, nobody actually makes proofs by using axioms (I mean, you can, and it certainly saves space in some beginner's textbook to present like that, but I only really need to point to the existence of natural deduction as a proof method), but a formal system, using axioms, with a syntax, and a semantics, let's say is very nicely described in those terms.

So, in a way, to the extent that a formal system exists as an object to be examined, it's very likely constructed from various stages of "freshness" while being examined by the INTJ mathematician or logician.

In that respect, it doesn't seem very much like a galaxy cluster, or a factory, or whatever else natural scientists are concerned with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
@lil intro vert, my husband and I sat down together to watch the video you posted. Truly fascinating. My husband, an INTP, is super into that whole conversation. Like the guy in the video said, with math you can be platonic... you play with systems and frameworks and ideas in the abstract, and you convey them with symbols. I do notice Ti-doms in particular seem to gravitate towards stuff like this. It's wonderful to see mathematics get pushed by a science like physics, but also to see physics get propelled forwards by math. My husband could speak more on this subject. I merely appreciate it from a distance, not being mathematically (or even very scientifically) minded myself. I like to focus on aesthetics. I like to ask what has worth. What is beautiful. What is good. My husband likes to try and figure out how things work, what something is in essence... come up with internally consistent frameworks that he can lay over reality.
Not for me. I way more identify with "the scientists", "the architect"(which captures Ni+Te+Fi+Se perfectly, imho.....) Or "the researcher".

I've always thought of mathematics as NTP kind of thing. It's more suited for Ti.
Hmm, I'm not sure why people think that Mathematics is more of a Ti thing. I think Te would be good at analyzing, building, and implementing systems and frameworks. On the other hand I think the Ti would learn what was built already and make it more efficient. Ti is good at spotting inefficiencies or things that don't make sense. As well as manipulate existing ones. I think both would be great at mathematics though. Thanks for the insightful replies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jewl

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I don't know why that would be.

I'd welcome some correction of my understanding of Ti, but it seems just the thing for, once an object has been discovered and assimilated into consciousness, probing the object in order to find things to say about it; i.e., how its pieces work, what sorts of facts can be said.

However, there is no object, really, of mathematics. I think someone above alluded to Hilbert's famous thing about points, beer mugs, tables, chairs, whatever.

Is it possible to examine relations, while preserving the sense of their "thingness"? Sure, that's why people make maps and have little drawings and are constantly talking about "rate of change," and "pumping lemmas" and little applications.

I am, however, unsure of how one could characterize a system, without any qualification. Surely, nobody actually makes proofs by using axioms (I mean, you can, and it certainly saves space in some beginner's textbook to present like that, but I only really need to point to the existence of natural deduction as a proof method), but a formal system, using axioms, with a syntax, and a semantics, let's say is very nicely described in those terms.

So, in a way, to the extent that a formal system exists as an object to be examined, it's very likely constructed from various stages of "freshness" while being examined by the INTJ mathematician or logician.

In that respect, it doesn't seem very much like a galaxy cluster, or a factory, or whatever else natural scientists are concerned with.
Thank you for helping me convey this idea. You've explained it in a different, and more concise way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,378 Posts
@lil intro vert I was just looking for an excuse to quote Tesla.
:tongue:
hypochondria
noun: hypochondria
abnormal chronic anxiety about one's health.
synonyms: INTJ

:smug:
You could have just left it at "abnormal chronic anxiety."
:wink:
 
  • Like
Reactions: lil intro vert

·
Plague Doctor
INTJ, 5w4, Ni-T type
Joined
·
6,039 Posts
hmm, it seems to me that mathematics is just another system or framework for an INTJ to learn or understand. I'm good at math, but I don't particularly like math. I love messing with statistics, though, especially for finding funny a-causal relationships and for prediction.

There are some famous INTJs who have applied mathematics to solve problems, though. I'm thinking about John Nash and the Economists.

(I'm not really invested in what INTJs are called)

Edit: "John Nash and the Economists" would make a good name for a band.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
hmm, it seems to me that mathematics is just another system or framework for an INTJ to learn or understand. I'm good at math, but I don't particularly like math. I love messing with statistics, though, especially for finding funny a-causal relationships and for prediction.
Agreed.
That's interesting. Do you just like looking at statistics in general or do you like looking at the numbers from something more specific?

There are some famous INTJs who have applied mathematics to solve problems, though. I'm thinking about John Nash and the Economists.
I've seen him. He's bad ass.

(I'm not really invested in what INTJs are called)
Me either. Just wanted to present that idea.

Edit: "John Nash and the Economists" would make a good name for a band.
Absolutely lol.
 
  • Like
Reactions: brightflashes

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,902 Posts
Dario Nardi's research shows that Ni-dom types (INTJs and INFJs) main strength and pleasure comes from being faced with a new, unsolved-to-them problem/puzzle. INFJs prefer ones that deal with the social framework/rules, and INTJs prefer ones that deal with non-social constraints, such as rules of physics, programming constraints, artistic medium constraints ect.

Our whole brain "lights up" (is activated) and works together to find a solution/the best solution. With all other types, new problems are stressful or cause a different kind of brain activity - like the Ne-doms that basically think about it in as many ways as possible ie. throw lots of possibilities at the problem to see what sticks. Also with all other types, doing something they love and are comfortable with, such as a form of dance/song or a deep conversation about ethics for a Fi dom causes the same whole brain state of flow.

Personally, I've experienced this many times - the experience is one of being highly interested, time just zooming by, and feeling energized and happy after a day of work instead of drained and twitchy.

I'm not a scientist, a mathematician, or an engineer, although I have degrees in 2 out of 3 of those. I'm a problem-solver. I don't enjoy implementing the solution as much as I enjoy thinking about it, but I can usually think of a fast, efficient, effective solution or whatever parameters you give me to work with. Logic and empirical evidence are just tools to use for measuring correctness/effectiveness or explaining to others.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
763 Posts
I guess "Mathematicians" is not politically correct :D Lots of people don't like math.

Watching this video makes me think mathematicians could be the better term:

Although I've spent a lot of time wondering whether I'm INTP or INTJ so I'm not sure I can be a good judge of this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,131 Posts
Hmm, I'm not sure why people think that Mathematics is more of a Ti thing. I think Te would be good at analyzing, building, and implementing systems and frameworks. On the other hand I think the Ti would learn what was built already and make it more efficient. Ti is good at spotting inefficiencies or things that don't make sense. As well as manipulate existing ones. I think both would be great at mathematics though. Thanks for the insightful replies.
I don't think it's more of a Ti thing necessarily. I think I just said I notice Ti-doms gravitating towards it. And the closest person to me very much into math is my INTP husband, so I associate it somewhat with Ti. But I don't see why any type could gravitate towards it, especially someone with a Thinking preference - like Jung says, Thinking is a focus on categorizing/defining things - which to me seems related to math. Both Te and Ti share this preference. The difference is in the attitude. I do indeed know quite a few Te-users in my life who are into math. Heck, my father-in-law is an ISFJ who is into programming for submarine's sonar and it requires a lot of logic and hardcore math. Math is something that is appealing for many different personality types.

I will say I don't think Ti necessarily takes what was built already - Ti is very much about constructing one's own subjective framework through which you can understand everything. It's subjective Thinking, whereas Te is very objective, and likes external criteria and standards. When Jung was describing the difference between Te and Ti, he contrasted Darwin (a Te-dom) with Kant (Ti).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I don't think it's more of a Ti thing necessarily. I think I just said I notice Ti-doms gravitating towards it. And the closest person to me very much into math is my INTP husband, so I associate it somewhat with Ti. But I don't see why any type could gravitate towards it, especially someone with a Thinking preference - like Jung says, Thinking is a focus on categorizing/defining things - which to me seems related to math. Both Te and Ti share this preference. The difference is in the attitude. I do indeed know quite a few Te-users in my life who are into math. Heck, my father-in-law is an ISFJ who is into programming for submarine's sonar and it requires a lot of logic and hardcore math. Math is something that is appealing for many different personality types.
I think what I am trying to portray is the Pure Mathematics seems more Te to me, and the Applied seems more Ti. That's all. I think when it comes to be a mathematician; Te users would have a far better time doing it all day than an INTP. After a while the INTP will get restless and want to do something. I definitely see why you have the perspective you have though. Again, Maths is for everyone. I'm just talking about naturally. All the jokes that involve an INTJ and all the jokes that involve a mathematician are strangely similar in the behavior the joke portrays for those individuals.

I will say I don't think Ti necessarily takes what was built already - Ti is very much about constructing one's own subjective framework through which you can understand everything. It's subjective Thinking, whereas Te is very objective, and likes external criteria and standards. When Jung was describing the difference between Te and Ti, he contrasted Darwin (a Te-dom) with Kant (Ti).
Oh okay; I see where you're coming from. I think the INTP is more concerned with "how" (applied maths aka sciences) more than "why" (pure maths). They both can be applied to Maths very well, but I think the Ti would very much rather execute their knowledge to build their own off of an existing framework made (i.e. scientific method or work with an equation already made).

I see pure maths as a top down approach; which the INTJ prefers imo. Applied would be from the bottom up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jewl

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
I guess "Mathematicians" is not politically correct :D Lots of people don't like math.

Watching this video makes me think mathematicians could be the better term:

Although I've spent a lot of time wondering whether I'm INTP or INTJ so I'm not sure I can be a good judge of this.
Maybe this link will help: https://personalityjunkie.com/03/judging-perceiving-ijs-ips/

I definitely understand where you're coming from. Maybe we can discuss this and bring it back around. Feynman is awesome btw.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Dario Nardi's research shows that Ni-dom types (INTJs and INFJs) main strength and pleasure comes from being faced with a new, unsolved-to-them problem/puzzle. INFJs prefer ones that deal with the social framework/rules, and INTJs prefer ones that deal with non-social constraints, such as rules of physics, programming constraints, artistic medium constraints ect.

Our whole brain "lights up" (is activated) and works together to find a solution/the best solution. With all other types, new problems are stressful or cause a different kind of brain activity - like the Ne-doms that basically think about it in as many ways as possible ie. throw lots of possibilities at the problem to see what sticks. Also with all other types, doing something they love and are comfortable with, such as a form of dance/song or a deep conversation about ethics for a Fi dom causes the same whole brain state of flow.

Personally, I've experienced this many times - the experience is one of being highly interested, time just zooming by, and feeling energized and happy after a day of work instead of drained and twitchy.

I'm not a scientist, a mathematician, or an engineer, although I have degrees in 2 out of 3 of those. I'm a problem-solver. I don't enjoy implementing the solution as much as I enjoy thinking about it, but I can usually think of a fast, efficient, effective solution or whatever parameters you give me to work with. Logic and empirical evidence are just tools to use for measuring correctness/effectiveness or explaining to others.
I think all of this definitely plays to Pure Mathematics. Especially the last paragraph. Take a look at this STEM joke below:

 


A physicist, an engineer and a mathematician were all in a hotel sleeping when a fire broke out in their respective rooms.

The physicist woke up, saw the fire, ran over to his desk, pulled out his CRC, and began working out all sorts of fluid dynamics equations. After a couple minutes, he threw down his pencil, got a graduated cylinder out of his suitcase, and measured out a precise amount of water. He threw it on the fire, extinguishing it, with not a drop wasted, and went back to sleep.

The engineer woke up, saw the fire, ran into the bathroom, turned on the faucets full-blast, flooding out the entire apartment, which put out the fire, and went back to sleep.

The mathematician woke up, saw the fire, ran over to his desk, began working through theorems, lemmas, hypotheses , you-name-it, and after a few minutes, put down his pencil triumphantly and exclaimed, "I have *proven* that I *can* put the fire out!" He then went back to sleep.


Very long-lived joke about the different professions within STEM. I don't think it's a coincidence that a mathematician is an INTJ who has reached SSJ3.
 
1 - 20 of 64 Posts
Top