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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been wondering if the popular theory that type 4 and 5 are rarest is actually true or not, and I found multiple academic sources proving that 4 and 5 are in fact the more populous types:

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According to this Turkish research paper, type 2, 7 , 9 and 4 are the most numerous types amongst sampled Turkish population. Type 6 and 8 are the rarest.
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According to another research conducted with an international (mostly white) population, type 4, 9, 6 and 2 are the most numerous types, type 8 is the rarest.

I think it's sufficient to conclude that 4 and 5 are by no means the rarest type. The most populous types are probably 9, 6, 4 and 2. The rarest type is indeed 8. There's significant cultural difference e.g. the Turks seem to be more cheerful and less anxious than the international population. I theorise that there are more type 3 and 6 and less type 2 in East Asian population.

My theory is that type 8 is much more numerous in people's perception than the reality because the type 8 trait or stereotype is very obvious and attention-grabbing. It's hard to miss an angry person in a large population. It's much easier to miss the quiet romantic or nerd.
 

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I've been wondering if the popular theory that type 4 and 5 are rarest is actually true or not, and I found multiple academic sources proving that 4 and 5 are in fact the more populous types:

View attachment 885446
According to this Turkish research paper, type 2, 7 , 9 and 4 are the most numerous types amongst sampled Turkish population. Type 6 and 8 are the rarest.
View attachment 885447
View attachment 885450
According to another research conducted with an international (mostly white) population, type 4, 9, 6 and 2 are the most numerous types, type 8 is the rarest.

I think it's sufficient to conclude that 4 and 5 are by no means the rarest type. The most populous types are probably 9, 6, 4 and 2. The rarest type is indeed 8. There's significant cultural difference e.g. the Turks seem to be more cheerful and less anxious than the international population. I theorise that there are more type 3 and 6 and less type 2 in East Asian population.

My theory is that type 8 is much more numerous in people's perception than the reality because the type 8 trait or stereotype is very obvious and attention-grabbing. It's hard to miss an angry person in a large population. It's much easier to miss the quiet romantic or nerd.
cuz lots of people dont want to be the insecure so called feartype 6 but lots of people want to be a romantic with deep feelings and artistic talent or intelligent like a 5 etc pp. cliched thinking and wishes etc pp.... . so how do you know what type they really have....etc pp..
 

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Boaz & Jachin
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I'd say it mostly depends on the culture, that can have a huge influence on people's types due to upbringing.

Type 8 being the rarest among cultures seems reasonable since 8 is the most anti-social of the types, and thus the most rejected of the types.

4 and 5 probably feel the rarest types because they often feel rejected too and also being the most withdrawn; isolated; asocial, however 4 and 5 are more socially accepted and incorporated into society than 8 is.
4 with the arts, 5 with the sciences.

There isn't much place for 8.
 

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I'd say it mostly depends on the culture, that can have a huge influence on people's types due to upbringing.

Type 8 being the rarest among cultures seems reasonable since 8 is the most anti-social of the types, and thus the most rejected of the types.

4 and 5 probably feel the rarest types because they often feel rejected too and also being the most withdrawn; isolated; asocial, however 4 and 5 are more socially accepted and incorporated into society than 8 is.
4 with the arts, 5 with the sciences.

There isn't much place for 8.
Disagree.
Nothing within the Eights makes them unable to engage in sciences or whatever and, conversely, Five isn't about "science" or some special intellectual aptitude at its core.
All types revolved around some "sin" with the capacity to be destructive for society and rejected in their own ways.
Any place is good for Eight as long as it is in accordance with his motivations and personal conception of "power", which actually doesn't have to be about physical violence or anything similarly stupidly impulsive.
 

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Boaz & Jachin
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Disagree.
Nothing within the Eights makes them unable to engage in sciences or whatever and, conversely, Five isn't about "science" or some special intellectual aptitude at its core.
All types revolved around some "sin" with the capacity to be destructive for society and rejected in their own ways.
Any place is good for Eight as long as it is in accordance with his motivations and personal conception of "power", which actually doesn't have to be about physical violence or anything similarly stupidly impulsive.
Disagree.

Your argument is arguing something I did not argue.

I do not feel compelled to counter-argue something I did not propose.
 

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Disagree.

Your argument is arguing something I did not argue.

I do not feel compelled to counter-argue something I did not propose.
I disagree with the disagreement.
Here are the points of contention :

"All types revolved around some "sin" with the capacity to be destructive for society and rejected in their own ways."
->
"is the most anti-social of the types, and thus the most rejected of the types. "
I am not convinced why they are supposed to be most anti-social.

"Any place is good for Eight ..."
->
"There isn't much place for 8."

"... Five isn't about "science" or some special intellectual aptitude at its core. ..."
->
" 5 are more socially accepted and incorporated into society than 8 is. ... with the sciences."
 

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Boaz & Jachin
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I disagree with the disagreement.
Here are the points of contention :

"All types revolved around some "sin" with the capacity to be destructive for society and rejected in their own ways."
->
"is the most anti-social of the types, and thus the most rejected of the types. "
I am not convinced why they are supposed to be most anti-social.
The Key Type Eight Traits:
  • Anger and the Willingness to Confront
  • Rebelliousness
  • Punitiveness/Revenge
  • Dominance
  • Insensitivity
  • Autonomy
  • Sensory-Motor Dominance
Source:
The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge by Beatrice Chestnut

Also, in Character and Neurosis: An Integrative View by Claudio Naranjo, he points type 8 being closely tied with ASPD.
Whilst I disagree all 8s having ASPD or that 8s should have ASPD, I do agree that 8 has an anti-social nature to it.

If you look at all the types and their key traits, you will find that 8 is the most anti-social from the lot.
I do not make the argument that only 8s can be anti-social, only that it is most probable for 8 and compared to other types.

"Any place is good for Eight ..."
->
"There isn't much place for 8."
Not my argument.
My argument was suggesting that there are few roles in society that promote Type 8 qualities and characteristics.
I did not imply that 8s cannot do anything, such as Science like you mention.

Though, I do think Social 8 would favor more; in activism, championing the weak, protecting others.
However, Social 8 is a countertype, which means they counter their 8 nature of Lust.

"... Five isn't about "science" or some special intellectual aptitude at its core. ..."
->
" 5 are more socially accepted and incorporated into society than 8 is. ... with the sciences."
Not my argument.
I only suggest that the nature of 5 is most likely to be appealed towards the Sciences, because such field is interested in seeking knowledge and new discoveries, which is something a 5 would usually find interesting.
I am not suggesting all 5s need or have this interest, only that is most probable.

The same argument goes for 4s and the Arts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I'd say it mostly depends on the culture, that can have a huge influence on people's types due to upbringing.

Type 8 being the rarest among cultures seems reasonable since 8 is the most anti-social of the types, and thus the most rejected of the types.

4 and 5 probably feel the rarest types because they often feel rejected too and also being the most withdrawn; isolated; asocial, however 4 and 5 are more socially accepted and incorporated into society than 8 is.
4 with the arts, 5 with the sciences.

There isn't much place for 8.
I'd say it mostly depends on the culture, that can have a huge influence on people's types due to upbringing.

Type 8 being the rarest among cultures seems reasonable since 8 is the most anti-social of the types, and thus the most rejected of the types.

4 and 5 probably feel the rarest types because they often feel rejected too and also being the most withdrawn; isolated; asocial, however 4 and 5 are more socially accepted and incorporated into society than 8 is.
4 with the arts, 5 with the sciences.

There isn't much place for 8.
'There isn't much place for 8.'

I have to disagree. Statistically, ENTJ and ESTJ are the most wealthy types. ENTJ and ESTJ are mostly type 8, so it is fair to deduct that type 8 is the most successful type. Where did you get the idea that 8 is rejected? Are wealthy people generally rejected? No, they are respected and worshiped in most countries.

8 is rare because it's impossible for everyone to become rich. Someone has to be poor to make someone else rich. High net-worth individuals are very rare. INFP and ISFP are the poorest type, INFP and ISFP are mostly type 4, therefore type 4 is indeed the most rejected type.

As for antisocial, again where did you get the idea that 8 equals antisocial personality disorder? Scientific research suggests that antisocial personality disorder correlates with high neuroticism and low agreeableness. 8 is generally low neuroticism and low agreeableness. 6 on average has the highest neuroticism and low-average agreeableness, so isn't 6 the most antisocial type? Comparing to 8, 5 has similarly low agreeableness, isn't 5 also kind of antisocial?

You frequently refer to science yet you can't provide any scientific source of your generic claims. The irony is bewildering.
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I disagree with the disagreement.
Here are the points of contention :

"All types revolved around some "sin" with the capacity to be destructive for society and rejected in their own ways."
->
"is the most anti-social of the types, and thus the most rejected of the types. "
I am not convinced why they are supposed to be most anti-social.

"Any place is good for Eight ..."
->
"There isn't much place for 8."

"... Five isn't about "science" or some special intellectual aptitude at its core. ..."
->
" 5 are more socially accepted and incorporated into society than 8 is. ... with the sciences."
I think he's probably bashing the 8 population to overcompensate for his personal insecurities. 'I fail because the 8 community is bad, not because I personally fail.' In fact, 8 is the most successful type.
 

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ciao bello ! btw try core 6w5---not only your posts but also your konterfeilikenessavatar..( 8&3 fixes seems right though) --..,if this marginally note may help ---thank you very mucho...!
 

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Boaz & Jachin
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'There isn't much place for 8.'

I have to disagree. Statistically, ENTJ and ESTJ are the most wealthy types. ENTJ and ESTJ are mostly type 8, so it is fair to deduct that type 8 is the most successful type. Where did you get the idea that 8 is rejected? Are wealthy people generally rejected? No, they are respected and worshiped in most countries.
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How do you know it's the type 8 ETJs that are successful and not the type 3 ETJs? There's a lot of correlation between ETJ and 3 aswell.
For instance the Big5 and Enneagram correlation also shows that both 3 and 8 share the same positions; SCOEI.

8 is rare because it's impossible for everyone to become rich. Someone has to be poor to make someone else rich. High net-worth individuals are very rare. INFP and ISFP are the poorest type, INFP and ISFP are mostly type 4, therefore type 4 is indeed the most rejected type.
Also, being rich is not a personality.
Perhaps type 3, 7, and 8 are more inclined towards wealth to fuel their needs (3: Vanity, 7: Gluttony, 8: Lust), however what are you going to say about those who are rich and not type 3, 7, and 8?

As for antisocial, again where did you get the idea that 8 equals antisocial personality disorder? Scientific research suggests that antisocial personality disorder correlates with high neuroticism and low agreeableness. 8 is generally low neuroticism and low agreeableness. 6 on average has the highest neuroticism and low-average agreeableness, so isn't 6 the most antisocial type? Comparing to 8, 5 has similarly low agreeableness, isn't 5 also kind of antisocial?
I linked my source for my reasoning, I guess you didn't read my post?

You frequently refer to science yet you can't provide any scientific source of your generic claims. The irony is bewildering.
Where did I say I have any Scientific sources, my sources were theoretical.
And, how do you exactly say your sources are scientific too? Is posting a few tables and graphs mean your information is Scientific?

I think he's probably bashing the 8 population to overcompensate for his personal insecurities. 'I fail because the 8 community is bad, not because I personally fail.' In fact, 8 is the most successful type.
Also, why are you assuming I am doing this for insecurity reasons?
You know that type 8 falls under the Rejection Harmony Group, right?
This isn't because of me, but rather an issue that type 8 usually faces.

Keep ad hominems out of this.

I also like how you have turned this conversation into who makes the most money, as if making money is a determinant of how socially accepted or rejected you are.
People can earn very low money but have the personality that makes them more socially accepted, and people can earn very high money but have the personality that makes them more socially rejected.

Consider the reasons why certain types make more money, than just assuming they must make a lot of money by default; as if they are born to earn.
Type 8s may be inclined to earn more money than most so to be financially independent and have more autonomy over their lives, they may earn more money as a means to fuel their Lust, and they may earn more money as they view money as a vehicle to gain power and influence.
There are many type 8s who don't need to be rich, because they access their passion for Lust elsewhere. Wealth can be a strong motivator for 8, however not all of them need wealth. They can gain power and influence else where in their lives.
Nothing about this means they are anymore socially accepted, because their motives aren't towards being accepted, but rather serving their own needs.

If you create the argument that wealth = acceptance or value of the individual, then I suppose you are a Type 3, because type 3s are motivated towards wealth as a means to earn acceptance and value.
 

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'There isn't much place for 8.'

I have to disagree. Statistically, ENTJ and ESTJ are the most wealthy types. ENTJ and ESTJ are mostly type 8, so it is fair to deduct that type 8 is the most successful type. Where did you get the idea that 8 is rejected? Are wealthy people generally rejected? No, they are respected and worshiped in most countries.

8 is rare because it's impossible for everyone to become rich. Someone has to be poor to make someone else rich. High net-worth individuals are very rare. INFP and ISFP are the poorest type, INFP and ISFP are mostly type 4, therefore type 4 is indeed the most rejected type.

As for antisocial, again where did you get the idea that 8 equals antisocial personality disorder? Scientific research suggests that antisocial personality disorder correlates with high neuroticism and low agreeableness. 8 is generally low neuroticism and low agreeableness. 6 on average has the highest neuroticism and low-average agreeableness, so isn't 6 the most antisocial type? Comparing to 8, 5 has similarly low agreeableness, isn't 5 also kind of antisocial?

You frequently refer to science yet you can't provide any scientific source of your generic claims. The irony is bewildering.
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This post is so stupid.
You start from the fact that everyone measures their success in "net-worth winning".

If you want to do that properly, you have to compare ISFP that measure success by "net-worth winnings" with ExTJ that measure success the same way.

People have different things they pursue in life and different way to measure success.

For example, an xNFJ will measure its success in amount of how many lives they managed to influence for the better (to improve them), how many lives they saved, etc. and then of course they don't give a fuck about the amount of money they create.

I also don't know where you came to the conclusion that if you are antisocial you can't be rich, but yeah.
You can be antisocial and at the same time play by the rules of society and win ... infinitely.
Or to change the rules, because in the end if you are antisocial, you want to change society, right? So you want power. Especially as 8, you see it as a challenge.

Poor Ni-laser focusing led you on wrong paths. I understand you.
 

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I think he's probably bashing the 8 population to overcompensate for his personal insecurities. 'I fail because the 8 community is bad, not because I personally fail.' In fact, 8 is the most successful type.
I might've disagreed with him, but your baseless personal attack only serves to validate his point, I don't subscribe to it.
On a second note, aren't you a bit too concerned with the image of Eights? I don't really care which type is the most successful or rare since only I am responsible for my own successes.
 

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Both @OswaldS and @Eset are right for different reasons.

Type 8 is the most succesful type, yet the most out of place within society because of its unwillingness to be subjugated. Personal freedom is valued above all and unhealthy power dynamics scream out to it while other enneatypes, such as the type 5, enjoy having a society where they're expected to play a very specific role of expertise as a cog in the machine in exchange for comfort and minimum unwanted social contact.

Throw a person who "made it"(in this case the alluded ENTJ type 8) back in time to highschool and you'll see how its peers try to sink it down due to awakening their personal insecurities by just existing.
 

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Boaz & Jachin
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Type Eight is a rather polarizing type, I've had my fair share from both ends of the stick, and on Typology communities most of it comes from prejudice.
I think you are overlooking how other people perceive and judge this type if you only look at how successful this type could be.
Type Eight can often come across as intimidating and aggressive without intention towards others, resulting in people deciding to distance and withdraw themselves from the Eight.
It can sometimes be difficult to establish and maintain relationships with others being this type.
 

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without exception, all enneagram type statistics are incorrect. the only way to collect data to create them is one of three ways:

1. via test (and, as everyone knows, #testssuck [and without exception])
2. via self-report (funny joke)
3. via personally-verified typings by one or more skilled typists.

the first two are non-starters; the third absolutely infeasible at scale. the sheer absence of skilled typists makes this impossible.

the only thing we have to rely on that provides any semblance of a hope of an answer is a collective sense of felt rarities as determined by skilled typists in the course of their experience typing people and living out their lives and applying the enneagram daily. I personally have my own "proportions" I and the other skilled typists I know have constructed, but few would agree, I'm sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
How do you know it's the type 8 ETJs that are successful and not the type 3 ETJs? There's a lot of correlation between ETJ and 3 aswell.
For instance the Big5 and Enneagram correlation also shows that both 3 and 8 share the same positions; SCOEI.


Also, being rich is not a personality.
Perhaps type 3, 7, and 8 are more inclined towards wealth to fuel their needs (3: Vanity, 7: Gluttony, 8: Lust), however what are you going to say about those who are rich and not type 3, 7, and 8?


I linked my source for my reasoning, I guess you didn't read my post?


Where did I say I have any Scientific sources, my sources were theoretical.
And, how do you exactly say your sources are scientific too? Is posting a few tables and graphs mean your information is Scientific?


Also, why are you assuming I am doing this for insecurity reasons?
You know that type 8 falls under the Rejection Harmony Group, right?
This isn't because of me, but rather an issue that type 8 usually faces.

Keep ad hominems out of this.

I also like how you have turned this conversation into who makes the most money, as if making money is a determinant of how socially accepted or rejected you are.
People can earn very low money but have the personality that makes them more socially accepted, and people can earn very high money but have the personality that makes them more socially rejected.

Consider the reasons why certain types make more money, than just assuming they must make a lot of money by default; as if they are born to earn.
Type 8s may be inclined to earn more money than most so to be financially independent and have more autonomy over their lives, they may earn more money as a means to fuel their Lust, and they may earn more money as they view money as a vehicle to gain power and influence.
There are many type 8s who don't need to be rich, because they access their passion for Lust elsewhere. Wealth can be a strong motivator for 8, however not all of them need wealth. They can gain power and influence else where in their lives.
Nothing about this means they are anymore socially accepted, because their motives aren't towards being accepted, but rather serving their own needs.

If you create the argument that wealth = acceptance or value of the individual, then I suppose you are a Type 3, because type 3s are motivated towards wealth as a means to earn acceptance and value.
'Making money is a determinant of how socially accepted or rejected you are'. Of course, of course. This hypothesis is a no-brainer. We live in a world dominated by capitalist countries and consumerist ideals. Money is the most important standard of success and social acceptance. You can live poor and happy (which is difficult considering ever-rising medical and housing expenses), but you can't live below the poverty line and consider yourself accepted by the mainstream society as 'successful'.

I'm not saying being 8 automatically makes a person rich. I'm just saying statistics indicates that on average, enneagram 8 are richer than 4 and 5. The mainstream belief is that 'Making money is a determinant of how socially accepted or rejected you are'. Therefore I can safely conclude that on average, enneagram 8 is one of the more socially accepted types, although people often refuse to acknowledge this. Probably cognitive dissonance and deeply embedded prejudice.

I realise that people often label enneagram types with irrational and statistically incorrect stereotypes. The Big Five community seems less infatuated with unhealthy and polarising stereotypes. I'll just self-identify as neOaC(low neuroticism high openness high conscientiousness). I think the biggest difference between successful and unsuccessful 8 is neuroticism. High neuroticism low agreeableness 8 who tend to be 86x are indeed rejected by society. Low neuroticism 8 are fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
This post is so stupid.
You start from the fact that everyone measures their success in "net-worth winning".

If you want to do that properly, you have to compare ISFP that measure success by "net-worth winnings" with ExTJ that measure success the same way.

People have different things they pursue in life and different way to measure success.

For example, an xNFJ will measure its success in amount of how many lives they managed to influence for the better (to improve them), how many lives they saved, etc. and then of course they don't give a fuck about the amount of money they create.

I also don't know where you came to the conclusion that if you are antisocial you can't be rich, but yeah.
You can be antisocial and at the same time play by the rules of society and win ... infinitely.
Or to change the rules, because in the end if you are antisocial, you want to change society, right? So you want power. Especially as 8, you see it as a challenge.

Poor Ni-laser focusing led you on wrong paths. I understand you.
How do you define wrong paths? Who decides which path is right or wrong? I don't want to waste time on unfalsifiable philosophical arguments with people who randomly insults others online. Your negativity will not lead to success, material or spiritual.

I'm thankful that many people don't value money as the most important standard of success. Much less competition.
 
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